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It seems i am a weakling when it comes to climbing steep stuff (15-25% gradients) and i dont really have a lot of time to strengthen up or get fitter for a very hilly long ride coming up. I am toying with the idea of lowering my gearing but have to do this on a very tight budget (lets just say as close to free as possible). I currently run a compact 50-34 with a 12-30 cassette all in tiagra 4600 flavour. I think the cheapest option i can see is a new rear mech,tiagra 4601 i believe can do a 32t cassette and so can a 105 5701. Is there another option or way that i can do this, would be happy to stick a 34t on if i can? Will there be any real world difference running a 32 compared to my 30t?
Edit: i assume the 105 mech is compatible with tiagra shifters? The new 4700 tiagra stuff now has different pull ratios so will not work with older tiagra stuff so that is not an option.
Assuming that stuff is 10spd, a 9 speed MTB rear mech and 10 speed cassette will get you to 34:36 if you don't mind big jumps between gears.
Or just pedal harder/get off and push. That's a pretty low gear for the road already.
Will there be any real world difference running a 32 compared to my 30t?
If you're grinding up a 15% grade to maintain 60 rpm in your 30t you'll be doing 8.6 kph at about 325 watts. If you had a 32t then at the same cadence you'd be doing 8.1 kph at about 305 watts. (Assuming rider and bike is about 90kg.)
You could fit a Tiagra triple chainset on the front, that'd give you a 30t granny which would let you winch yourself up most things (a 30/30 in the above scenario is about 286w.)
25% grade, everyone struggles! In a 34-32 to turn the cranks at 60 rpm you're going to be doing about 500 watts. Even with a triple in 30-32 you'd still need 430 watts. Most people will find that pretty hard going for any length of time.
You could just plan routes to avoid the stupid steep stuff 🙂
What about drugs?
Wheezing up brigsteer this morning I'd have happily downed a pint of EPO.
What about drugs?
New cassette is a lot cheaper.
What about drugs?
I'd recommend my london based doctorbut he's one a bit quiet this week. He's got some famous clients don't you know
Assuming that stuff is 10spd, a 9 speed MTB rear mech and 10 speed cassette will get you to 34:36 if you don't mind big jumps between gears.
^ that's your easiest option.
I started reading and was all set to suggest compact 50:34 with a 28, or 30 if you really needed it, but since you're already there then your options for easy fixes are limited.
Going any smaller at the front will require chainset and/or shifter (and possibly front mech) change.
Where are you going to be riding? there's few places in England that have anything over 20% for long (plenty of short ones, but you just grunt up them), and 15% or less should be more than doable on the gearing you have*
I'd go with David's suggestion and whack an MTB cassette and mech on for now.
* obviously very rider dependant and even 1/2 a mile @20% can be a killer if it's at the end of a long ride.
Sadly the route plan is out of my control and is based round one of the tdf routes in yorkshire so cant really get away from those hills. The 15% hills dont bother me but when they drag on for a few km with 20-25% sections in them thats when i suffer. I guess i wont be the only one walking up. I think i will just try my best over the next 6 weeks to get a bit fitter/stronger.
will get you to 34:36
If you do that then the scenario above drops to about 270 watts. So about 50 watts less than you'd currently need. Which is pretty significant. Gaps in the cassette would be horrid though.
I think i will just try my best over the next 6 weeks to get a bit fitter/stronger.
Your best bet is not to eat for 6 weeks 🙂 5kg is worth about 20 watts at 15%.
If this very hilly long ride is the Fred, just push up hardknott. I've ridden it on the mtb and twiddling away in the granny it's still a bastard.
We are going up malham cove,kidstones and some other notorious climbs. Not many hills but overall about 80 miles so no easy task for me as family stuff really limits my riding.
I'm afraid that the answer is training not gearing. Fit a 32 by all means but what you need is more time in Zone 4. The good news is that you can climb 15% comfortably. That means you are probably in Zone 3 for effort. What you need to do is go up a gear and make these comfortable climbs a bit less comfortable. Then when the 20-25% rears up you have some capacity (and a gear) left to climb with.
It actually does get easier with modest training.
I'm afraid that the answer is training not gearing. Fit a 32 by all means but what you need is more time in Zone 4. The good news is that you can climb 15% comfortably. That means you are probably in Zone 3 for effort. What you need to do is go up a gear and make these comfortable climbs a bit less comfortable. Then when the 20-25% rears up you have some capacity (and a gear) left to climb with.
It actually does get easier with modest training.
don't have any experience with 10speed. but try the cassette without the mech; you can often run more teeth than shimano tell you.
I'm running (9speed) short cage on 32T & it's fine. sometimes you need a longer b screw.
6 weeks of interval training & diet should be enough to see a decent improvement.
Malham Cove has only a couple of steep ramps/corners. Short but nasty, and, frankly, pushable if you need to. I'm generally at something like 32/32 on the MTB, and that's after a harder (physically) off-road section.
Kidstones from N or S likewise. Either way, it's longer but there is only one steep ramp in either direction.
If you're 'comfy' at 15%, the bulk of Kidstones will be fine.
Don't know what else your routesetter had in mind, there are worse climbs in the Dales.
Shimano max cassette sizes are often a bit conservative. If the stated max is 32, you may be able to get a 36 in by maxing out the b-screw adjustment. 34 should be no problem.
One other option is to go out a bit on both ends. If you go to a 32 max in the cassette, and use a super-compact chainset, then that also gives you the equivalent of another sproket. Middleburn to a crank/spider that will take a 30-tooth inner inner ring.
(FYI. a 34-36 is the same gear as a 30-32)
Is your front shifter/mech only double compatible, or will it take a triple?
My bike came with a double, but the SORA shifter & mech will take a triple.
If yours will take a triple, then perhaps look at getting a triple chainset & keeping the back-end as it is.
You'd have to buy a sq. taper BB as well, but these are pretty cheap:
http://www.decathlon.co.uk/7-to-9-speed-road-bike-triple-chainset-50x39x30-id_2569409.html
Is there a psychic portal to every forum users weight/HR zones/PWR somewhere I should know about or are the stat heads just bull shitting?
No, they are extrapolating from info either given by the OP
The 15% hills dont bother me
- which broadly extrapolates to being able to manage them in zone 3
or from a general assumption
Assuming rider and bike is about 90kg
which is a fair one for an average STWer, I'd say. And even if it isn't, the variations above and below about how much easier it will be if they are 5kg lighter or running a smaller gear will still be of a similar magnitude.
stat heads just bull shitting?
I assumed rider and bike combined weight of 90kg. And CdA of 0.4 and Crr of 0.004. Then just quoted power requirements based on a fixed RPM for different grade and gear combinations. How hard that is depends on the individuals power profile.
It's pretty straightforward to look at a climb, on starva say, and work out how quickly you should be able to get up it (and whether you have appropriate gearing!) if you understand the variables and your capacity.
(edit... I'll often do this ^^^ before riding in a new area, scope out some of the bigger climbs and see what gearing I'll need so I don't end up hugely over-greared for some stupid long climb.)
And I think TiRed was just making an assumption on z3 based on what the OP said. (TBH from what the OP said I'd have assumed "comfortable" meant around maybe his 8MP, not z3.)
Strange assumption. but thanks for explaining.
What's the sportive? What other hills are on route?
As Martin says, there are a lot worse climbs in the Dales than the two you mention. Most of Kidstones from the south is big ring stuff until you get to the pub (now reopened incidentally) even for an old fat git like me. Malham Cove road is somewhat steeper but I've seen some big fellas get up it without problem.
Strange assumption.
Which assumption? I guess "comfortable" means different things to different people in different scenario 🙂
Just meant the weight assumption. But now I think about it. they're all fairly strange things to assume before committing Mathematical calculations to print. 😛
why's that the strange bit? I'd have thought it's a reasonable stab (maybe a bit under, tbh)
Tiagra all round bike, prob 9kg?
Average man in the UK according to the ONS, is 83kg.
Have to start somewhere (and I didn't want to be too insulting to the OP 😉 ). And I did say that 5kg makes very roughly about 20 watts of difference either way at 15%.
Sorry jon. like I said. I'm beginning to realise this whole forum's a bit strange. 😉
Ok, to get back on track...
Will there be any real world difference running a 32 compared to my 30t?
If it's a sharp out the saddle effort up a short ramp, probably not much real world difference.
If you're in the 34/30 on a long seated climb and feel like you're really pushing at your limit and struggling to keep the cadence up, then yes, having an extra 2 teeth on the back would likely help keep you going a bit longer at a given cadence (Some 20 watts could easily be the difference between someones 8 minute and 20 minute power for example.)
I'm beginning to realise this whole forum's a bit strange.
It certainly can be. Not sure which part of this thread you're finding a bit strange though. Probably has strayed a bit from the OP's question.
Well just to help out with some of the assumptions which are fairly accurate already. Rider,bike and kit will be close to 90kg. By "comfortable" on 15% means i can normally get up them without the need for stopping or walking but i might just be a bit red faced and blowing. I think in all honesty i will just leave my set up as it is and rely on a bit of training,adrenaline and my competitive spirit.
I am not overly familiar with the area so those were the only 2 climbs i remember been mentioned and may be greenhow hill or lane and i dont know the rest. Its not a ride specifically for finding tough hills so i am sure there are worse to be had. I think they are probably not as bad as some folk say and like somebody mentioned people will see it and think differently about some of the hills. I will just try and ride whats in front of me and enjoy a very rare day of riding.
Greenhow Hill is the road leading out of Pateley Bridge towards Grassington, quite long but in three distinct rises with almost flat in between.
Standard road derailleur will take a 32 maybe 34, beyond that and presuming your not very old or very ill you should man up and put some miles in. ( or sell the bike and buy some golf clubs) 🙂
Wilburt - sticking with the 30 and will man up,its the stw rule!
Whitestone - not sure greenhill is on the menu then but pretty sure we are going through grassington and then towards kettlewell/settle??????
I think in all honesty i will just leave my set up as it is and rely on a bit of training,adrenaline and my competitive spirit.
Is the correct answer. TBH when you are on steep stuff at times the only option is to suffer and not give up, it's what cycling is all about 😈
I don't fancy carrying a set of golf clubs around the Dales for a day out.
TBH when you are on steep stuff at times the only option is to suffer and not give up, it's what cycling is all about
Here here!
Equations of power, grade and gearing can sometimes take away from the essence of hard climbing which is digging deep into that suitcase of courage and turning yourself inside out to get to the top. Or something like that 🙂
Where does the ride start from? I'm trying to figure out the course/
I'm 6'2" and 82kg's and I'm definitely not a natural climber.
I've not ridden those climbs but I've ridden plenty of alpine climbs plus a few of the Pyrenees.
50/34 up front and 30 out back really should be enough.
The only way to get better at climbing is to err.. climb more.
There has been many a time i have been dry retching from turning myself inside out so i guess another one isn't going to matter, i think i kinda enjoy the torture.
If anyone knows arthington hill in Pool near otley then this is currently my training hill, been up once but had to stop 2/3rds way up rest for a minute then continued. My goal is to get up in one go before the long ride which i reckon is doable as i wasnt at my best last time.
which is digging deep into that suitcase of courage and turning yourself inside out to get to the top. Or something like that
Aye,indeed.
I have never had to walk up any road hill in the UK*
but we walked off the moors and down Rosedale chimney last weekend and I thought "ooo this might be a bit of a test" 😯
*yet
Whitestone - not sure greenhill is on the menu then but pretty sure we are going through grassington and then towards kettlewell/settle??????
If you're going over Kidstones from the south then it's possible you'll have Fleet Moss from Hawes or maybe Greenhow on the way back over. FM is a testing one, but as long as the dreaded words 'Park Rash' haven't been mentioned...
Not sure what route the OP is doing - if he's heading to Settle then he could come back via Red Shaw/Newby Head which while not steep is usually in to the wind going up Widdale.
Could the OP tell us what the event is?
Greenhow Hill is the road leading out of Pateley Bridge towards Grassington, quite long but in three distinct rises with almost flat in between.
I strongly approve of this optimistic formulation. An alternative view would be an initial punch to let you know it means business, followed by morale sapping false summits, height gain rewarded by a strengthening 20 mph westerly right in your face...
But it's no Park Rash and a granny ring or whatever would only prolong the pleasure.
I assumed comfortable = tempo which is Zone 3 heart rate. Steeper or faster needs Zone 4 and there is only one way to get better, sadly. Zone 4 is not comfortable, regardless of your fitness level.
How about the chainset? My SRAM front mech copes with both a normal road compact and a MTB double running 28/44.