[Closed] E-Livid

All they've posted there is 'we think it'll be more than a normal bike but less than a motorbike'. No shit Sherlock...

They also say that the expect type 1 bikes (legal ebikes here, but restricted to 20mph, rather than 15.5 we have here) to be similar to normal bikes.

Hardly damning...

All they've posted there is 'we think it'll be more than a normal bike but less than a motorbike'. No shit Sherlock...

So we agree they do have the potential to be more damaging.

Hardly damning

I wasn't trying to be.

Erosion per mile ridden, no.
Erosion per ride, possibly, if you ride more because of the assistance. Which would happen if someone got fitter anyway

Not because of plumes of dirt flying out the back, because they simply don't happen, and I've really tried.

I've tried to do a 'burnout/roost' on my levo, front brake on and put as much power through the pedals as I can muster, plus the full 250w fury from the motor. Nothing, even on loose gravel

How unmanly.

Erosion per mile ridden, no.
Erosion per ride, possibly, if you ride more because of the assistance. Which would happen if someone got fitter anyway

The IMBA report says this though:

"We saw some differences between the impacts of eMTBs and mountain bikes, particularly at turns and grade changes"

& that's regardless of how far you've ridden or how fit you are. It's all about what the bike itself actually DOES.

People keep saying they can go twice the distance on their laZebikes - that's twice the erosion.

I've ordered one, despite being pretty sure that I qualify as disabled (who decides what level of disability is OK?) enough can I expect looks of disgust on the trails?

Dullards.

futon river crossing - Member
People keep saying they can go twice the distance on their laZebikes - that's twice the erosion

Best argument EVER.

Topic of the OP : Messner's 'Murder of the impossible'? Maybe.

That's the only thing I think might be a shame. But in the end, to carry on that link, bolted climbs have got to a technical level that trad routes may not match and trad has other difficulties. Both have followers that are respected. Trails and climbs might develop in a similar way.

It's all good, ride what you like.

Maxtorque

Your thoughts & warning about the bigger picture were spot on.

Linking this to real life experience from the world of motorcross bikes and land access is what people should be taking from this thread

On the basis that seasoned bikers cannot agree whether the trail may be subject to more damage from additional grip/torque in certain more fragile conditions which way do you think the Peak District guys who destroyed Rushup Edge will go?

Perception becomes reality

pop larkin - On the basis that seasoned bikers cannot agree whether the trail may be subject to more damage from additional grip/torque in certain more fragile conditions which way do you think the Peak District guys who destroyed Rushup Edge will go?

Perception becomes reality

They already don't know their arse from their elbow so I don't thing adding a forearm into the equation will make much difference.

pop larkin - Member
On the basis that seasoned bikers cannot agree whether the trail may be subject to more damage from additional grip/torque in certain more fragile conditions which way do you think the Peak District guys who destroyed Rushup Edge will go?

Perception becomes reality

Except that's a totally different law, different application and different matter... loveing the hate in this thread.

@mrlebowski - what you quoted below is misleading, particularly for this discussion about the UK.

IMBA E BIKES DATA

"Field Study Hypotheses and Initial Results

IMBA developed these hypotheses for this small initial field study, conducted at one site, with one set of environmental conditions:

[b]Physical impacts to trails from eMTBs will likely fall somewhere between those caused by mountain bikes and motorcycles.[/b]
We expect that eMTBs may lead to more soil displacement under certain conditions, such as through turns, including bermed turns; on ascents and descents; and where there are abrupt changes in trail conditions.
Initial observations suggest good support for the field study hypotheses. We saw some differences between the impacts of eMTBs and mountain bikes, particularly at turns and grade changes. However, for the most part, the soil impacts observed in this study were not greatly different from those of mountain bikes, and were much less than those associated with motorcycle use.

The results of the land manager survey and social impacts analysis are still being compiled; full study results will be released in early 2016."

The UK has a limit on legal e-bike power. Reading this bit of the same IMBA report, mainly the 3rd point -

[img] [/img]

that says pedal-assist bikes with a 20mph max are similar to normal bikes, suggests there's nothing to be concerned about. UK/EU limit is 15.5mph.

Gravity and brake use or being a bit roost-happy present more potential threat to natural trails and could cause more erosion than simply adding a 250W motor and 6kg to a bike.

I fear, jameso, your reasonable representation of facts will be wasted here.

So, back to the same points- no more erosion than a normal bike. So why will there be conflict over legal e-bikes?

I really dont see how rorting around in a barely silenced v8 landrover can be compared to riding a bicycle with a light pedal assist.
Yes in the 90's that was me & my mates,we were dicks, and I can see why 4x4 in the countryside is not a good idea in our small overcrowded island.
The ramblers are always going to hate when they see a group of bikes regardless of whether they are powered or not, they wont make a distinction.

munrobiker - Member
I fear, jameso, your reasonable representation of facts will be wasted here.

So, back to the same points- no more erosion than a normal bike. So why will there be conflict over legal e-bikes?

I'm not saying people who ride ebikes are idiots, or bad people or fat and should be banned but they are all fat bad idiotic people and should be banned, just look at motorbikes.

The above is FACT and your opinion counts for nothing. case closed

oldtalent - The ramblers are always going to hate when they see a group of bikes regardless of whether they are powered or not, they wont make a distinction.

I genuinely think walkers hate bikes far less than cyclists hate bikes right now. The venom on this thread far out strips anything I've come across in person from any other usergroup.

I'm pretty neutral really with some reservations tbh but its the attitude of the ebike advocates thats puts me off most, you really do come across as unpleasant lot.

I dipped my toe into the darkside the other night - just to see what our lycra clad brethren are making of the whole E-Bike onslaught

Much the same as us - but without the land access or trail erosion arguments

Their forums are full of people arguing whether they are bicycles or mopeds and whether it is still cycling or not

I find it really interesting to see such a defined & angry line between the pro and anti e-bike people in our chosen disciplines

The Podge- I'm not seeing where I said I hated e-bikes my point is that the perception issue of additional erosion may just add fuel to the trail access debate

@podge you say theres venom in this thread but most of seems to come from
you, "case closed" etc.

What makes you think you decide when a discusion is closed?

its the attitude of the ebike advocates thats puts me off most, you really do come across as unpleasant lot

I'm similarly neutral on the whole subject and yet I feel exactly the opposite way.

If you are not racist, sexist, have problems with religion etc,. then you may be missing out and feel you need to have a thing you can hate and fear

eBikes seem to be providing that.

pop larkin - The Podge- I'm not seeing where I said I hated e-bikes my point is that the perception issue of additional erosion may just add fuel to the trail access debate

Lets put a gate on the [s]Country[/s] outdoors to stop too many people coming in, and lets put a cap on the population, lets prebook our outdoor life with the "perception government" so that only 1 person can use it at a time so its there for generations to come.

wilburt - @podge you say theres venom in this thread but most of seems to come from you, "case closed" etc.

What makes you think you decide when a discusion is closed?

I fear my lack of smiley face has sent you into a spin, don't worry. The case isnt closed, you can still hope to ban everything just in case someone thinks that someone might do something that someone might not like... when I say you I mean someone other that you, very much not you. and when I say ban I mean you don't want it banned but you'd like to point out reasons why other people (not you) should want it banned.

All the super-fit, human power only riders should be able to put out at least 1000w peak power, probably in a bursty nature. Surely this would cause more erosion than a fat, lazy, possibly disabled rider with 250w added to their meagre own offering?

The venom on this thread far out strips anything I've come across in person from any other usergroup.

TBH I don't think there is that much venom - other than from the odd rather obvious troll..

As they say "Don't feed the troll!"

I wouldn't let them detract from the conversation.

Lets put a gate on the Country outdoors to stop too many people coming in, and lets put a cap on the population, lets prebook our outdoor life with the "perception government" so that only 1 person can use it at a time so its there for generations to come.

Nobody has said that, but there is reason to be concerned that they might cause extra trail damage - as highlighted by the IMBA link on the previous page.

The case isnt closed, you can still hope to ban everything just in case someone thinks that someone might do something that someone might not like... when I say you I mean someone other that you, very much not you. and when I say ban I mean you don't want it banned but you'd like to point out reasons why other people (not you) should want it banned.

Interestingly, the only folks who mention the word "ban" seem to be those who have an e-bike.....

Over reacting much?

Missing the point just a touch?

FYI I am most definitely NOT in favour of a ban..

The UK has a limit on legal e-bike power. Reading this bit of the same IMBA report, mainly the 3rd point

True, but the IMBA data still suggest that there is the potential for increased damage at turns & grade changes.

Please understand, I don't want to see e-bikes banned in any way. I just feel it's important to be aware that they do have the potential to be more damaging than a normal MTB. That's all.

So you agree I didn't say I hated e-bikes then 🙂

As for the rest of your paragraph on putting a gate on the outdoors- you have lost me and Im not sure where the reference to Country comes in- were you saying my comment had racist undertones???

mrlebowski - Nobody has said that, but there is reason to be concerned that they might cause extra trail damage - as highlighted by the IMBA link on the previous page.

The link which was instantly disproved by Jameso?

Over reacting much?

Missing the point just a touch?

The link which was instantly disproved by Jameso?

No, not really as he left out this section:

"We saw some differences between the impacts of eMTBs and mountain bikes, particularly at turns and grade changes. "

pop larkin - Member
So you agree I didn't say I hated e-bikes then

As for the rest of your paragraph on putting a gate on the outdoors- you have lost me and Im not sure where the reference to Country comes in- were you saying my comment had racist undertones???

Yes, you're a massive massive RACIST and I have a pie chart to back it up.

(to avoid any kind of actual misunderstanding, I was A, taking the piss and B, using the term country as in countryside not as in countries of the world but striking it out as I'm sure many people don't like ebikes in the city too).

This whole tread descended into a big pile of arse long long ago

mrlebowski - "We saw some differences between the impacts of eMTBs and mountain bikes, particularly at turns and grade changes. "

BAN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

no one said ban them

BAN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as its a pie made of free range ethically sourced meat Im happy- and I'm also taking the piss as I will eat any type of pie

pop larkin - Member
As long as its a pie made of free range ethically sourced meat Im happy- and I'm also taking the piss as I will eat any type of pie

Very unhygienic

Mrlebowski - it says that in relation to all the bikes in their study, including the sort that aren't allowed on public rights of way. It then, under all that, very clearly states that type 1 bikes, which are the sort allowed on rights of way over here, have a similar impact to a regular bikes.

You can imagine why some of us speak with venom when presented with people unwilling to process data, facts, figures, actual experience of a thing and the law, regardless of how many times it is presented to them. But then we are living in the times of anti-intelligence, maybe I'll just have to learn to live with stuff like this.

(I don't own an e-bike for reference, I just don't like it when people fly in the face of evidence, especially scientific evidence like that from IMBA)

We saw some differences between the impacts of eMTBs and mountain bikes, particularly at turns and grade changes. "

The smooth, consistent, power delivery of an ebike was better than the mashing of pedals on a conventional bike?

Great thread, read most of it.

I'll be honest, I don't like the idea of e-bikes particularly but it's only because I'm a luddite and these new fangled contraptions introduce a whole new level of complexity and elctro-jiggery pokery to something that in essence is a simple machine.

My fear is probably completely irrational so I'll remain open minded and just continue to enjoy my nice simple mechanical machine just like those who chose to embrace technology afterall nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying 'you must e-bike, it's the future' same way as you don't have to ride a 160mm carbon gnarpoon or one of those god awful fat bike things...

'you must e-bike, it's the future' same way as you don't have to ride a 160mm carbon gnarpoon or one of those god awful fat bike things...

😆 I have all three of those...

The ramblers have never openly hated on me whenever I've met them while on the bike, as I respectfully pull over at least 10 yards in advance unless they clearly signal for me to pass, which I do at a crawl and a safe distance. They certainly ain't hated on me as I stop and have a wee spraff and a bit of a laugh with them.

Anyone care to explain why twice the usage isn't twice the erosion?

don't worry tomhoward...I don't hate you 😀

Depends if hes using a mud claw or a 3.8larry doesn't it.

Can't imagine my electric assist bike is eroding the tarmac much more than the wind.

futon river crossing - Anyone care to explain why twice the usage isn't twice the erosion?

Its difficult to measure but we'll assume that twice the usage does equal twice the erosion

Do you propose we limit milage?
Do you propose we limit bike sales?
Do you propose we limit people?

If not, what is your point?

If we are really concerned about erosion then perhaps we should stop riding full stop.

We could ban stop those pesky walkers as well, must be loads of them causingerosion as well.........

We seem to be having a weekly thread about the evil ebikes now, perhaps it should be a forum sticky thread......

Almost forgot about the cars and road building causing environmental issues, not to mention the erosion caused by building new roads.....

Come on, it's not the biggest problem out there,