[Closed] Are Mountain bikings green credentials dead?

Meh, I think cycling's green credentials are pretty weak really, probably worse than a lot of sports in fact, e-bikes and trail centre culture don't help of course but that's the way society is headed...

MTB has only had a smidge of greenwash by (tenuous) association with cycle commuting (or journeys by car replaced by bike).

MTB has always had the requirement of needing a bike to be manufactured when a pair of boots alone would have got you in into the same countryside. MTBing has always had significant numbers of participants driving to do it. It was never all that.

Sure, there are plenty of environmentally worse things to do, but don't kid yourself we were ever special. Ebike and Range Rover bashing is a red herring - it's likely your old bike and sierra in the late 90's were a shit load worse.

Yep, trail centres and ebikes can get in the sea with superboost....I might take up drag racing, seems greener..

“the huge planet killing car”

That’s the issue. Someone needs to be brave enough to legislate against the ridiculous expansion of private cars, especially the idiotic buying of SUVs of all sizes to replace cars of a similar footprint which use less fuel, create fewer particulates from tyres and brakes and actually ride and handle better, all by not being pointlessly tall.

I ride my ebike from home/work 99% of the time, so there’s less environmental impact from that than if you drive to and from a ride on a normal bike.

Remind that bit about “the petrol it took me to get to the start”

Yeah I don’t think MTBing has any green credentials particularly, and certainly not if you drive somewhere to ride. That said, what else are you going to do for fitness? A lot of other sports have a higher carbon footprint no doubt.

This article is interesting. https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/

I offset my weekend MTBing by commuting on bike. I wouldn’t do the latter if I didn’t have the skills/fitness/knowledge from the former 🙂

Tosh, so ebikes don't have a higher cost of maintenance/parts usage? And Rangerovers are clearly good for the planet? I'll get my coat...wasted.

Confusing title.
What green creds do you think MTB ever had?

Oh forgot about the planned obselesance, I'll just throw my bike into a skip on the way home as I can't get a "wingnut"* for it.

*Insert any overpriced carbon component you like here.

It's all relative.

Mountainbiking itself is...what? It's not a thing in itself. It's used to sell stuff like everything else.

It's easy to point at an SUV from a more average car, but both really need to stop existing along with lots of other huge changes in farming, diet, heating etc, to turn things around.

I think you are going down the route that there is one mtbing, one cycling. Like it's an organised religion with a head over various churches.

Cycling is vast, varied and means very different things to different people. For mtbing for one person it maybe riding the sdw ona single speed, for another it's building trails in a small bit of woodland, another it's dirt jumping another it big natural dayout in the all another is bike parks another it more touring / backpacking.

@thegeneralist I had assumed any activity that meant you spent your "average" Saturday cycling instead of buying,driving,eating or in some way consuming was in some way "green" ...I know it's a tired phrase

Back in the day, we rode whatever was there for us - everyone left from their doorstep and away trips weren't an every ride occurence. The sport has grown and evolved and diverged so much that some people have no concept of what a ride is without driving to a man-made trail centre and just following a line of arrows and then driving home - there are plenty who still do doorstep rides, but there are an incredibly small number who only do doorstep rides.

The sport has evolved, people's time has evolved (as well as their disposable income) - so the idea of driving somewhere to go ride their bike isn't a consideration any more - it is now the norm.

We aren't green in anyway, but whilst riding our bikes, it is a pretty green and sustainable effort as it is human-powered, but everything involved in the sport now kind of cancels that out - the manufacture of kit, the supply (due to the sheer volume being supplied across the globe), the demand, the getting to the ride and the removal of unused kit (not a huge amount can be recycled - but there are some people makes in-roads with that nowadays).

As above there isn't one cycling or mountain biking

Ebikes have a bigger impact than acoustic bikes. But in suspect there is overlap. 4 acoustic bikes probably had more impact than 1 ebike

Travel to trails has answers had an impact. I use to think that about rock climbing and surfing has loads of diving around looking for the best spot.

But riding from home surely is a reasonable use of resources.

The act and the technology has an environmental impact, the connection to the environment you do it in and it's affect on your world view and wider behaviours night offset it, for a percentage of the MTB population.

The greenwash of MTBs is just by association with commuting and cycling for transport.

the petrol it took me to get to the start

This is where the carbon footprint lies.

I worked out last time someone asked this that one car driven from Southern England to Glentress emits more carbon than a spangly new carbon bikes manufacturing. E.bike probably more, but still likely to be considerably less than the carbon footprint of the journeys it spends on a boot rack.

Back in the day, we rode whatever was there for us – everyone left from their doorstep

I think that's stretching it somewhat. Even back in the 90s I was turning up for Monday night pub rides* and was in the minority that rode to the start and we had trips to Wales, Yorkshire etc a couple of times a year.

*not the MNPR, just a MNPR.

Obviously depends where you grew up and what age you were...from slightly clear memories, the young ones rode everywhere and there were only a very small number of older guys riding mountain bikes and a few of them drove to ride starts, but they were all in the minority - that was up until about 1996 when it started to change, but very early 00s it was definitely the opposite...it is now the norm (and I'm guilty of it for about half my rides nowadays).

I'm the worst kind of cyclist, I'm a recreational cyclist. Could be worse, I could be spending my time running on an electric treadmill in a lit air conditioned gym.

So, I'm 48. I can smash out that climb on a HT all day. I'm not sure the plump old grey haired lady drinking a Costa coffee (she seemed very nice) could do it without. 1. The coffee. 2. The E(vil) bike. 3. The big car. No offence but I don't see Alex Honnold climbing el cap on an electric winch when he's old n grey...

Obviously depends where you grew up and what age you were

I think that's what scientists would call a longitudinal cohort study.

Ask anyone who started riding MTB as a kid/teenager and they'll tell you that "everyone" rode from home to the woods in the early days. Their definition of when those early days were will vary quite a bit though.

My story is different to yours probably because I started with a cycling club so the group was 15-50 rather than a group of kids.

People these days also eat less sandwiches made by their mum and have later bedtimes. Both of which also result in a higher carbon footprint than when they were younger.

You should push her off next time you see her

@thegeneralist I had assumed any activity that meant you spent your “average” Saturday cycling instead of buying,driving,eating or in some way consuming was in some way “green” …I know it’s a tired phrase

So, should the comparison for the old guys you saw not be to what they would do if they weren’t MTBing, rather than to how it used to be when you were young? Perhaps they are riding e bikes rather than motorbikes? Perhaps they would alternatively be just going for a nice drive in the country all day as my grandparents used to do? Perhaps they would go and join a local flying club and burn fuel for fun? Perhaps they would buy a jetski? Or just stay at home burning wet wood on a fire pit? Or jump on a plane to sit in air conditioning beside a heated pool in between playing golf in the al garve or florida?

I’m not trying to defend mtbing as green but it’s definitely not the worst thing they could do with their day.

Meh, I think cycling’s green credentials are pretty weak really, probably worse than a lot of sports

Because it’s a sport in this country, not a primary mode of transport.

It’s nearly always been ‘greener’ for me as typically commute to work by bicycle, shop by bicycle, exercise by bicycle, ride from door to MTB/gravel/tour/explore except for when I’ll take the bike farther afield by car which is maybe two or three times.

I’m sure others have a similar cycle-centric lifestyle and typically shun driving/motorised vehicles for whatever reasons, but I’d wager they are a minority (in the UK at least).

MTB doesnt have any more green credentials than windsurfing, flying model planes, or any of a bazillion other things that we do for fun that are entirely unnecessary. Every single thing any of us does has an environmental impact, its just a matter of how far along the spectrum it is.

Although I'm amazed at it, I shouldn't be surprised that people drank the kool aid.

They've never been great. I've mostly driven to ride mountain bikes since I moved South in the late 90s and that would apply to most of my riding friends. I try and achieve some balance - with other transport and lifestyle choices (rail commute (pre Covid), very little flying, local journeys by foot and bike etc, no Range Rover) but I'm not daft enough to believe that this makes it "green".

As a kid/teen I would always have ridden from the door BUT I had heaps more time on my hands, the roads were a fraction as busy as they are now (and sleepy Suffolk vs. psycho driver Hampshire) and it was a lot less built up and a lot safer to ride around than my current urban sprawl.

Mountain biking probably isn't much worse than many other sports for the carbon footprint of travelling by car to do a sport. Driving to the golf/tennis/football/rugby club - the away matches etc.

The kit element of it though bothers me - it's clearly good for the industry for everything to wear out every 5 minutes and for standards to regularly go obsolete but its crap for the planet and for those of us who have bikes we're happy with and just want to go ride them. With all the advances in technology and performance the longevity of things like drivetrains has gone in the toilet compared to even 15-20 years ago.

Suppose it depends on what age you consider you are no longer a kid...I was a teenager but the kids ranged from early teens (me and others up to mid-twenties). As well as riding with my mates in the woods, I was also riding to the next counties to go ride in the hills; I was also in the local CTC club and went out with the 'oldies' - who would regular tell me I needed to do more miles to burn the energy out my legs...I was regularly doing over 300 miles a week, so my riding really was riding to every where to ride my bike - I did that up until my late 20s when I got my first car...

So yeah, I'm using the term kids, but I'm not referring to just the young teenagers, quite an age gap...and the guys who were older and some were driving ranged from mid-twenties to early 40s...we did have a good range people who were riding from various backgrounds i.e. kids, 20s, 30s, early 40s and then the real oldies in the local CTC club...

Perhaps foolishly, I'm thinking that is kind of similar to many other people who were mountain biking in the late 80s/90s and into the 00s...it won;'t be identical, but it will be similar for many others.

*edit: except for when I’ll take the bike farther afield by car which is maybe two or three times a year.

Well I dont have a car, in fact im a non driver and for a while, amongst people I knew, I was referred to as Andy Bike.
Shop, commute, day out etc etc, bike only,and for 30 plus years. When I go Ebike, im probably still in green credits.

Are mountain bikings green cred dead, without a doubt, for the reasons above people taking the car out to wherever for a days so's ride.(and lets not get into those who fly to different countries just to go cycling in them 😉 )
Ebikes 😕 Or E(vil) bikes, oh how off putting in a denial sort of way that term is in light of such arguments such as these. Completely new, to the masses that is, 2019 about :?. But its only there as transportation to replace a car for most journeys. Fresh air, light exercise.
I dont see it as the riders fault, more the industry's. Turned it from a pastime or method of transportation into a sport. Theyre inclusion of ebikes into mtb's is just them looking to capitalize further.

I don’t think mtb has ever been green in any way.
To be green the cycle journey has to replace a journey by car bus train etc.
You can use an mtb to do that journey, but that’s about it.
Going out to play on a bike, in whatever way isn’t green except for comparison with something worse (going for a drive for fun etc)

Because it’s a sport in this country, not a primary mode of transport.

for most of us its a pastime not a sport.

It can be very green. Ride an old bike and only replace worn out parts when necessary and always ride it from the door.
It can be very not green. Take e-bike 100 miles in a inefficient brand new car to go for a ride
And all those cases in between.

I am more in the first category but that is just by accident as I always ride from home and have never in my life but my bike in a car to go and ride somewhere as I am happy riding where I live.

Cycling a means of transport is very green even if using an ebike.

Driving to use a bike for a non essential leisure activity has never been green. There's worse things in life though and all journeys are different.

Leisure, however, is important and riding an e-bike around a trail centre is fun. A balance needs to be found and more trails made available locally, especially near cities.

For example, in Manchester, there's definitely potential for a specific trail around the water parks and Mersey, that can be reached on bike easily. Has never happened.

I think cycling’s green credentials are pretty weak really

Always been my view. Unless you can ride from the door, and use it for replacing car journeys commuting etc, I think anyone thinking any bike is "green" is a bit naive, especially as materials have got more exotic and we've got into annual model refreshes etc.

MTBing isn’t green. I don’t think it ever has been. For as long as I’ve been MTBing we’ve often driven to places for a ride.

I do have a rule for this - the rides must be twice as long (time wise) as the car journey or it doesn’t happen.

There are things you can do to make it better:

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I routinely commute about 6000-7000km a year by bicycle, but that’s no MTBing. That’s just commuting and my choice is to do it by bike. MTBing is for fun. It’s no more or less harmful than golf.

Oh forgot about the planned obselesance, I’ll just throw my bike into a skip on the way home as I can’t get a “wingnut”* for it.

Bicycles have always been consumable items. The idea that some-how there was some golden era of frame-component compatibility and longevity is a fantasy. It may have existed for a couple of years in a tiny portion of the bicycle industry in the late nighties and early naughties, but that was probably entirely by accident, not design  From Raleigh's 1930's propriety BB sizing all the way to Super-boost the industries model has always been consumable not compatible .

In objective terms, the green credentials of MTB 30 years ago and today are probably pretty much the same.

lets not forget the amount of CO2 you are going to be breathing out by doing exercise.

I worked out last time someone asked this that one car driven from Southern England to Glentress emits more carbon than a spangly new carbon bikes manufacturing

Thats some complex thing you did, if you did it right.

On driving to ride, a better comparison would be made if the mtbers entire journeys are compared to a non bikers. I occasionally drive to ride but because I am a "cyclist" I ride to work, often ride to the shops etc. Basically I ride as much as I can because I like doing it. I expect many are like me(although I may be the minority amongst MTBers) so whilst my hobby may not be green its overall effect on my life may well be.

No activity like this is green really but as said above it's better than some other pass-times or ways to spend your spare money.

I don't feel too good about the overseas manufacturing, shipping product around the world etc that the bike industry is based on, to be honest. I'm not a big fan of the product direction either - the presentation of carbon as aspirational level, the complexity and obsolescence, plus batteries for uses that were non-powered before. Enjoy e-MTBs.. but I only see e-bikes as truly positive when they're a transport alternative. E-MTBs aren't a major negative in the grand scheme of things yet they could take off-road cycling in the wrong direction in terms of resource impact - you could also keep one running for a long time and it work out as a low impact purchase so it's not all about the product itself.
All this complexity favours big brands and big factories and goes towards products that can have shorter shelf lives, if only through marketing, but also through lack of parts 5 years down the line (entry level e-bikes... battery or controller spares in 5 years time? France's product support law is a good thing).
Hey ho, man shouts at cloud etc. All a symptom of a mature industry and general technology levels we have. 2 wheels are still good, if they make people happier and healthier that's worth so much.

We should look at our lifestyles overall. If you fly on holiday every year (with or without a bike) and drive everywhere (inc places to ride) then you are part of the small percentage of people in the world who can do that, choose to do it or continue doing it, and have a higher than average CO2 impact. The ability to make a change at a personal level is with a minority and we're it. Some of it comes with the life we find ourselves in, some of it may well be a lack of willingness or self-interest and selfishness, plus that useful defence of scepticism maybe.

Ebike and Range Rover bashing is a red herring – it’s likely your old bike and sierra in the late 90’s were a shit load worse.

In terms of cleanliness of manufacturing generally at the time, probably. Car emissions, maybe. The difference is that now there's much wider understanding (vs late 90s maybe, vs early 90s more so) the Range Rover and SUVs like it are responsible for high levels of fuel use, emissions and new car churn that goes with aspirational car ownership is a lot of materials and resources use. Yet people still carry on buying them and car brands keep making them bigger.

I dont see it as the riders fault, more the industry’s. Turned it from a pastime or method of transportation into a sport. They're inclusion of ebikes into mtb’s is just them looking to capitalize further.

Interesting angle. Thinking about that re SUV purchases and wondering if the consumer psychology is the same in MTB (some similarity perhaps). Products sell based on consumer demand so it's a loop that brands and customers both feed into. You can make your own choices, whether to consume new stuff every couple of years or make a product last. Buy a Focus 1.4 or a Range Rover Urban. I know, some would say standards now prevent making bikes last, etc. I don't agree there either ; ) Bikes were fun in the 80s and if nothing had changed we'd be equally happy. We don't need 'better', we choose to want/have it and that's how churn happens.
Edit to add, I think the pass-time to sport thing is just human nature, blokes gonna race.

Are you sure you didn't get the arse as you got overtaken by some ebikers having fun whilst you were wheezing up a hill?
It's just a hobby pissing around in the woods, nothing more.

lets not forget the amount of CO2 you are going to be breathing out by doing exercise.

Yeah and nobody takes into account the amount Vegetarians and vegans fart due to their diet. Yet they blame cows for contributing to global warming.

A bit like the dinosaurs, mostly being herbivores. We may not know for sure what the prehistoric world looked like, but we sure know what it smelled like 😉

aspirational car ownership is a lot of materials and resources use. Yet people still carry on buying them and car brands keep making them bigger. Fk car companies.

I hear ya, but none of that would happen if people didn’t want to buy them.
People are the problem.

The idea that some-how there was some golden era of frame-component compatibility and longevity is a fantasy.

Not really a fantasy, more a choice. I am still riding a bike with;

68 threaded BB and using a square taper BB.
1 inch threaded headset.
1 inch quill stem, 25.4 bars
100 x 9 fork / hub
120 x 10 rear. Okay it is a track frame but even today that is the size used.

All of that stuff has been around for at least 40 years and would be seen as the common standard.

I routinely commute about 6000-7000km a year by bicycle, but that’s no MTBing. That’s just commuting and my choice is to do it by bike.

Are they totally separate and unrelated? Within my group of friends and workmates most of the cycle commuters also cycle recreationally. Does one encourage the other? There is a significant overlap

Oh forgot about the planned obselesance, I’ll just throw my bike into a skip on the way home as I can’t get a “wingnut”* for it.

Or you could donate it to a charity that will recycle it,
Someone like https://www.resurrectionbikes.org.uk/ in Harrogate who always welcome your old bike