[Closed] electric assisted bikes. why fight progress?

As someone with a degenerative illness I think they are a fantastic thing. I will most likely be needing one in the future, they will keep me riding much longer. Brilliant.

Some people want bikes to only go where motorised vehicles can go, and others want them to be able to go where you can go on foot, like in Scotland. Electric bikes on the trails will strengthen the hand of those that want bikes shut out of the moors, woods, paths etc.

This is the problem. As soon as the motor involved it brings about a very different style of riding, even if only at 15mph, which to be honest is fast off road, very few people would reach that for any time off road on the flat.

somafunk » if I decided ride my ebike on so called natural trails should I be open to be prosecuted?

If you're riding a road legal one, I don't think there's any question of that, as they're legally classified as bicycles

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

Grey area. Any form of motorised vehicle is prohibited from bridleways and byways unless specifically allowed. I interpreted the gov advice in that link as being relevant to exemtion from VED for road use rather than use offroad.

If they get good enough, or make bolt on kits that don't interfere with serious bikes, there would be a huge market with downhillers. Options now are push up and get 4-5 runs a day, or pay for an uplift service. Very few have places they can do their own shuttles.

I also see them being perfect for commuting and casual xc rides, coffee tours, but surely no serious trail xc rider would use them unless it's a very Enduro thing focussed on descents.

I'd love a go on one, not sure I'd actually pay for one though.

I can't see any problem with them at all, no need for suffering if you don't have to.
There's no honour in suffering (unless you're Japanese or Klingon)

I just dont get them then again i ride to train for racing and for fun. The fun is the challange of getting up that hill. It is fine for it to hurt i quite like that it makes comkng down all the more enjoyable as you had to get to the top yourself. Ido think the people who use e bikes are mising the whole point of a bike. To me you might as well ride a motor bike. Motorcross is a challanging sport for those that what an engine to help them up a hill.

They also also not fun to fix. I for one refuse to work on them as they just take to much time and parts source for anything electric is not that great.

The problem with my views is i think cars are evil are the root of modern laziness. They are too comfortable, affordable and therefore people use them, my logic applies to e bikes too. You dont have to agree with it though i think i am mostly own my own.

I also see them being perfect for commuting and casual xc rides, coffee tours, but surely no serious trail xc rider would use them unless it's a very Enduro thing focussed on descents.

I don't think I have ever been on a serious xc trail ride. Sounds fun.

Are the people on here who see no problem with them off road thinking of them at trail centers or ROW?

[quote=Shackleton ]Grey area. Any form of motorised vehicle is prohibited from bridleways and byways unless specifically allowed. I interpreted the gov advice in that link as being relevant to exemtion from VED for road use rather than use offroad.

You don't appear to have read what you're commenting on. It says:

If a bike meets the EAPC requirements it’s classed as a normal pedal bike. This means you can ride it on cycle paths and anywhere else pedal bikes are allowed.

If they meet the EPAC rules they're not classified as motorised vehicles.

Yep, legally no difference between an EPAC and a mountain bike.

Where you can ride one you can ride the other.

With that in mind, any land use conflicts caused by ebikes will be felt keenly by all on two wheels.

Are the people on here who see no problem with them off road thinking of them at trail centers or ROW?

Whatever you want to do with them, it's not as if anyone is forcing anyone else to ride them

Quite fancy a go on one of these but could totally see it causing huge problems in most places I normally ride my mtb.

http://www.evobike.co.uk/the-bikes/the-bomber/

They look ok, I'm not going to go as far as to say fun because I've ridden petrol engines dirt bikes and I should imagine these are a damp squib in comparison but if you've never ridden a motocrosser then I sort of see the appeal....its a bit of a halfway house though for me, neither fish nor fowl.

For physically disabled or chronically injured riders I can see the point but if able bodied riders use them I just have this image of those lazy buggers who use a mobility scooter in town for nothing more than their obesity.

I agree with the trail access concerns. Mr Angry from Tunbridge Wells isn't going to care about the difference between eBikes and MTBs, or he'll know is that last month the cyclists that use the trails where he walks his dog pootle around at barely an average 10mph and are tolerable....but once those same cyclists get eBikes and start zipping by at 15mph he'll soon put pen to paper and start campaigning for all MTBs to be barred from a particular area....and you just know people will derestrict their bikes and end up going faster still.

Interesting times, tread carefully would be my advice to the advocates or you risk alienating huge swathes of the country who view cycling as human powered only and rather simplistically view everything else as motorbikes.

I don't really see it as progress for cycling, for me cycling is human powered and ebikes are something else.

I see them as a aid, thats all.

To me riding bikes is all about the intimacy of person and bike and environment.

eBikes to some extent take away the intimacy, supplementing effort induced peddling with a dissection between input vs output. The environment element is still there so I see that as not changing.

For some folks they work fine, I know of 3 mates that use them. One is arthritic and chooses to ride to work. For him it's a godsend as it gets him out in the environment and still has a subsidised effort to his peddling effort, for him it works. The other two mates use them to get to and from my sailing club with kit on a rack. For them it saves the angst of parking and a 3/5 mile flat journey home when knackered from a long day on the water.

I've had a go on one, Leftfiled bikes introduced an eBike a while ago and whilst then it was a huge version considering whats available now, it was a numb ride and heavy. They took it to Swinley for a day a couple of years ago and I had 1/2hr on it and it was enough for me to disregard them.

However, however the future will be increasingly e' powered. I see them getting used on trails (cheeky or not) and part of me is concerned about the condition of some trails. But TBH I can't see them creating more mess than Bridleways that are in constant use by Horses. During Winter/Wet periods and popular Horse used routes/ Bridleways the conditions become annoyingly unbearable to ride on. But I still ride them because I think every right of access should be used by all of society, ALL society whether i or you like it or not.

So, should my health deteriorate to the point of me considering one I think I'll give up riding altogether and buy a Yacht.

Will it be a future vision if something is to hard to achieve we attach a motor to it?

I have a Kalkhof electric city bike.
For carting big bags of shopping back from Rothwell Morrisons its brilliant!
For commuting from South Leeds to Harrogate its equally fab and means that for my effort I can get to work still fresh to do a days work.
I hope we see more of them replacing cars. I don't see them as a replacement for "normal" bikes, but as a tool for commuting or carrying shopping they are epic.
(That said I would love to ride one of the Focus E-MTB's round Dalby!).

E-bikes have a future and will replace more cars than bikes.

The idea of people riding up (and tearing up) local trails is a pretty valid concern imo. Especially if e-bikes attract people who previously weren't interested in mtb and have no concept of what it takes to build/maintain a trail or indeed how to keep one hidden. Maybe that's elitist or something but I'd like to think my fellow mountain bikers would have some ecological sympathy if they were on board one.

On the plus side I imagine strapping a Maxx-D on one and going for a scram on a wet Wednesday night might be more fun than slogging around in the mud with cold heavy legs. It might also open up some interesting technological changes and spec choices. If you've got a big powerful motor on your bike then suddenly single ply tires with hard compounds become less important - hello 3" super tacky tyres and tons of grip. It would also open up some new route choices for climbing.

EDIT: Maybe it won't be e-bikes tearing up the trails, rather e-motor bikes which are very much a fully formed reality. Looks like great fun though

I'd like an ebike to drag my sorry ass up the mile climb I have straight from my doorstep on the commute. 🙂

Maybe that's elitist or something but I'd like to think my fellow mountain bikers would have some ecological sympathy

I fear they will all get tuned up and ridden by **** .

Pro:
Fun, genuinely useful and revolutionary form of transport that will hugely increase the ability of some people to enjoy two wheels.

Excellent commuting possibilities - my commute is 20 miles each way, with a knackering 12 hour shift in between.
I'm usually too tired to cycle it all, so this would be perfect.
Save me a fortune.

Anti:
I can just see Ladybower on a Sunday, full of ex golfers on their e-duro bikes, wearing their e-specific shoes, on their e-specific saddles, wearing their stupid, ugly, e-specific sponsored pyjamas.

The same people who are arseholes on bikes now will have the potential to be even moreso on these things.

The people who whinge about perfectly legal off road motorcycles will whinge even more about these.

The walking lobby will go mental.

They are a completely new type of transport - we have no idea how popular they will be.

They will lead to more legislation, both necessary and knee-jerk which will muddy access laws even more than they are now.

All the positives will be ruined by punitive taxation/legistation.
🙂

Can you imagine the embolism Mike V@nderm@n is going to have first time he sees one of these on a trail?

In all seriousness, I think there are huge potential advantages for people with limited fitness/endurance or disability, but also some very valid concerns over conflict with other rights of way users. I wonder if the assisted speed should maybe be limited to 8mph as with class 3 mobility scooters?

Though I'm tempted to think that someone could set up an e-bike hire centre in the new forest just to troll the locals 😈

Whatever you want to do with them, it's not as if anyone is forcing anyone else to ride them

Could say the same about motorbike on all trails.

The same people who are arseholes on bikes now will have the potential to be even moreso on these things.

Agreed, for many people even if accustomed to riding "real" push bike it would result in a riding style change.

As battery tech comes on it will be great if this leads to some opening/reopening of the MX-tracks in the SouthEast "lost to 4-stroke thunder"

This would also reduce over use of Trails
You don't need gravity when you have a motor

some advertising from trek..

I rode one of these up some mountain roads in France last year.
[img] [/img]

It was amazing. I'd have one for every day use over here if they didn't cost more than my van was.

Perfect for someone like me who hates road bikes but would happily sacrifice internal combustion to buzz around on one of these things at high speed in total comfort.

I fear that lot of the progress made on trail access for mtb will be undone because of ebikes...

This. Walkers hate us enough already without us powering past them at 20+mph on the flats, which judging by the amount of dicks I see out riding now, will be a fairly common occurrence.

I don't have a problem with them. I ride 13 miles to the trails and another 13 miles home. In the summer, that's fine but I'd have a much more enjoyable ride back if I could spin and cruise at 15 mph. At the moment, the things I like about riding my bike would be too compromised by having to lug a huge battery / motor around. Am sure as things progress they'll get better.

I also like the idea of using them to cover more ground on 'big days out' too. If I can manage 3 big climbs instead of 1 and ride for 6 hours instead of 4... that sounds good to me. I think that's what the Trek video is alluding to.

As for impact on the trails, I don't buy any erosion argument for the current (road legal) e-bikes. They add something like 250 watts, which, if my maths are right, is equivalent to adding a second rider. The bikes are still pretty light-weight, tyres are conventional mountain bike (so not as aggressive as moto tyres).

This would also reduce over use of Trails
You don't need gravity when you have a motor

I don't think you'll find many riders on here doing massive jumps over reapated laps of a short course on 6 inch travel E-bikes, as opposed to a 12 inch travel electric KTM moto. In fact, outside of downhillers I don't think you will find many mountainbikers with the balls to ride that kind of thing.

What makes moto fun is the large amount of power and travel you have, something E-bikes won't really attain.

As for impact on the trails, I don't buy any erosion argument for the current (road legal) e-bikes. They add something like 250 watts, which, if my maths are right, is equivalent to adding a second rider. The bikes are still pretty light-weight, tyres are conventional mountain bike (so not as aggressive as moto tyres).

Double the power is pretty huge in terms of erosion. Also, tyres will get beefier with them. In 5-10 years, if most bikes go pedal assist, we'll be on three to four inch tyres with minion style tread patterns. Again not only will the speed **** people off, but the image will as well. The bigger tyres will equate to more environmental damage in the eyes of hippies everywhere - lets not even mention the batteries. Suddenly a relatively green sport will have had it's environmental impact increased significantly.

IMO it's a bad direction for the bicycle industry and our sport.

Tom_W1987 +1

I can't see their use doing anything positive for mountain biking's image regardless of whether their use is legal or not.

I can't see how having more power on tap won't lead to more erosion, particularly with our climate - people will go faster on the flat bits and splash through puddles, churn up the trails as they don't have to slow down, etc. and have the potential to spin out more.

Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003

9. Conduct excluded from access rights

The conduct which is within this section is—
(a)being on or crossing land in breach of an interdict or other order of a court;
(b)being on or crossing land for the purpose of doing anything which is an offence or a breach of an interdict or other order of a court;
(c)hunting, shooting or fishing;
(d)being on or crossing land while responsible for a dog or other animal which is not under proper control;
(e)being on or crossing land for the purpose of taking away, for commercial purposes or for profit, anything in or on the land;
(f)[b]being on or crossing land in or with a motorised vehicle or vessel (other than a vehicle or vessel which has been constructed or adapted for use by a person who has a disability and which is being used by such a person)[/b];

Electric Bikes and Access Rights
Posted on April 11, 2013
Electric Bikes and Access Rights

An ‘electrically assisted pedal cycle’ is not a ‘motor vehicle’ as long as it meets various criteria, and consequently it can be ridden within the exercise of the Scottish access rights, (eg. on shared paths) – as well as on roads and bike lanes if the rider is over the age of 14..

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (epac) fall under the “Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations 1983 S.1.1168” – Regulation 4 contains the requirements / criteria for an EAPC The key requirements to fall into this category are:

the bike must have pedals that can be used to propel it
the electric motor should not be able to propel the bike at more than 15mph
the bike (including its battery but not the rider) must not be heavier than 40 kilograms (kg) if it’s a bicycle, or 60kg if it’s a tandem or tricycle
the motor shouldn’t have a maximum power output of more than 200 watts if it’s a bicycle and 250 watts if it’s a tandem or tricycle
the bike must have a plate showing the manufacturer, the nominal voltage of the battery, and the motor’s power output
the more definitive references are:

The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations 1983, S.I. 1168. – Regulation 4 contains the requirements/criteria for an EAPC.

The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 s140 (1)(c), and the Road Traffic Act 1988 s189, both state that an eapc ‘..shall be treated as not being a motor vehicle’.

The Road Traffic Act 1988 s32 provides that an eapc shall not be driven on a road by a person under 14, and to do so is an offence.

The Department for Transport published a Factsheet in Oct 2005 titled ‘Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles in Great Britain’, which provides a definitive summary.

No need to fight progress. They shouldn't be allowed on bridleways as they are motorized vehicles.

It's another click on the ratchet of tension between mountain bikers and (seemingly) most other trail users. A click on the ratchet we can do without.........

Doesn't matter whether they are legal or not, the law can be changed and access to places like trail centers can be reduced.

Not only will the hippies get increasingly ****ed off, so will the ramblers and Tory "Prince Charles" types. The latter tend to be able to get the law changed.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to point out that a motor, electrics and it's associated battery and higher power output is more maintenance.....not limited to the new components either....higher power = higher drivetrain wear. Something that I totally can not be arsed with as I might as well go and buy an electric motocross bike and be done with it.