Saw this brand new van this morning, the LED red no cyclist sign is permanently on and then blinks when the van indicates left.
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I'm all for warning measures to increase awareness of passing large vehicle but this is implying you shouldn't pass at all, it's not in accordance with the new highway code, and probably gives the wrong message to it's drivers.
The van is a 7t Iveco and has some of the best mirrors in the business for visibility so it's not as though it's hard to spot cyclists.
The sign also stays on when it's doing 60mph, I wonder why they don't have one on the right for motorcyclists incase the driver wants to turn right?
@brakesfood
That blind spot sticker needs a further one, "Our drivers are not competent" just below it. Or "we set unreasonable routes so our drivers are rushed."
Just ignore it, its not a legally enforcable sign is it. I agree it ****ing stupid and very lazy, but it wouldn't absolve them of anything in court. Remind the driver of that if they have a pop at you.
Or spray paint it black, if they're not using thier mirrors they won't see you doing it....
I saw one of those vans a couple of days ago and thought it was a good idea. I cycle in town and am amazed how some cyclists are unaware that they are putting themselves in a blind spot.
But those signs "if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you" should be supplemented with "and I'm too mean to spend £60 on a dashcam"
I get the sentiment but why in anyone's world would you not want to discourage going up the inside of vehicles like that.
Friends have lost partners due to taking that path.
It's somewhere I don't take chances.
If making out you should not going up the inside saves one life...I'm ok with the slight delay it would cause.
I don't blame the driver, it's the company making the decision. It was bad enough when I got my last van that has a 'Cyclist Stay Back' sign, luckily guidance had changed so I was allowed to rip it off and replaced it with a Cyclists are awesome sticker!
I get the sentiment but why in anyone’s world would you not want to discourage going up the inside of vehicles like that.
Exactly.
Surely going up the inside depends on the situation, a straight road with a dashed cycle lane, how many of us would stop? If it was a warning/exclamation (rather than prohibiting it) that came on at 20mph and below, and blinked with the indicator, I think that would be more effective.
I would like to think that with a device like that, it comes with some sort of driver/proximity aid to alert them of movement alongside the vehicle.
Road markings funnel cyclists up the inside to the 'bike box' at the front. That can be a bad place to be if the lights change and you're not reached the box and the vehicle next to you is about to turn left.
Arguably the road markings create the situation, esp. with new cyclists who aren't aware of the dangers.
Isn't it just an illuminated version of the sign that is on countless other vehicles? If you can cope with a non illuminated version without contacting the ceo of the company then what difference do a few leds make?
This is yet another example of the ways in which safety on the roads has become framed as the responsibility of victims rather than perpetrators. If a driver can’t see what is in his or her way when making a manoeuvre he or she shouldn’t make that manoeuvre. If a vehicle has a blind spot which renders this impossible, that vehicle shouldn’t be on the road.
There’s a wealth of evidence from multiple contexts that information signs, such as this kind of thing, do little to nothing to change behaviour - getting side-swiped by a truck is not a knowledge-deficit problem. Signs like this perpetuate a situation that normalises the imposition of road danger on people riding bikes, while doing nothing to address the problem.
So they can afford to pay out for a nice flashing sign but not for a camera and screen which would remove the blindspot?
I get the sentiment but why in anyone’s world would you not want to discourage going up the inside of vehicles like that.
I dont even get the sentiment tbh. Dont do it. Its daft
No issues with that from me...aware we aren't really liked on the road but there are quite a few bikers who don't do any favours to cyclists/road users (same with car drivers, etc.). If it helps raise awareness to get cyclists considering if it is sensible to pass on the inside then it is all good. For those who don't bother about that now, then it won't make any odds to them.
It is sad that we are getting to the point where everything that might be dangerous needs to be flagged to make sure people are aware they need to do some thinking...
I get the sentiment but why in anyone’s world would you not want to discourage going up the inside of vehicles like that.
+1
Some cyclists are brainless and lazy too without an understanding of potential consequences of seeing a gap and going for it.
Dont do it. Its daft
Whats daft? Filtering in traffic or going up the inside when a vehicle is turning? These are two different things.
Like someone up there said if it only came on when the vehicle was making a left turn maneuver then I can see the point, but to be illuminated at all times is not right, and is at odds with the law/highway code.
Signs like this also have the potential to make the driver lazy. they just think that as they have a sign, they no longer need to bother checking. The onus should always be on the bigger vehicle to not smash the smaller ones.
I don't mind the sign as an additional warning that the vehicle is turning, but to say cyclist should NEVER go up the inside is just wrong.
Interesting range of views :). I'll save myself the effort of emailing them!!
Potentially more hazardous for a cyclist to switch to the offside to pass the van, with potential for being taken out by kamikazi delivery mopeds or putting yourself into oncoming traffic, versus passing on the left if there is no foreseeable risk that the gap is going to close
It’s not aimed at informed cyclists who understand the Highway Code and also how to cycle safely in various scenarios.
Informed cyclists may find it patronising, others with less Road sense might well be very grateful for it
Which year was it they had all those cyclist Deaths in London during the December? was it 2014?
something like 12 people died in a very short space of time just in central London...
IIRC a fair few of those were Vans and goods vehicle pinning riders to railings when turning left. That was kind of the trigger for all the LH bike stickers on various vehicles that operate in town/city centres.
It's not the worst thing in that it is highlighting an actual, real danger.
Admittedly it's done more to try and protect the business from liability, in a "Look we tried to highlight a risk" sort of way, it's clunky and perhaps the graphic/visual design seems a bit 'aggressive' but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing as such.
Illuminated signs seem a bit much, and might not quite be legal as they're easily confused with Brake/turning signals or some sort of Fog light or something(?), but it's the same largely positive intent behind fitting them...
Isn’t it just an illuminated version of the sign that is on countless other vehicles? If you can cope with a non illuminated version without contacting the ceo of the company then what difference do a few leds make?
agree - and if the non illuminated version didnt elicit the same response, I guess it proves the LEDs are in fact needed.
I'm not a fan of the "prohibited" diagramatic message, but "cycists please take care when legally filtering past to the left and make your own judgement on the safety of the manouever based on road layout and other external factors" becomes a bit hard to read, even at 10mph.
Maybe there should be a light that flashes when the vehicle is actually about to make a left turn. To avoid confusion, make it a different colour from the red brake lights. How about orange?
I'm kinda surprised that sign is allowed. Surely it looks too much like a real road sign to be permissible?
The thing is, that doesn't imply at all to me "don't pass on the left" - it just says "no cycling".
My life is too precious to me to filter up the inside of any vehicle. I’ll overtake and filter on the outside like a car or motorcycle would thanks. Feel free to disagree it’s your life and your trust others at stake.
No issues from me. I know how to handle trucks, I'm not going to be offended by it. A lot of people are seriously brainless, and some of those ride bikes. Not only that, but chances are they won't have had any training and may not have had much experience. We all know idiot teenagers who are over-confident - I was one once, perhaps some of them are even you kids. If you were there would you remind them not to go up the inside of the truck? That's all that sign is doing.
I’m kinda surprised that sign is allowed. Surely it looks too much like a real road sign to be permissible?
That's a fair point. Years ago Howies did a keep right sign courier bag that was too close to a real sign, which they had to change.
cycists please take care when legally filtering past to the left and make your own judgement on the safety of the manouever based on road layout and other external factors” becomes a bit hard to read, even at 10mph.
True, but a triangle or parachuting melon (exclamation mark) would achieve that, and use much less LEDs 🤗
No issues from me, either. My daughter now lives in London, and rides Santander bikes semi-frequently. She hasn't had any cycling training, and has never really used a bike regularly. If this sign makes her stop and think I'm fine with it. (And yes: I have told her more than once that she should be very careful around larger vehicles, particularly on the inside).
There are new (EU, hence why we haven't heard about them) rules that have come in for those signs in the last year so they work a little differently to what they used to. They have to flash when indicating left and must be illuminated at speeds below 30kph to try and prevent riders sneaking up the inside. Before they just had to work with the indicators but a lot of the manufacturers went above that standard. Don't forget that even as in the picture above when turning right the tail can swing a fair amount to the left, putting cyclists in danger of being swiped. Not so much of an issue on that 7.5t truck but on larger trucks it can swing out a metre or more on a tight turn. The one on that truck probably doesn't have the speed signal connected so they default to always on.
The van is a 7t Iveco and has some of the best mirrors in the business for visibility so it’s not as though it’s hard to spot cyclists.
A cyclist can disappear pretty much anywhere around a truck, even one fitted with loads of mirrors and cameras. Until you've sat in a cab and had someone walk round it you don't realise how easy it is to just vanish. The driver should always be aware of their surroundings but it's scary how easily a pedestrian/cyclist can unwittingly do the exact movement to vanish while the driver is doing their observations. The worst by far though are the E-scooters which are a genuine risk around large vehicles due to them being no more visible than a pedestrian but moving as fast as a bike.
Don't forget that us lot on here are, on the whole, aware of the dangers and ride accordingly. An awful lot of the general public have no idea that their actions are putting them in severe danger when riding around big vehicles and these warning signals have to cater for them.
Perhaps I'm mis-remembering; but haven't the majority of incidents been caused by lorries failing to pass cyclists before turning, rather than cyclists being caught out filtering on the inside?
A cyclist can disappear pretty much anywhere around a truck, even one fitted with loads of mirrors and cameras. Until you’ve sat in a cab and had someone walk round it you don’t realise how easy it is to just vanish
Agreed, I've driven rigid and articulated and you can lose a whole group in the blindspots. My photo is bit deceiving, this is a panel van cab and a fairly modest box on the back, it's built for weight not volume and its smaller than your average 3.5t furniture van.
Still had blind spots but the left is well covered until you move about 2 metres away from the side of the body. In any close squishing scenario the driver will be able to see you if they choose to check.
I understand the sentiment and I understand that it's the drivers responsibility but I see way too many less experienced cyclists going up the inside of a lorry that is clearly both indicating and starting the turn. It's completely insane. Accidents are usually a combination of things going wrong so anything you can do to reduces those things going wrong is good in my view. It doesn't matter whose fault it was if your dead
TBH a strongly worded letter to the council / gov / traffic lobbying groups to stop painting lines on the road up the left as if its actually safe infrastructure.
Unless its hard barriered its a waste of paint and is giving the wrong message to inexperienced cyclists.
something like 12 people died in a very short space of time just in central London…
IIRC a fair few of those were Vans and goods vehicle pinning riders to railings when turning left
Yes, I remember reading about those. And seeing someone on a shopper, wobbling up the inside of a lorry at a junction absolutely makes my stomach churn with fear. But people still do it!
So if these signs stop a few of those people making dangerous manoeuvres like that then great. I'd expect that knowledgeable and experienced cyclists will still be able to assess the situation for themselves and make a sensible call regardless of what the sign is telling them to do.
Having seen the risks even experienced cyclists will take, I thing anything highlighting potential danger is a good thing.
Just last week someone I ride with posted a video where 'a van driver nearly took him out' which naturally I watched. His complaint was the van driver had 'stopped him from getting past' then 'turned in on him'. He was trying to pass a LWB sprinter on the inside in traffic moving at between 10-15mph on a fairly narrow town centre road. When he did make his move he darted up the inside of the van which was now indicating left and nearly got taken out as the van started to turn into the car park it was indicating to enter.
This is exactly the sort of cycling behavour that every effort must be taken to change. The willingnes to squeaze along the inside of a long vehicle going anything other than a crawl to a junction is something that needs to change. As a driver, it worries me when people do it. As a cyclist I recognise I am squishy and just don't do it!
Like someone up there said if it only came on when the vehicle was making a left turn maneuver then I can see the point, but to be illuminated at all times is not right, and is at odds with the law/highway code.
Signs like this also have the potential to make the driver lazy. they just think that as they have a sign, they no longer need to bother checking. The onus should always be on the bigger vehicle to not smash the smaller ones.
I don’t mind the sign as an additional warning that the vehicle is turning, but to say cyclist should NEVER go up the inside is just wrong.
Well said sir.
I get the sentiment but why in anyone’s world would you not want to discourage going up the inside of vehicles like that.
Because it shifts the responsibility onto the wrong person.
Don't get me wrong, I avoid the nearside of hgvs like the plague, and tell my kids never to undertake/ filter vehicles at lights unless they are 200% sure that they will get there before the vehicle moves.
But in reality it shouldn't be our responsibility. It should be the drivers'.
Sending out the message quoted will make drivers even less likely to protect other road users.
If you could make that led sign invisible to all road users except cyclists, and if the lorry driver was unaware that it existed, then fine, I'd be in favour. But otherwise no.
Yeah, it's always the cyclist's fault
My favourite bit on my commute, where often something will overtake me, then turn left at the roundabout, when I'm going 30mph down the hill leading to it.. Heaven help me if I use the cycle lane as designed and "filter" down the left! (AND, even if they are going straight on there, nearly EVERY SINGLE CAR drives on the red paint on the last few metres! Like steering is so damn difficult)
This:
Also. Bad cyclist!
Because it shifts the responsibility onto the wrong person.
Does it?
Are there not warning signs and alert bleepers and lights and stuff inside the cab?
If the sign makes you mentally pause and question if going up the inside is a sensible thing to do then I'd say its doing its job, regardless of whether your moment of reflection is based on "well the sign is lit so I had better not" or "well the driver drives for a company that thinks flashing lights are the solution to bike safety".
I don't know why it stays on a 60, do they all do that or could it be faulty? Presumably Brakes didn't have them made especially so if you have a design improvement you really want to find the manufacturer.
No, not legally required. Some systems do but they're generally the most expensive ones or factory-fitted. The system also does not shift the responsibility to drive safely from the driver, it's a regulatory and usually an insurance requirement too. A HGV driver is legally presumed* to have a higher level of driving skill and judgement than a regular car driver without a Class 2 or 1 license so if a collision does occur there is much greater scrutiny. Fines and bans are much larger plus the prospect of jail is much higher compared to a car license.
* I know that not all HGV drivers are any good, some are downright lethal!
What exactly are you going to put in your strongly worded letter? What I see is a sign that might just save someone’s life.
The notion a driver will not bother to check mirrors because they’ve got a sign out back is frankly ridiculous.
There are new (EU, hence why we haven’t heard about them) rules that have come in for those signs in the last year so they work a little differently to what they used to. They have to flash when indicating left and must be illuminated at speeds below 30kph
Ahh right. So if we were still in the EU no one would be complaining then?
I work as an HGV driver for a builders merchants, and had some lovely online training today. They showed a video of a lorry driver, who was completely at fault, left hooking a cyclist, and very nearly taking them out. The head of transport then said, "I hate cyclists, that just get in the ****ing way"
This is what we're up against, stay save...
