Crashtest: Apologies - I'm assuming that everyone who is giving the OP setup advice is doing so because they believe drop bars to be inherently superior to flat bars.
I think everyone's point is that if he set them up differently he might not have the complaints he has about them rather than it being about drop vs. flats.
I'm exactly the same as the OP!
Years of trying and never felt comfortable and YES i've had a bike fit.
I'm far more comfortable (and faster) on a flat bar setup.
Everyone seems to think flats are for upright slow town hybrids etc.. but I don't see why you can't just set them in a similar position to a road bike.
David - the rider in the pic you say is great is putting his back in a position that is very damaging. Basic biomechanics. Low bars give you an aero advantage that is all.
Your normal spinal curvature is this [img] 
[/img]
the rider on low bars is flattening out their lumbar spine and hyperflexing their cervical spine. Now you can learn to adapt to that and more hip flexibility will allow you to retain a bit of the correct lumber carve but you still get the hyperflexion of the cervical curve. Adapting to that position thos will lead to invreased risk of lumbar spinal injury and muscle adaptation that is not at all good for you
If you race then the spinal risk is worth it for the areo but its inherently less comfortable and puts your back under such stress its going to increase your risk of long term damage significantly
David - the rider in the pic you say is great is putting his back in a position that is very damaging. Basic biomechanics
🙂
His spine is nice and straight, there is no hyperflexion anywhere. Look at the picture again.
If you race then the spinal risk is worth it for the areo but its inherently less comfortable and puts your back under such stress its going to increase your risk of long term damage significantly
It is an incredibly comfortable postion. I have ridden like that for miles and miles and years and years and have never had any back/neck issues.
TBF though, I've just looked at the imagine again and it is quite an extreme example. It looks like he's going downhill, he probably doesn't ride with a back like that on level piece of road. The image was intended to illustrate the point about position I was trying to make.
Saddle to bar drop is a red herring, everyone has different core strength.
Sit on your bike, hands on hoods.
Whilst maintaining body position, can you lift your hands off the bars and hold them behind your back, like a speed skater?
If you can't, you're leaning on the bars.
Eventually it will hurt.
Not great for bike control either.
Racing is different, but for long rides, it's a decent rule of thumb.
Maybe it's an age thing. I can ride quite happily all day with a good drop between saddle and bar and no problem in the drops. Mind you, I'm only 60 next year.
You must just have incredible core strength! 😀
While I'd certainly agree that flat bars have some advantages (and my own commuter has flat bars) I've certainly found drop bars the most comfortable option for longer rides. My old Roubaix is about as comfortable as a bike can get, and my setup has the saddle barely higher than the bars:
[img] 
[/img]
His spine is nice and straight, there is no hyperflexion anywhere. Look at the picture again.
Which is why its damaging - it should have 3 equal curves - the neck is hyper flexed and the lumbar region flattened.
You might have adapted to it but you are damaging your spine by doing so.
Its simple basic biomechanics.
[quote=davidtaylforth ]You must just have incredible core strength!
Maybe it's because my weight is taken by my stomach on the top tube?
scotroutes - are your bikes with drop bars not more old school tourer than TDF?
My Amazon (tourer/cx/grrrravel) is quite a bit more upright than my Cube Agree.
Not the best shot, but it'll give an idea.
[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3791/33394614580_689faab0f4_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3791/33394614580_689faab0f4_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/SSY8sU ]DSC_0549[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/druidh2000/ ]Colin Cadden[/url], on Flickr
Not as extreme as DTFs example.
Rusty isn't wrong, and it is not really core strength. It is saddle position so that the weight is taken through the legs. Saddle too far back? You won't be able to do this. Saddle too far forward? Same thing. When the saddle is in the right position you'll be supporting your body comfortably and easily. Only then can you think about where to put the bars.
I can ride on the drops supporting my weight with just a middle finger of each hand. I'm not flexible, I done have a super strong core and I certainly don't do exercises for it. I just make sure that the weight is taken through my legs.
Saddle to bar drop is not aggressively stupid nor is the reach, but I was on the drops for nearly two hrs this afternoon at a stupid fast rate over some rougher roads where contol and braking are essential.
OP, my first thought if that's your bike, is that it looks a bit too big (based on short stem and that you spend all your time on top of the bars and hoods). I’ll your local to Windsor, drop me an email.
Here you go, every MAMILs favourite endurance bike, the Mason Definition. I'm assuming this must be comfy since it gets ridden 4000Km across Europe.
What a super fit cyclist/racer rides, and their position on the bike, is not necessarily what is best for everyone else. I would also be wary of making any assumptions about how comfortable a bike the Mason Definition is based purely on Josh Ibbett winning the TCR on it. Professional and sponsored riders ride what they are given/paid to ride: it's all part of the marketing to persuade MAMILs to buy those bikes.
I guess we are all coming at this based on our own personal experiences and preconceptions (including me: age and less flexibility means that, like the OP, I find it more comfortable with my hands on the flats of drop bars or behind the hoods rather than on them, and I am going to have to take my own advice and start switching to shorter stems). David Taylforth, I think you are relatively young, fit and flexible, and all I can say is prolong it for as long as you can and enjoy it while it lasts. As you say, the riders in the photograph I posted are old and (maybe) unfit, but crucially they are still riding and enjoying it, and they are probably not complaining on an internet forum that they cannot get comfortable on their bikes.
Classic road bikes are ridden in the drops, not on the hoods though.
I don't think that's true: you can find photographs of riders such as Coppi, Merckx etc. etc. on the hoods.
do not copy the position of someone who rides with their bars rotated backward and the levers up in the air. Try and ride quickly down a steep lakeland pass in that position; you'll probably crash and hurt yourself
I would not expect anyone on that sort of descent to have their hands on the hoods. What I am talking about is relative though: rotating the levers back a matter of millimetres on the bars may make a significant difference to hand position and support/comfort, providing of course that it is still possible for the fingers to reach the brake levers comfortably when in the drops.
What I have found frustrating with modern Ergolevers and STI shifters, is that they seem to be designed such that it is often not possible to rotate the levers even slightly back, depending upon the curves of the bars, presumably because the large flat surface on the top of those levers is intended only ever to be horizontal. An old style brake lever however could be rotated up or down the curve to fine tune the rider's position on the hoods. I don't think this is just me: when the second iteration of the Ergolever was introduced, there were reports that a number of pros stuck with the older shape, which meant their mechanics had to dismantle the older levers and rebuild them with the new internals.
davidtaylforth - Member
Classic road bikes are ridden in the drops, not on the hoods though. They don't have compact bars either.
The bars on the blue one look wrong aswell; the flats at the bottom should be parallel with the ground.
Nup. Set up exactly the same as I had it in 1963. Bar points to half way down the distance from the bridge to the seatstay.
Both my road bikes are flat bars, with bar ends. 46cm wide.
Never rated drops. Historical accident is how I see them.
The ergonomics of a bike are up to you. Look at MTBs FFS - see how the bars and geo and width and stems etc. have changed over time. Nothing is fixed, unless you think it's fine, or think it's not really fine but just adapt to it anyway. Which is fine.
I thought I'd have my road-ish bike reasonably upright to watch the world go by, but I found that I was just hunching forward onto the hoods. A bit more space to stretch out was actually more comfortable.
My Fargo is comfortable upright, but I think that's because it's designed to be, with a mahoosive headtube to place the drops at about the same height as a flat bar. Getting an actual road bike to that sort of height would just be daft.
What a super fit cyclist/racer rides, and their position on the bike, is not necessarily what is best for everyone else. I would also be wary of making any assumptions about how comfortable a bike the Mason Definition is based purely on Josh Ibbett winning the TCR on it. Professional and sponsored riders ride what they are given/paid to ride: it's all part of the marketing to persuade MAMILs to buy those bikes
I thought it was a useful example. But look at any other drop bar bicycle (apart from ones posted on this forum); they're setup with the saddle higher than the bars.
I think the OP has two options; set his bike up properly like I suggested, and benefit from increased comfort/handling/aerodynamics. Or fit a shorter stem and some more spacers; in which case he may aswell buy a shopping bike.
Which is why its damaging - it should have 3 equal curves - the neck is hyper flexed and the lumbar region flattened.You might have adapted to it but you are damaging your spine by doing so.
Its simple basic biomechanics.
Do you have a glass back?
Nope - I understand the physiology and biomechanics of the back
I think the OP has two options; set his bike up properly like I suggested, and benefit from increased comfort/handling/aerodynamics.
But he himself states that he has back issues and that he is riding more on the flats and the rear of the hoods. If he is already finding the hoods an uncomfortable stretch, then lowering the bars further is simply not going to be the answer.
In general, I don't necessarily disagree with you about bars the same height as - or higher than - the saddle on a road bike. My own experience is that it unweights the front too much, especially when riding off road (although that can be overcome then by switching to the drops - and there is an argument for higher bars when someone finds it a struggle to stay in the drops for any length of time).
However, simply lowering the bars to the same position as a pro road racer is not the correct answer to what is the most comfortable and best/optimum position for everyone on a drop barred bike. Even pro riders themselves will sometimes raise their bars for more comfort, and Robbie McEwan needed the services of a chiropractor after every race/stage for his back.
What's so awesome about drop bars off road?
Multiple hand positions, being able to get upper body lower on fast flat sections, when on hoods arms in natural position (i.e. same as they are when resting arms by your side)
But he himself states that he has back issues and that he is riding more on the flats and the rear of the hoods. If he is already finding the hoods an uncomfortable stretch, then lowering the bars further is simply not going to be the answer.In general, I don't necessarily disagree with you about bars the same height as - or higher than - the saddle on a road bike. My own experience is that it unweights the front too much, especially when riding off road (although that can be overcome then by switching to the drops - and there is an argument for higher bars when someone finds it a struggle to stay in the drops for any length of time).
I think he has back issues because he is trying to bend his back to reach the bars. I've explained in a previous post that to reach the bars he needs to rotate his pelvis forward, and by doing this there'll be no stress or tension in his back (contrary to what TJ believes).
However, this position can feel alien/be difficult to achieve if:
a. You're used to riding in the sit up and beg position (i.e on an mtb)
b. Your stem is too high and too short (this position lengthens your effective reach to the bars by a great deal), as this will give you no space to rotate in to.
My suggestion on the previous page was merely a way to get the OP to sit correctly on the bike. Setting his bike up at the extreme will give him no choice but to adopt the correct position. From there, it's easy to work out small changes as to where the contact points should be.
I have no idea what this position is like with regards to drop bar bikes and technical off road riding; for example, I prefer high riser bars on an MTB.
But for fast road/gravel riding, this is how you should sit on a bike. A high front end on a road bike is a handling nightmare.
Hopefully someone'll put this into practice, as it's probably the only useful contribution I've made to this forum 😀
You also don't need to be some super fit/flexible athlete either. I sit at a desk for most hours of the day and have tight hip and leg muscles (although I do stretch them every now and again).
Setting his bike up at the extreme will give him no choice but to adopt the correct position.
Or could injure him badly and affect his life forever after.
What a daft thing to say. Drop bars aren't for everyone, just accept it.
You have reinforced my first post anyway. 🙄
Or could injure him badly and affect his life forever after.What a daft thing to say. Drop bars aren't for everyone, just accept it.
You have reinforced my first post anyway
😀
I'm just trying to help the OP, or anyone else who isn't an ignoramus.
It sounds like you're bitter/jealous of the "drop bar fanatics" who get to enjoy all the benefits of the racing bicycle. I bet you don't even wear lycra.
Be careful whilst you're making dinner; you might injure yourself badly and change your life forever.
Interesting, I see what you are getting at now. I must admit I am out of date on bike fit (although humans don't change, only the science or the opinions/errors of scientists), but about 15-20 years or so ago I think many coaches were advocating rotating the hips forward to get a better aero position, at which point there was a backlash and some studies pointed out that this was causing problems for many riders, e.g. cutting off blood flow to the penis/penile numbness etc. I don't know what the current state of the science is: a quick google seems to suggest some bike fit advisors are still recommending it, but that others advise against it, e.g. this [url= https://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering-field-notes/the-four-and-a-half-rules-of-road-saddles ]article[/url] on Cervelo's website on the wider issue of saddle fit etc. mentions similar.
It's probably the case that there is no absolute right or wrong answer as to whether rotating the hips and pelvis is a good or bad thing, and what will suit one person will not suit another, but I think its use was more associated with the triathlon/time trial side of the sport, i.e. sacrificing comfort to maximise aerodynamics and speed for relatively short distance/durations events.
At the end of the day, we are speculating about the cause of the OP's problems, and it's probably impossible to be confident of diagnosing them correctly remotely: all we can do is offer suggestions (some even conflicting) and it's up to the OP whether he tries any of them, although it sounds like money spent on a high quality bike fit session would be worth while, even if he decides to go with flat bars, i.e. to get at the root of the problem and better understand his own body (what should work for him, and what won't - as opposed to having spent 10 years peservering with something which might possibly be very easily remedied, and improve riding pleasure and performance hugely).
My own background is coming from the touring side of cycling, and the difference between very fit and fast hard riders and ordinary riders was not the position on the bike: everyone had a similar set up: the fast riders went faster because they were fitter (heart, lungs and legs), and if they needed to get more aerodynamic, they just switched from the hoods to the drops. There were none of the complaints that are so common today about being unable to get comfortable on a bike, and specialist bike fitting was pretty much unheard of. It's a debatable point whether we were ignorant of the potential performance gains we could have made by changing bike set up, or whether many modern riders are guilty of putting too much focus on improving performance by choosing a fundamentally uncomfortable position (e.g. 'slam that stem').
If you've come to road riding from an MTB background, I can understand how you might automatically seek to copy the position and set up of the pro road racers, but it might be better to start with a much more relaxed/comfortable position, and improve basic fitness and speed in that position, before experimenting with a more aggressive position.
Yes, sitting on your penis is probably not a good idea. I think alot of saddle discomfort is caused by having a seat too high.
I've posted these videos before, but worth a watch. I should've probably just posted them straight away TBH 😀
davidtaylforth - Member
...But for [b]fast[/b] road/gravel riding, this is how you should sit on a bike. A high front end on a road bike is a handling nightmare...
I don't disagree with your opinion here, but it is coloured by your bias towards fast. I suspect what you call a roadbike is what I'd call a racing bike.
The advantage I see in dropbars in what I call a roadbike is the ability to have a few different positions on a long day. For example, if I'm riding into a headwind when I'm heading west, which can be 30-40 miles, then being able to get down and lower my frontal area is good>
However I far prefer to be sitting up looking at the scenery. I am not a fast rider and have no ambitions to be fast or racey, but I'm still quite at ease knocking out 100-140 mile days. If there was no such thing as a headwind I'd just use a one position bar.
A high front end on a roadbike is only a problem if it has the wrong geometry for that set up.
the OP has made a schoolboy error by riding on the tops at a time when there was a possibility that he might need to apply the brakes . I would take a bit of time to reflect on this and then get back in the saddle and don't try to ride a droppie like you would a MTB .
Interesting videos, but a bike shop owner(?) and a couple of seemingly unimpressive amateur/novice riders are not good evidence for the correctness of the hip tilt approach.
Compare with the positions of road racers of the last couple of generations:
[u]Armstrong[/u]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
A couple of his bikes
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
On the drops
[img] 
[/img]
Time trial position
[img] 
[/img]
[u]Greg Lemond[/u]
Descending. To get low, his elbows are bent at 90 degrees. He also used a very deep drop bar (Cinelli model 66 aka 'Eddy Merckx' I think), together with the traditional curve and quill stem which put the flats higher than the brake levers, that gave a lot of variation in position.
[img] 
[/img]
In the drops with Fignon
[img] 
[/img]
The 1989 TDF time trial position
[img] 
[/img]
More recently
[img] 
[/img]
[u]Pantani[/u]
[img] 
[/img]
One of his bikes. He was quite short, but even so not much of a saddle to bars drop.
[img] 
[/img]
I'm amazed somebody tried something they didn't like for 10 years, 😯 seems a moronic way to go about things, I would have given it a couple of months to form an opinion not 10 years.
MrSmith wins the internet.
Position is personal. Plenty of road riders have straight backs, so while it's not for everyone, to write it off is silly.
DTF is definitely trolling
Dont people run more seatpost now than in those photos because of compact geometry has become the norm?
Did the online bike fit from here yesterday:
[url= https://www.competitivecyclist.com ]https://www.competitivecyclist.com[/url]
Gives you three fits, Eddy Merckx fit, Modern race fit and French fit, set mine up to Merckx and super comfy, landed up putting my seat up quite a bit and my seat forward a good whack and now have much happier knees, suddenly have forearms that are at 90 degrees rather than stretched out and the drops are easy to sit rather than a struggle, 15 minutes of taking funny body measurements well speant
hmm, just tried that Competitive Cyclist tool. I'm 177cm (5'10") with an 82cm (32") inseam. It told me to set my saddle-to-BB height at 83cm. How TF am I supposed to be able to pedal then?!
Move your ankle? 😀How TF am I supposed to be able to pedal then?!
I've given drops a few decent tries over the year but finally gave up and built a nice, light, fast hybrid. Wish I'd done it years ago tbh, I can't think of a single time when I've wished I was on drops. Being able to use cheap old mtb parts is grand too, when people complain about the cost of hydro discs or light road wheels I think, my oros cost me £50 in 2010 and my QR-only 29er wheels were £100 and weigh 1500g, what's so tricky?
I've had similar problems with drops. Because I'm a bike fiddler though, I fiddled with the setup until I got it right.
The problem is that thare are so many more variables than on an MTB that it takes a while to crack. But I feel that there IS a drop setup for everyone out there somewhere. Worth it, imo.
Even saddle position and angle has a bearing on how comfortable the drops are.
