bazzer - there are a lot of people who simply are not interested in maintaining bikes. They use bikes but are not people for whom cycling is a hobby.
teh STWer and their mates are not the norm in cycling
Bike Forum
will the sport survive without the LBS...?
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Posted 6 months ago #
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bazzer - there are a lot of people who simply are not interested in maintaining bikes. They use bikes but are not people for whom cycling is a hobby.
Totally understand that, but its not a case of can't its a case of can't be bothered.
I can understand someone who says don't want to do it because I just can't be bothered that's fair enough.
I don't change the oil on my car these days, I could and its not because I don't have the tools etc. Its because I am too lazy to crawl underneath the car.
Its just all the excuses that are trotted out about not having the tools or skills etc. Its a bike not a life support machine.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The ability to service a bike is not a requirement to describe your interest as a 'hobby'. I clean, oil, bleed and repair everything I can. But socks, forks etc... are areas I just won't go, at least until I'm retired and have the time.
My other 'hobby' is photography; and you won't find me dismantling my £800 SLR either...
Posted 6 months ago # -
Some people just aren't mechanically minded. I'm not musical - parents and teachers tried to teach me a variety of instruments, from piano to guitar to oboe, and none of it stuck - I'm just not musical. In the same way, some people just aren't mechanical.
There's also a matter of time - there's no way a home mechanic, even one with a stble of bikes, will spend as much time repairing bikes as someone who's been doing it all day, every day for years. All that experience adds up.
I'm not saying all LBSs are perfect - the majority of the more complex Rohloff repairs I do, for example, are fixing the bodged repairs of other bike shops.
Posted 6 months ago # -
sure ask1974 - I was thinking about two of Mrs TJs colleagues - their bikes are a means of transport - bought new, serviced by the shop.
Posted 6 months ago # -
ask, socks are nothing to worry about. bit of darning and they'll be fine
I'm the same. happy doing most things, but the cost of a headset press, and the complexity of suspension mean i'll hand stuff like that over to the pros. BTW, i learnt everything i know from the park website
Posted 6 months ago # -
Wow - I expected this thread to be supportive of LBS, but on the contrary generally. That is a real surprise.
I think the issue is hard and I am inconsistent in buying behaviour. My heart hopes that LBS and specialist retailers survive and prosper but my head reminds me that no business has a right to exist. Everyone has to earn that right. I would happily pay a little bit extra for good service and to keep a specialist retailer in business, but the gap between pricing is becoming so great that this becomes difficult.
I was recently in lakes and shattered my helmet in crash at Whinlatter (note to TJ - head took all the impact first!!). Shops at Trail Centre and at Ambleside stocked comfortable Giro Hex replacement at £75. But wiggle is 30%, yes 30%, cheaper before discount voucher. This is too much for me to cover, so I bought from Wiggle.
But at the same time, local bookshop (that I have always loved and patronised) had Lakes MTB guide at @£16 versus Amazon at $11ish, an even bigger discount but somehow I wanted to use the shop as I have been doing on and off for 20 years. Where is my logic??
But its really quite simply - if the LBS offers a service that people value, it will stay in business, if not it won't. Simples! (unlike certain parts of our economy of course, but that's another story!).
Posted 6 months ago # -
What about places like Evans that offer price matching to CRC et al? Internet prices, the ability to try stuff out/on as well as mechanic services seem quite formidable in comparison. However the knowledge of the staff is not always as broad as I would like it to be.
I try and use my independent LBS if it's something I can't do myself, but I also see that as an opportunity to get new tools and learn more.
How can we produce more Danny Harts and Steve Peats if everyone gets someone else to work on their bike? I think it is an integral part of developing your riding to also enhance your mechanical knowledge. Understanding how the bike works makes it easier to ride/set up.
There are also a lot of other cyclists who are newcomers to the sport and would never think of shopping online. They are directly affected by the LBS' range. There are a high number of Ridgeback, Specialized and Halfraud's bikes in Brighton which is exactly what you can buy locally.
We also have a community bike service called Crank's where people are taught how to repair as they are guided through by a mechanic and the parts and labour are barely more than cost. It's a not for profit group that has gained a huge following. More of these please!
Posted 6 months ago # -
My L(ish)BS closed down about a year back, shame as the sunday rides used to be good, the pace seemed to drop off when it was no longer being led by the shop so I stoped going.
My actual LBS is rubbish, Ok so they organise the local race series which is good I suppose if you race, but they charge £17.99 for brake pads (thats one end, so £36 for a bikes worth!). With prices like that I often wonder why the L(ish)BS didnt survive.
Posted 6 months ago # -
+1 for teamhurt more. I just cant afford to ignore big price differences. Bike station is good for learning as well.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The LBS will survive. There are more bikes than ever in the UK and the vast majority of them will have owners who have absolutely no interest in servicing them.
Even most decent home mechanics reach their limits and rely on the LBS for the bigger jobs they don't have the tools/expertise to perform.
Mechanical knowledge is hard won. Practical skills take a while to develop especially when you are learning through trial and error.
A pure guess but here's how I reckon the general public breaks down regarding bike maintenance
Keeps it cleaned / lubed: 20%
Basic Maintenance - Indexing gears / changing pads/blocks: 10%
Can change parts / build a bike: >5%
Can service complex parts eg forks: >1%Admittedly its probably also true that a large majority don't care that they are riding a creaky rusting piece of pig iron but there is still a massive gap between the home mechanic / enthusiast and even the majority of regualar / semi-regular cyclists
Posted 6 months ago # -
Feeling quite smug I'm in the 1% category
Posted 6 months ago # -
From an LBS point of view.
Over the last couple of years I have seen my trade bias shift far more towards servicing than sales.
There is little point in me stocking anything much high end as if I did I'd still have most of it a year later and only be able to sell it for less than I'd have bought it for. I regularly have to apologise to customers for only being able to show them catalogue pictures of the products that would fit their requirements. I'd love to have a shop full of all the best stuff but if I did I'd eventually have a museum rather than a shop.
The big online retailers are always going to be able to offer the cheapest prices because they have the buying power to get their stock cheaply -- just like Tesco. Also, how much do they have to pay the staff who put your shiny new parts in cardboard boxes and tape them up?
The majority of my customers think £500 is a lot to spend on a bike and as long as the supermarkets etc continue to to sell cheap bikes I'll continue to make a living patching them up. It's always refreshing to have more enthusiastic and discerning customers in the shop but round here they are too few to be a significant part of my business model.
Posted 6 months ago # -
MB - interesting comments. What are your thoughts on product pricing? I cannot understand the inflation in pricing in most areas of mtb kit. Are suppliers deliberately restricting supply to keep prices high? How do plan for stock? In the current climate, why would you risk holding £2-5k bikes? Is the risk worth taking?
Posted 6 months ago # -
There are a couple of things I don't understand about the LBS business.
First is why do they not push back on the importers/manufactures refuse to take product from them if they don't give you a competitive pricing structure.
Why don't LBS sell online as well to get their volumes up? Ebay and Amazon allow simple entry into online sales.
Times are changing and customers need a compelling reason to spend money these days.
I do agree though with what has been said I think the average STW'er is probably not the market your typical LBS is targeting these days. Maybe they could though with the right plan in place.
Posted 6 months ago # -
If you are a good lbs then you will survive. Not everybody has the inclination to fix their bike, nor the tools, nor the space, nor the time. Customer service is paramount.
It's great that some sponsor young riders and races too.
My biggest complaint has always been the lack of demo bikes available, fine if you're a medium or large. I really believe that manufacturers should pull their finger out to help the retailers - any size should be available, for a charge obviously.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Demo bikes have always been a difficult one, from an uninformed perspective say you stock 3 makes, with perhaps 4 fundamentally different models and maybe go with 3 sizes as demos that would be 36 different demo bikes without breaking sweat.
And that is before you get in to people who want to try a custom build frame only option.
Good bike shops do exist and should be cherished for the effort they do put in. The world would be a lot worse if they died out and the only option for getting stuff fixed was Halfords.
Also - what price the benefit of being able to wander in to a bike shop with the kit you bought (and broke) hand it over with the sentence "look what happened?" and know that they will do something to resolve it.
Posted 6 months ago # -
On the subject of Demo bikes LBS's again need to push back on the suppliers to tell them they need to support them with this.
No car dealer would expect you to buy a car without having a test drive. You don't go into a BMW dealer and be told that they can't be expected to have a demo M3 because they are really expensive.
Posted 6 months ago # -
[quote]There are a couple of things I don't understand about the LBS business.
First is why do they not push back on the importers/manufactures refuse to take product from them if they don't give you a competitive pricing structure.
Because you would have no stock at all, some suppliers are better than others, and some are working harder than others at supporting LBS, but the big boys are very often bypassing the importers and going direct.
Why don't LBS sell online as well to get their volumes up? Ebay and Amazon allow simple entry into online sales.
Because to do 'online' properly costs a lot more than setting up an LBS. Ebay/Amazon fees are astronomical and do not work on the 30-40% margins which are available to LBS'. I've run an onlibe bus for 10yrs, a LBS for 3, don't do online for the LBS as the cost of entry is now too high, can't compete with CRC, wiggle, merlinTimes are changing and customers need a compelling reason to spend money these days.
Yes, but the LBS is never going to be able to offer lower prices, we have to offer something which is different and less price sensitiveI do agree though with what has been said I think the average STW'er is probably not the market your typical LBS is targeting these days. Maybe they could though with the right plan in place.
[i]The average STW'er is probably not a key target for the average LBS, although there is always the odd one who will shop local becuase they value having an LBS. STW'ers are generally pretty clued up on what they need and where to get it, and many can fit it themselves as well, so not really in need of local service, it is however very much worth doing your best to keep them happy, as they are likely to point work colleages etc in your direction, even if they themselves don't spend much.Posted 6 months ago # -
Totally agree with you there shortcut. But as a 'small' size rider, it's jolly frustrating particularly if you want some bling! I've been known to completely tie myself in knots comparing geometry on various bikes.
I might add that I have been known to phone my lbs when I've had a mechanical on the trail.
Posted 6 months ago # -
My biggest complaint has always been the lack of demo bikes available, fine if you're a medium or large. I really believe that manufacturers should pull their finger out to help the retailers - any size should be available, for a charge obviously.
Totally agree, but this has to come from the importers, they should keep a good range of demo bikes and make them available to dealers for the cost of the courier fee to send it back and fwds, but they don't, dealers have to buy the demo bikes, hence no small sizes. It's hard enough just stocking small sizes, as these are generally the ones left at the end of the year which have to be discounted.Posted 6 months ago # -
Teamhurtmore, the price rises over the last couple of years are usually blamed on the currency exchange rates. Suppliers have to forecast demand 9 months in advance so they're more likely being over cautious than deliberately restricting supply. Given the small size of my shop and it's location in a satelite (dormitary) village to a larger town, I don't stock any bikes over about £650.
Bazzer
Any LBS could sell online but it would require a big investment in a complex website, purchasing and staff to stand any chance of competing with the existing players. Also, I prefer to see my customers and talk to them.
Posted 6 months ago # -
So what is the answer then LBS's ?
Or is there not really a problem and you guys make your money from C2W people and commuters who can't fix a puncture ?
You can't really blame customers for buying online when they can get it cheaper and quicker from Wiggle or CRC. Its interesting CRC and wiggle market to me and send me vouchers for money off etc. My local LBS just moans that people look at stuff in his shop and buy it online, to the point I don't like going in just in case they think I am doing that
Posted 6 months ago # -
bazzer - Member
To an extent.
So what is the answer then LBS's ?Or is there not really a problem and you guys make your money from C2W people and commuters who can't fix a puncture ?
You can't really blame customers for buying online when they can get it cheaper and quicker from Wiggle or CRC. Its interesting CRC and wiggle market to me and send me vouchers for money off etc. My local LBS just moans that people look at stuff in his shop and buy it online, to the point I don't like going in just in case they think I am doing that
I used to work in an LBS and we'd often point people to CRC/Wiggle/Merlin if we knew it could be bought cheaper there. Forks are a classic example - there are so many models and the cost to the retailer is so high that it's not really worth stocking them.Shoes - have you any idea how many folk go into a shop to try them on and then buy them online? Why would any shop invest in a decent stock knowing they have only become a changing room for CRC?
Good LBSs also do "special offers" - often relying on an added bonus of internet sales to get volumes up to a point where trade prices are more attractive.
Oh - and as for competing with the "big guys" - when one company is responsible for manufacture (albeit outsourced), import, distribution and retail, can you really expect a small shop operating on minimal margins to compete?
Posted 6 months ago # -
I think the LBS needs to change with the times. My LBS (spiritually, not geographically) has an active Facebook page, blog and website, and continually changing promotions to drive custom.
Whether this works or not I am completely unaware as I'm just a customer, but it's a refreshing approach compared to their competitors in the area whose marketing is either non-existent (in most cases) or bland corporate despite appearing from the outside to be a cooperative organisation.
Edit: Druidh wrote pretty much what I was thinking as I was typing it, incidentally about the same shop...
Posted 6 months ago # -
Also an LBS bloke here.
As stated already the vast majority here are keen bikers, a very small percentage of overall riders.
We target £300 to £1000 in bike sales, doing alright so far this year so must be doing something right.
Servicing and essential spares is hwere it's at as well, lots of disc pads, gloves, the smaller stuff.
As for demo bikes, they are a waste of time, occasionally get some in, but often they get the demo from us and buy it cheaper online.
Seems very obvious this year, particulary with kids bikes they want to use us to 'size up' their kids then go buy elsewhere. In other industries this would be 'consultation' as charged accordingly.
At the same time I understand the need to get a bargain or save money.
It's a case of working out who you can turn into long term customers, and who is wasting your time.
Yes we're on Facebook now and trying to offer better deals for regulars.
Posted 6 months ago # -
In other industries this would be 'consultation' as charged accordingly.
I don't think so - retail clothes? cars? motorbike kit?
Posted 6 months ago # -
Seems very obvious this year, particulary with kids bikes they want to use us to 'size up' their kids then go buy elsewhere. In other industries this would be 'consultation' as charged accordingly.
I'm certain that this is something that affects a lot of specialist retailers, not just bike shops. Not sure what you can do about it as the modern consumer seems preprogrammed to take the piss.
It's one thing to ask for advice from a retailer and then walk away because you either thought the advice was a bit duff or you just didn't like the cut of their jib. But to get good advice and recommendations and then buy online from somewhere that isn't able to provide the same quality of service is poor form.
Posted 6 months ago # -
But every time someone comes through your door to try before they buy online YOU have an opportunity to convert them into a customer.
You just need to find the right way of doing it. Even if its selling them something else other than the thing they came to try that you can't compete on.
You need to be a salesman !!!
Posted 6 months ago # -
I always used to think that bike shops were going to die out with the Internet's cheap prices and how to guides. But since I've been working as a mechanic in a shop, I have been amazed just how incompetent soooo many people are. People who outwardly seem intelligent and discerning, but who seem unable to do even the easiest puncture repair correctly. And I think that's fine really. I think bikes are easy to repair, but it's good for my future employment if it seems like voodoo to other people!
Posted 6 months ago # -
shoes: why not charge £10 for people to try them on, but then take that money off the price if they decide to buy a pair from you.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I bought my road shoes from the LBS. They were a fair bit more expensive from them but I had a laugh with the owner trying them on and I took so long I thought I could not buy them online
Posted 6 months ago # -
I started reading this and at first thought jesus, were all doomed, no-one likes the LBS so may as well pack up and go home.
But then I remembered the reason I set up my shops in the first place was because I didnt like the shops in the area and the attitude of the staff.
i cant claim were a great shop, and we have been changing our line up over the years, but servicing is important, high end stuff is really hard to manage, we keep trying. Demo bikes are difficult, we used to have a few, but then tried to work with the importers, but they let us down badly, I think some reps have favourite shops and they get all the demo bikes (could be me just being bitter at not ever getting the demo bikes when I need them)
now we are more about commuters and bikes up to £800, and then we do bikes in the £3k area like Yeti, transition and Lapierre.
weird.as an LBs we have done loads for local up and coming talented riders and our race team is brilliant, I used to do a lot of shop rides but havent been able to recently through illness but do our best to get involved with local riding groups.
We promote cycling with the council, and local traibuilders, we got a skills area and pump track built in The local area, we organise races for BC. fight for access rights with council and land owners.Its the love of cycling that drives us and I fear that when some of the good local bike shops fold then we will all be worse off for it.
I cant see large chains getting involved at the local level and helping out, they will always want to support the big names as they are the ones they will want to see with their logos on in the glossy magazines.
So I see the sport surviving, but grass roots racing has/will die off.Posted 6 months ago # -
Sorry Bazzer but you're being a bit too idealistic there. In the real world it just doesn't happen like that. There's just too many people out there for whom the only thing that matters is the number after the pound sign. It wouldn't be a cost effective use of my time to spend too long persuading people to buy something that I've had to drop the price so far on that I'm only making pennies doing it. The knock on effect would be that word would soon get round and everyone would expect me to work for next to nothing.
When I've got a workshop full of repairs waiting to be done I will politely apologise to people for not having the time for a long conversation if I feel they are just wasting my time and I have promises to keep that I made earlier in the day
Posted 6 months ago # -
So given that CRC/Wiggle/some other online empire more often than not puts stuff up at trade + VAT.
just WHAT do you lot expect LBS's to do sell it to you at a loss?? and that doesn't even take into account volume discounts etc....
LBS's struggle to compete on price because they cannot buy it as cheaply as the online sellers!
Posted 6 months ago #
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