[Closed] Cyclist jailed

Violent nutcase jailed more like.

Wasnt this a thread on here a while back when they were looking for him?

He killed somebodies dad,brother,son, etc, got caught and has gone to prison, end of story.

What would others want if a cyclist had kiled someone close to you, no matter how they did it.

He is a violent nutter with mental problems. Who happened to also own a bike. Cyclists are not a separate race, they are humans with bicycles.

I knew there were some bells going off in my head when I saw this thread.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/naughty-cyclists-in-sussex

As long as the killer of Ian Tomlinson receives a similar punishment, then fair enough...

Depends whether a jury convicts Tomlinson's alleged killer in a fair trial.......

**** killed an innocent man 18 months WTF IS WRONG WITH THE JUDGE WAS HE ON SMACK! I just hope karma come's back the MURDERER HIS BARRISTER AN THE JUDGE!

18 months is a joke, it really is.
He's going walk free in less than a year.
A joke.

18 months is a joke, it really is.

Why is it?

One single punch, following an event where the cyclist may have felt their safety/life may have bin in danger, reacted in anger in the heat of the moment, no intention to kill, no pre-meditated intention to attack or cause harm, and the defendant gave himself up and pleaded guilty to manslaughter.

Fairly proportionate sentence imo. Of course, an emotional reaction is perhaps to call for a much tougher sentence, but how would Justice and Society be best served if the sentence were in fact harsher?

If Justice is indeed as blind and egalitarian as is claimed, then the killer of Ian Tomlinson will be getting a much longer sentence...

One single punch, following an event where the cyclist may have felt their safety/life may have bin in danger, reacted in anger in the heat of the moment, no intention to kill

But he did. No defence IMO.

I'm with fred.

Shudders....

[i]He is a violent nutter with mental problems. Who happened to also own a bike. Cyclists are not a separate race, they are humans with bicycles. [/i]

Totally +1. It's ridiculous. He probably owns a kettle too but they don't say 'Man who likes a nice cup of tea kills someone' do they?

However, there is a very clear line in Britain about going around killing people. If you drive over someone in a car, you will almost certainly be home pretty quickly and at the most, get a fine and a ban of some description. If you kill someone while riding a bike, you will almost certainly go to jail, statistically that is.

I agree with Elfinsafety, sounds more like the intentions were probably nothing more than to give the guy that died a 'bloody nose and something to think about' rather than any real malicious intent to murder him, had he also been kicking the unconscious victim about the head while on the ground etc..then I might believe that but at present I'm not so sure.

I'm not surprised to see the situation 'hyped up' on a forum though, good example being that he's been described as 'a violent nutter with mental problems', now forgive me if I missed the story somewhere but I don't remember seeing a report on that in the press?

He punched a man in the face, the violence part can't be denied, but now he's some kinda escapee from a mental institution as well is he?
So every time someone is punched in the face around the world, (just imagine how common that is) the person doing the punching is a 'nutter with mental problems'?

I think not. 🙄

Agree with Elfin and others. The key in this is intent.

following an event where the cyclist may have felt their safety/life may have bin in danger, reacted in anger in the heat of the moment, no intention to kill, no pre-meditated intention to attack or cause harm,

Many of those arguments could also apply to Tomlinson's killer-wound up by crowds, doing his best to maintain public order and safety in difficult circumstances, etc etc.I think I'll bookmark this thread for when his verdict is given.

EDIT I see if was a psychotic off his meds which must have mitigated sentencing.

That report contains none of your stuff tho Fred...did you make that up?

Many of those arguments could also apply to Tomlinson's killer-wound up by crowds, doing his best to maintain public order and safety in difficult circumstances, etc etc.I think I'll bookmark this thread for when his verdict is given.

Fail. The killer of Tomlinson had a history of trouble, had disobeyed an order and went looking for trouble. In addition to this the police as a whole were undoutably under orders to stamp out trouble.

Not the same in any way, please utilise brain in future. Ta. 😉

Note use of word "could" - I know as little about him as Fred does about this killer.

I was just pointing out that little Fred had made up a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the report to suit his devil's advocacy.

Agree with Elfin and others. The key in this is intent.

Yup, intent to do harm, which he clearly had & responsibility for any consequences that intent may have caused

If I'd been the judge he'd be looking at 5+

Note use of the word "fail".

I cannot believe that Fred would simply pluck 'facts' out of the air, it just wouldn't happen. 😀

As ever with stuff like this we get the charge, the sentence and a couple of largely irrelevant factoids. Sloppy journalism.

18 months is **** all. So why'd he get it? Must have been a [b]number[/b] of mitigating circumstances that haven't been reported. I reckon Fred is on the right track.

18mths for manslaughter is the minimum sentence iirc

sad story, that really has nothing to do with 'cyclists' at all...

I wonder how this thread would have gone if the roles were reversed and it was the driver that punched the cyclist to death after an altercation on the road.

I suspect there's have been calls to bring back hanging

punched the cyclist/driver to death

That wasn't really what happened though was it. It was a single punch which caused the driver to fall, which ultimately caused the death. Punched to death makes it sound like a sustained attack, which would be worse and would deserve a bigger sentence -> IMHO.

He probably owns a kettle too but they don't say 'Man who likes a nice cup of tea kills someone' do they?

-1

Point taken and I'm quick to criticise reporting like this too but in this case the cyclist bit was relevant to the case and the story, seeing as he was on his bike at the time. Your comment did make me chuckle, so +0.5 back for that 😉

Difficult one, and while I feel very sorry for the family of the guy who died, there does not appear to have been any intent to kill.

It's the sort of incident that happens hundreds, if not thousands of times any day of the week and both parties walk away without much harm being done. I know of at least two similar incidents (resulting in the death of the person punched) in which the assailant has not gone to jail, or even as far as court.

Could be said that sometimes your luck is just shit-out, for both parties.

Thin skull doctrine innit.

My guess is the mental health thing was the main factor, tho imo if he had awareness of what stopping meds did you'd think the sentence should reflect that responsibility.

The guy had mental health issues and wasn't taking his meds, but was in possession of cannabis. Not a great combination. A sad story for all involved, especially the victim and his family.

I was just pointing out that little Fred had made up a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the report to suit his devil's advocacy.

No I jolly well have not. You've just made it up that I've made stuff up. 😉

What I said was:

the cyclist [b]may have[/b] felt their safety/life [b]may have[/b] bin in danger, reacted in anger in the heat of the moment

Note the words 'may have'. Just trying to understand what [b]might[/b] have happened.

According to reports I've read linked from here, there was an argument between the driver and 3 cyclists, which culminated in one bloke punching another bloke. Now, having bin in many a simliar situation myself, I can well imagine things getting a bit heated, and someone lashing out. Perfectly believable scenario I'd say. And news reports do actually suggest that tbh. What we don't know, were there any threats made on either side? Did the victim make any sort of move towards the assailant, causing the assailant to think he was in danger and to react instinctively. We don't know all that.

But it does very much seem that the sentence is entirely appropriate and proportionate.

I've ****ted people and worse, for doing stupid things which endangered my safety and life, but fortunately no-one's ever died. Bin a few black eyes and bloody noses though, and in my book, ****ing right an' all. Having bin clipped/almost mown down, then having some idiot screaming in your face cos it's apparently your fault they're a crap driver does tend to get the old adrenaline flowing...

This is just a tragic case where that one-in-a-lot chance of death has occurred. Hence the manslaughter conviction.

I'm with fred.

I agree with Elfinsafety

Agree with Elfin

😀

It's the best way, really...

Seems to be an acceptance here that it's ok to go around punching people. Wrong, just as it's wrong to drive carelessly. If the 'cyclist' hadn't punched the guy he wouldn't be dead.

. Perfectly believable scenario I'd say. And news reports do actually suggest that tbh. What we don't know, were there any threats made on either side? Did the victim make any sort of move towards the assailant, causing the assailant to think he was in danger and to react instinctively.

Does any of that have a bearing on sentencing? I think not.

And you're just looking for yes-men rather than a proper challenge? Getting old? I suspect you may have a point though...you may be slightly less unpopular on here than me.

Seems to be an acceptance here that it's ok to go around punching people.

Where? I don't see that at all.

What I do see, is an understanding that sometimes, in the heat of the moment, people resort to anger and sometimes even violence. I don't see anyone claiming this is acceptable or 'ok'.

My 'victims' were all smacked cos they were making extremely threatening gestures or actually attacked me. Par Example; when someone's deliberately just driven their car into you and then go to get out of their car, you don't wait to see if they're gonna do owt else, you smack 'em. Pre-emptive strike. Could actually be considered self-defence in some circumstances.

The assailant in this case could well be someone who goes around smacking others at the drop of a hat. We don't know that. Although surely a history of violent offences would have come up in court, and possibly have affected his sentence, if there were any.

Does any of that have a bearing on sentencing? I think not.

Erm, I'm sure if the defendant claimed he felt threatened and in fear of his own safety/life, then that may be considered mitigation, no?

Your diatribes seek to justify the violence, ergo you think it's ok.

Well, I'm just trying to 'understand' the situation by using my own experiences to perhaps offer some clues or insight into what really might have happened.

I'm not trying to 'justify' any violence that occurred, as I wasn't there, wasn't involved and don't know much about it. In the situations I've bin in, I've felt that violence was by and large 'justifiable'. It is my belief that my use of force prevented me from injury and/or further attack. Wether or not the Law would agree with me, we'll never know.

But as you weren't there on any of those occasions, then you can't possibly hope to have much understanding of them other than what I've told you. If you then chose to make a judgement based on such scant information, then you're not acting in a particularly reasoned and objective manner.

As for 'condoning violence'; you may notice I've not, at any point, argued that the attacker should not have bin found guilty nor received any custodial sentence.

Agree with Elfin and others. The key in this is intent.

ok... the guy threw a punch that did a heck of a lot more damage than intended.. and as such I think the calls for a tougher sentence are a bit over the top..
BUT.. it's about time that society as a whole started taking responsibility for these accidents..
By my early 20s I'd seen enough people seriously and sometimes permanently injured from a punch that resulted in a fall that I realised that throwing a punch is a little more serious than men and boys 'sorting out their differences'.. and adjusted my behaviour and that of those around me accordingly..
no-one intends to kill or maim with a good old gentlemanly traditional punch in the face.. but the sad fact of the matter is that it often happens..

lads should be educated very seriously regarding this fact from an early age..
It's a boody shame to watch two mates having a row over a girl or an insult. and then to witness one of them out cold and twitching with their head cracked open on a kerb while the other breaks down in tears of remorse..

but the sad fact of the matter is that it often happens

Does it? Are lots of people killed just by a punch to the face?

More so, maybe, than are killed by careless drivers not paying attention to other road users, for example?

I'm not really arguing that point elf.. and I suspected a pedant would pull that out of the bag.. I have to admit to having a higher opinion of you than that..
if I was in front of you I would like to think that I could refrain from punching you in the nose for being such a tit..

If you think the benefits of teaching boys that it's noble to throw your fists around outweigh the risks then that's your bag man..

maybe a swift kick in the bollocks would be more appropriate.. now where's me steelies..?

Does it? Are lots of people killed just by a punch to the face?

Doesn't help that mainstream tv, films etc. regularly show guys trading punches with little effect.

but that's not the point, is it?

I think that you're actually missing it...

if I was in front of you I would like to think that I could refrain from punching you in the nose for being such a ****..

If you were in front of me in an agitated and potentially violent state, I'd like to think I could take appropriate measures to prevent you causing me any physical harm... 😉

If you think the benefits of teaching boys that it's noble to throw your fists around outweigh the risks then that's your bag man..

Erm, once again; I don't think I've actually condoned the use of violence other than for self-defence. 🙄

But if it makes you happy to think I have, then I spose I should be happy that you are similarly joyful. 🙂

I think that you're actually missing it...

Elf..

have a word with yourself lad..

fortunately I haven't got time for any deliberate obtuseness this morning..

I was only trying to make a small request that we try and teach our kids about the dangers as well as the glamour..
what you hope to gain from attempting to undermine my post is a bit beyond me..
I'll put it down to sore legs and intrinsic sillybillyness or summink...

and then to witness one of them out cold and twitching with their head cracked open on a kerb while the other breaks down in tears of remorse..

Thing is in this case there wasn't even any remorse, they fled the scene. I'd prosecute the two cyclists who were with him too.

What point am I missing?

The point that no-one's actually arguing against the fact that punching people is wrong. I think there's probbly a healthy consensus on this matter. Deaths resulting from punches to the head isn't the point of this particular discussion really; had the victim died from hitting his head following just being pushed over, then we wouldn't be arguing about punching people in the face at all. The issue here is that a violent attack has caused a death. And that the sentencing of the attacker has created a debate around appropriateness/proportionality of sentencing.

Of course, we could go on to discuss just how many accidents are caused by careless drivers opening their doors without due consideration for other road-users, but I spect that will be as equally off-tangential as Yunki's punching in the face sub-discussion.

Elf I really can't be bothered - you carry on with your own 'entirely relevant' submissions 🙄

If you were in front of me in an agitated and potentially violent state

I'd like to think it would be more like this, Elf..

[img] [/img]