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https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/28361/water-of-leith-management-plan-2020-to-203 0"> http://Water of Leith Management Plan 2020-2030 - Edinburgh Council https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/28361/water-of-leith-management-plan-2020-to-2030 .
I would contact the organisations mentioned in R18 of this document too, and advise them of the incident.
Bombers and frozen sausages it is then.
I was going to suggest accidents happen and just move on until I read their response.
Their dog caused the accident, yet they think you'll be contributing to their vet bill? I don't think so!
The reality of it is we're into he said / she said, there is no real evidence, we have a cyclist knocked off their bike, but could they have reasonably avoided it, we don't know, there is no video, there is no witnesses by the sounds of it, as others say, GPS is pointless, you're going small claims, anything short of witnesses or signed declarations are all smoke and mirrors, the whole 4.8mph is weird as well, why were you going so slow on the path, oh you were aware of dogs in the vicinity but didn't stop or be more wary, how did you go over the bars at such a slow speed, surely to do that much damage you were going faster.........
All the above is just questions anyone would ask in small claims or the likes, not my opinion, hell i've been on the other side of a claim and having the only witness testify to our claim wasn't enough to win, the more i see this type of stuff the more i actually think i'll have to buy a camera for the car and/or bike!
Ask for a copy of the receipt from the vet.
Then ask for their address so you can pop round and pay. But don’t, just send them poop in the post.
I wonder if they have an equivalent thread on ‘dinlow dog owners’ forum?!
“But anyway if you want to settle, please give me a quote with the cost breakdown and I will provide the quote from the vet which will include potential X-ray and further treatments as she recovers.”
Well, that was a ballsy response. Over to you Munrobiker! 🤨
Its a crap situation for sure , I've had fairly similiar a couple of times . I hit a teenager at about 25 mph who had just came off a bus with ear phones in , then a network rail van hit me as he couldn't see me for low winter sun. On both occasions I was shook up but didn't pursue it as I had only minor scratches on the bike and my body.
Regarding dogs and X rays I was quoted £900 for an xray on my pug so they wont want to go down that route. If you want to still go after them I'd maybe try a tactful letter saying to meet you half way on the helmet and Gps . Im in east lothian but I know where this happened and Its very similiar to both the bonnyrigg to penicuil old railway line and closer to me the pencaitland old railway where I wouldn't have my dogs on a lead but are busy with bikes. A dog can bolt after anything at the drop of a hat and you have been unlucky . Substitute the dog for a fox or deer and there is no claim but the same result. Anyhoo good luck and I hope you both come to an amical resolution.
wow thats a surprising amount of damage / injury from a slow falling off.
Nah, I’m trying to remember the term , sack of shite or something like that when you go OTB slowly and your whole body weight just drops vertically to the floor , does a lot of damage, and nasty if it’s your face hitting the floor first.
Involve the Police for the dog being out of control in a public place resulting in your injuries....
It's a subject thats been in the news the last few days, they may want to be seen to take action
Realise that it doesn’t help you but if they have to fork out for vet bills/see an increase in insurance premium then it’s their own stupid fault. Importantly they should learn from it unless they can afford not to.
That's a rather dickish response.
Sadly not isolated it would seem.
If the dogs been injured and has in fact needed treatment then regardless of your version without proof it's your word against theirs. If you fancy trying it on the phrase 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes' comes to mind, that treatment could end up being orders of magnitude more than your GPS.
Try and look at this with some objectivity, from your story their dog caused you to fall but from their perspective your speed caused their dog to be injured. How do you fancy your chances in a balance of probabilities case?
And FFS stop with the dangerous dogs nonsense, that doesn't apply here since the dog didn't in any way attack you or give you reason to think it would. The dog was roaming, end of. It's already been explained
I was always in British Cycling for the legal support/ insurance as this type of thing can turn into an expensive nightmare.
Any of the legal eagles in the house tonight to give us a legal perspective ?
Someone’s black lab comes bounding out of the undergrowth and over to him, so I tell him to sit and distract him with chicken strips whilst shouting for the owner to recall their dog. “It’s fine, he’s friendly”, until the inevitable happens and the untrained Labrador and it’s owner gets a valuable lesson in why not let their dog with crap recall approach other dogs.
You were waving chicken strips around and wonder why a lab waddled over to you!!
As I understand it, if you do decide to pursue this through the small claims court, the other party are not permitted to counter sue you. IANAL, but there are some on here, who may be able to provide clarification
If the garmin was buggered, how does the OP know how fast he was going?
<span style="caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%; background-color: #444444;">I was riding along a shared used path on the way to the Pentlands today. It’s an old railway line with a new tarmac surface in a tunnel of trees. A dobermann type dog ran out from another path on my left so I slowed, moved over to the right and then another dashed out from the vegetation on my left. I hit it side on at 4.8mph according to Strava, went straight over the bars and hit the deck tangled up in my bike.</span>
The other parties legal counsel would take you apart if this was your statement to the court. Frankly I’d chalk this one to stuff happens as the other party will not be paying out without a fight and your position isn’t as strong as you think it is.
“But anyway if you want to settle, please give me a quote with the cost breakdown and I will provide the quote from the vet which will include potential X-ray and further treatments as she recovers.”
Seems they want to go knock for knock. Any tips?
He's been on dogwalkertrackworld getting moronic adivce from billytwodogs and all his ****ty online fwends.
The other parties legal counsel would take you apart if this was your statement to the court
Good job it’s an informal post on a bike forum then.
Because I'm just wired this way, I would go for a response to call a bluff to thier bluff.
Go on then, send me the vets bill and your address then please so we can settle this...
sadly I did call it as the likely response from the dog owner. sorry.
I doubt they will have taken the dog to the vet . yet. you can bet they will if you call their bluff, just out of principle to cost you.
He’s been on dogwalkertrackworld getting moronic adivce from billytwodogs and all his ****ty online fwends.
Yep, spoke to someone, now going to protect themselves, it's inevitable, as stated earlier, there's no real evidence by the sounds of it, small claims or magistrates don't tend to work like TV courtrooms, evidence has to be indisputable for it to go that way, otherwise it's he said / she said.
I believe it's a streamlined process now in small claims for this level of claim, so even more onerous if no real evidence is there and it's just counter claims being reviewed.
But anyway if you want to settle, please give me a quote with the cost breakdown and I will provide the quote from the vet which will include potential X-ray and further treatments as she recovers.”
Seems they want to go knock for knock. Any tips?
I would go at it like a bull at a gate just to piss them off. But I think you should just let it go, only stress and frustration to gained. For the sake of what £300?
Off lead dog on shared use path. No way would you be legally accountable if you hit it. IANAL
As others have said it is your word vs his. I would leave it.
There are always 2 versions (not saying yours are wrong) and he is probably saying to his mates “ I was out walking the dogs today and this cyclist came pelting down the path, no bell or warning. The dogs got spooked as he appeared so fast from no where. He was going so fast he nearly hit one dog but as he swerved out of control he hit the other dog and has injured it. I might need to take it to the vets. Do you think I should contact him and see what he says, do you think I should be compensated for his actions as it was clearly his fault…... You will never guess what, the cyclist has just been on to me and he is looking for me to replace his helmet and a garmin. I never even saw any garmin and he never mentioned it before taking off. Sound fishy to me!”
That’s a rather dickish response.
@squirrelking owner immediately accused the OP of riding too fast rather than admit that they were not in charge of their dog. That's a dickish move especially as OP had his speed recorded on a Garmin which showed that it wasn't fast. This could have been settled amicably, oops sorry I took my eye off my dog and I hope you're not hurt but instead leaves a bad taste.
I was driving my car safely and legally at 30mph past a primary school at 3:20 when a child suddenly appeared from between 2 parked cars - who could possibly have foreseen such a thing - nothing I could possibly do to avoid hitting it.
Anyway my car got a dent in the bumper and the bits of blood and skull have marred the paint
How do I proceed? Grieving parents aren't responding to my WhatsApp messages
Contrary to how some owners behave, dogs are not children. Laws that apply to dogs do not apply to children and vice versa. Strawman argument is dismissed.
A previous incident and commentary…
https://road.cc/content/news/give-cycling-dedicated-space-reaction-291115
owner immediately accused the OP of riding too fast rather than admit that they were not in charge of their dog.
Well given he moved to the opposite side of the path from where the dog emerged and still didn't have time to stop I think they may have a point. Look at it from their perspective. I'm not saying they're right but your response of just rinsing them is pretty OTT.
As others have said it is your word vs his. I would leave it.
There are always 2 versions (not saying yours are wrong) and he is probably saying to his mates “ I was out walking the dogs today and this cyclist came pelting down the path, no bell or warning. The dogs got spooked as he appeared so fast from no where. He was going so fast he nearly hit one dog but as he swerved out of control he hit the other dog and has injured it. I might need to take it to the vets. Do you think I should contact him and see what he says, do you think I should be compensated for his actions as it was clearly his fault…… You will never guess what, the cyclist has just been on to me and he is looking for me to replace his helmet and a garmin. I never even saw any garmin and he never mentioned it before taking off. Sound fishy to me!”
Reality is in Scotland i believe this type of small claims is online these days, and just a coin toss for the outcome with no real evidence, hence why i just see it as being a lesson in life, we've all been there, i've had a couple like this over the years in cars and a bike.
If you are to make a claim, do it online, get their details, as you'll need more than a name and email i believe, they'll counter of course, then let fate decide, nothing on here will help, going via text or email is pointless, you'll just antagonise each other more, if i was on either side i'd just block the numbers/email and ignore, you either take the hit, or raise it via small claims now i'd say, it's amazing how people can change when their perspective changes from 'a bike cost 100 quid these days' to 'you've damaged my 5k bike'.
Cyclelaw Scotland aren’t based too far from you. Be worthwhile sending them an email.
Contrary to how some owners behave, dogs are not children.
That's true, kids are annoying little shits.
The dog owner is liable for the damage caused end of. they cyclist is not liable for the damage to the dog unless the owners can show negligence which is almost impossible.
there is no need to prove anything with the claim against the dog owner - the facts are clear. the dog was not under control and caused a bike rider to crash
dog owner is liable for the damage caused end of
How is this conclusion reached? Lots of case law where this is not so.
Most well known is perhaps Jones v Whippey from 2009. A great Dane jumped up at a runner in a park pushing him over and causing injury. Runner claimed against owner and won. Owner went to Court of appeal who said the owner not liable. (And the runner was left with a £25k legal bill)
The statements we have read here clearly indicate some differences but I don't think saying the dog owner is liable in such a clear cut way is correct.
More info on Hector the great Dane here - https://www.sleeblackwell.co.uk/legal-articles/when-good-dogs-go-bad
The dog owner is liable for the damage caused end of. they cyclist is not liable for the damage to the dog unless the owners can show negligence which is almost impossible.
there is no need to prove anything with the claim against the dog owner – the facts are clear. the dog was not under control and caused a bike rider to crash
You mean apart from the burden of proof, it's all hearsay you've based your conclusion on, as someone said in the previous page, if you read the dog owners story over on dogwalkersworld.com, you'll get many doing the counter conclusion, this isn't going in front of judge rinder on TV, it's going through an online claim system that'll be reading two counter claims, without witness statements, video evidence, etc, all it's going to say is Claim 1 - out of control dog, Claim 2 - Cyclist going too fast with others using the path.
@db thanks, that's an interesting read. Not as straightforward as I (or most folks would) thought.
Claim 1 – out of control dog, Claim 2 – Cyclist going too fast with others using the path.
The latter is speculative; the former is definitive. No lead = no control in this setting.
Presumably, the GPS data would wipe the excessive speed argument out anyway.
.
Yeah, I tracked the ride on my phone (the GPS computer I use these days so I have some data in front of me, but it's such a faff to connect to Strava I use both). If the GPS comes to life I'll see if I can get the data off that, then I'd have two points of reference to show that I'd slowed right down.
After a polite email last night listing the cost of the damaged equipment and providing links to show I'd given the lowest possible price for them, he's doubled down and is surprised that I'm blaming his dog for the accident. He had already been to the vet (he sent me a photo in the original email) and is going back today for an X ray and will send me the bill.
I find as I get older, and after a car insurance claim where I was the innocent party but still ended up in court for hire car fees and several grand down on the deal, I just don't have the fight for this sort of thing anymore. Even if morons can't keep their dogs on leads and it's me who loses out because of it.
I hit it side on at 4.8mph according to Strava, went straight over the bars and hit the deck tangled up in my bike.
Playing devil's advocate, had you have slowed down further than running speed then the accident could possibly have been avoided and/or the impact lower so it could be argued you were already going too fast on a shared path to respond to what could happen, particularly given you were aware of people/dogs in the area.
Next time it could a be child’s face.
Would this conversation be different if it had been a child running out in front of you? You've got insurance for the parents to claim on, right?
I find as I get older, and after a car insurance claim where I was the innocent party but still ended up in court for hire car fees and several grand down on the deal, I just don’t have the fight for this sort of thing anymore. Even if morons can’t keep their dogs on leads and it’s me who loses out because of it.
That's the way i see it these days, hence the comments, had similar with a car accident a while back, new driver (3 weeks post test) came through a red, straight into our car turning, witness on our side, she defended herself in court, made a mess of it and the prosecutor helped her, magistrate put it down as 50/50, because they weren't sure her light was red, as us and witness didn't see from that angle! She tried claiming on our insurance as well, thankfully thrown out, so at least she was off the road for a while!
Had another one where someone in a car park reversed into me whilst we were in a queue of traffic, they were instantly defensive and so on, all i could see was paying the excess, my insurance going up, and nothing but hassle, i just walked away and lived with the dents, it's sad that this is how most folk think now, you have an accident but you're apportioned blame no matter what, and have costs to contend with as well.
I just don’t have the fight for this sort of thing anymore
Are you insured? Either through BC or on your home policy? If so, it's probably time to get them involved.
On the High Peak Trail I ran over a child and her bike once when she veered into my path and fell off. With my epic bike skills I managed to stay on my bike and stopped to see if she was all right.
The parents then apologised to me and gave the girl a clout for being dozzy! Not her best day. 🙂
After a polite email last night listing the cost of the damaged equipment and providing links to show I’d given the lowest possible price for them, he’s doubled down and is surprised that I’m blaming his dog for the accident. He had already been to the vet (he sent me a photo in the original email) and is going back today for an X ray and will send me the bill.
That's shit. I'd stop communicating now as this could get messy.
If you have legal expenses on your home insurance I'd give them a call for some advice. If he starts claiming vets fees you could soon be into thousands.
How is this conclusion reached? Lots of case law where this is not so.
Most well known is perhaps Jones v [s]Whippey[/s] Whippet from 2009
Ftfy