[Closed] STW Zwift Autumn Race Series 1

They are nice rollers, but not smart and then using powermeter pedals. They have a bit of magnetic resistance (manual 0,1, or 2 setting) which helps. I'm slowly getting more used to them.

Enjoyed last night only down side FTP has gone up from 222 to 230, Robbo can you make the adjustments to handicap if required.

see you next week.

My Garmin tells me that my workout for the race was a “5”, I’m overreaching, and I need to recover for 3 days! Sounds about right! Definitely still not 100% fri the cold, but hope that was kill or cure, and I’m still here. It also suggested a new FTP about 15w lower than current setting, but I’ll stick where I am for now.

Urgh... the lurgi has hit me.. sore throat.. blocked nose.. hot hot hot....

So far from covid symptoms, but will ask work to test me anyway (we can only test staff)...

Managed a jog today for the 100 days thing.. want to keep that up too, so going to chill the intensity to a) keep up 30 min of exercise daily and b) be good for the race on Tues!

DrP

That sounds a bit like what I had. Rest up if you can and I hope it passes quickly. I didn’t get test but rest of family did as they had coughs and I figured if they had it I would too. All were negative. I reluctantly took antibiotics in the end as throat was bit ulcerated and want getting much better after over a week. Seemed to help, but I suspect it was probably just viral and I was on the mend anyway. Should’ve rested more, but work’s been nuts.

I know this is all fun and it really is.

I don't understand how the same riders have pretty much the same high points week in week out.

Don't mean to be party popper and I'm enjoying the racing just can't understand how this is leveling the playing field it seems to be just rewarded dubious low quoted numbers weight and ftp numbers, making those who have given accurate ftp and weight numbers a decidedly average points and punishing those who have overestimated their abilities.

If it keeps riders happy thatay be OK. But it is suspected 🤥 although perhaps well intentioned and their maybe other factors.

Hope this does insult anyone and I respect the amount of work that goes into it.

I know you can dope your weight and height on zwift with ease but at least your kind of only cheating yourself with this series optically it is obvious you cheating your fellow racers

For that reason I'm going to bow out of the series not because I didn't enjoy the racing just that it's a failed experiment in my opinio. Thanks for you efforts robbo really appreciate and wish you all the best woth the remainder of the series

Fair enough. But if it’s fun, really what’s the issue? I reckon everyone is being as honest as they can be. The handicap is maybe a bit of a blunt tool, but it seems to work ok. If folk are really manipulating their weight or ftp, then they really are just cheating themselves - even more so here given the nature of the series than elsewhere in Zwift. If anyone is worried about overestimating ability, just do the Zwift ramp test and jump on the scales to check.

Sounds like you’ve made up your mind though.

I know you can dope your weight and height on zwift with ease but at least your kind of only cheating yourself with this series optically it is obvious you cheating your fellow racers

I'm 4th in the handicap standings as off just now, so one of the folks you are basically accusing of cheating.

I'm happy to send a pic of me standing on my very expensive scales to prove my weight. And if you check my zwift power profile my best ever 20 min power is 279. Times that by .95 and you get 265, which I believe is the ftp I said I had when I entered. My power is from a proper power meter, so as accurate as it's going to be. There is no cheating at this end, and I'm one of the high scorers.

So basically everyone else is either overestimating their abilities, the handicap system is a bit off, or I've just had 3 good days. Either way it's pretty pathetic to enter, get beaten, then throw your toys out the pram and accuse others of cheating.

Unless of course you are 12..in which case I'll let you off.

I'm normally 72kg... since busting the arm I'm down to 70kg... (interestingly, you can see after a meal, drinks, and dressed and pre poo i can still top 72!
But naked weight is 70..
I'm slowly pushing it up again, and will change weight in zwift accordingly..

My ftp is what it is... went up after the hill climb race too....

I think the handicap system isn't perfect, but what can Robbo do?
I mean... on the flat Phil56 would whip me in a tt. But stick is in a pack and I can keep up, and thus my handicap beats him.

But also, REALLY.....

I MEAN... REALLY!!

JEESH!

DrP

My weight and FTP fluctuates a bit but not much. My riding style during the last race changed throughout the race depending on which power up I received. I tried to use the power ups thoughtfully to help the group I was in bring the riders ahead in. I couldn't convey that during the race tho.
Maybe the power ups should be disabled?
I enjoyed the race, found my in ability to communicate with the group I was in difficult (but eventually my typing may improve whilst racing).

tpbiker

I’m 4th in the handicap standings as off just now, so one of the folks you are basically accusing of cheating.

You definitely aren't weight doping or whatever. That said I suspect you are part cyborg based upon at the clip you pass me.😁

Some paper fit guys in the races, its honestly something to behold, something to aspire to in fact. For me anyway!😁

For the most part weight surely just needs to tally between what is in Zwift and used for handicap.

For FTP the average power is in the results so it is going to be obvious if somebody antidoped that.

This is mostly a fun challenge, right?

Val - Thanks for the feedback and taking part.

There are a lot of riders in the range of low 90s to low 100s in weight with FTP of 250 to 290. I fit within this range (I am at the lower end at the moment though lol) and it is very competitive. The W/kg can vary from 2.5 up to about 3.1 but on a flat circuit like the Volcano these guys can mostly stay together despite the differences. This comes down to how much they can dig deep mentally, how things go on the road, how well they use the draft. If you are able to get in a faster group and hang on in the draft this can easily get you a nice little gap. The trick is hanging on as long as you can without blowing up completely so when you inevitability fall off the back you can maintain that to your peers.

Over the summer I did loads of Zwift climbing and got really good at climbing. I was keeping up with @oop north and we could gap @mrhoppy by a minute or two on 25 min climbs. Now mrhoppy has worked really hard upped his game and is getting up the climbs faster than me. Nothing much has changed about our weights or FTPs but its about how we can apply that, how we feel on the day, what else is going on etc. Last Thursday on the TTT I flew past mrhoppy at one stage but on Tuesday I couldn't hang in his draft. There are so many variables. I have only given these examples as these are guys I regularly ride with and know strengths and weaknesses pretty well.

In any case I haven't seen any evidence of massive increases on average power over a race against the FTPs. Apart from the climbing courses the weight doesn't make a huge difference as you can see from the range of different weights that are able to ride together as a group and be competitive with each other.

I trust that everyone is doing the right thing and giving the right weights, FTP etc.

The thing that I am enjoying about the series is that everyone gets together on here and has a chat. Normal zwift racing you do your race, cool down, get of the bike, have a look on zwiftpower and forget about it. The community here has made it something else with the discussions pre and post race. Its not perfect but we look like we have made some money for charity (which could save a young persons life), had fun and given people something to look forward to on a Tuesday evening as the nights start drawing in. From what I can tell people are improving and getting involved and that has to be a good thing. If it starts a habit in someone that has been avoiding getting on the bike and that grows into something else that makes them happier or fitter then that has to be a good thing.

Anyway invite has gone out for next weeks race and I am working on the handicaps

🙂

Will hopefully get the handicaps out later today!

I'm 100% sure that all riders in the series are riding pretty much on their correct levels, sure there may be 1kg here or 2w there but I think any accusations are completely wrong.

I'd even go as far as to say many are the wrong way, myself included... I'm about 20w down on my figure i think.

I am really enjoying the series. I don't really worry about the handicaps, just try to do my best possible in each race.

Flat races are always going to be difficult to predict handicaps and you are always going to end up with bigger groups of mixed ability with the stronger riders doing more work on the front.

Thanks for all the work Robbo.

I get crucified by the handicap system every week, my watts show I’m working harder than anyone, manage to finish in the top 5/6 on the road and then get dropped 20 places by the handicap – and I still think the results are fair!

Val - I think you’ve got this wrong on so many levels It’s difficult to know where to start.

First thing to say is this was never an ‘experiment’ in trying to create a perfect racing format - far from it. This all started with Weeksy’s meetups and was simply a bunch of folk having fun riding together in lockdown, and this led to in various other rides such as the virtual commutes and the TTT – all with the same aim – ‘let’s get some exercise and let’s have fun!’ When the idea of creating a STW race was first muted it was with exactly the same objective and you only have to read the comments in this thread to see that this has been a spectacular success.

I hope that what people are really enjoying comes from the participation, the fun of pushing themselves, finding other riders to battle with and their personal achievements – this should never be about the results table other than how it reflects your own progress.

Coming back to the fairness of the results, riders with less experience on Zwift will always have less realistic FTP numbers – but not because they are in any way cheating.

Since I started training on Zwift I’ve done nearly 150 races (Weeksy’s done over 350!). Over the course of these races my strength and fitness has improved, but more importantly I’ve learnt how to push myself deep and get the maximum performance I’m capable of, and my FTP reflects that. I have very little scope for over achievement, and in fact anything less than my absolute best will see me underperform relative to my FTP – and at 64 that’s getting ever harder!

Riders new to Zwift racing or with just a ramp test to establish their FTP are likely to have real potential to improve - not only their fitness, but by learning to dig deep, hang on to a wheel when they feel like puking and delivering a result beyond their expectations. That’s a great thing isn’t it?

Thanks again Robbo for all you’re efforts – truly appreciated.

I was keeping up with @oop north and we could gap @mrhoppy by a minute or two on 25 min climbs. Now mrhoppy has worked really hard upped his game and is getting up the climbs faster than me.

Thanks but that's maybe an exaggeration of my climbing abilities both then and now other than on a really good day. 😀

That said between Sunday Hills, Weeksys Tuesday rides earlier in the year and TTT there are a reasonable bunch of us that know how we relate to each other in terms of abilities and I'm not really seeing anything that arouses that much suspicion. The guys I'd expect to be fast are fast, the people I'd expect to be riding with are largely the people I'd expect to be with (or at least I can see where and why we split) and the people I'd expect to be infront of I'm infront of. And this is largely reflected in the handicaps too. Like anything new there are some difficulties in setting the handicaps but looking at the ranges on each of the races Robbo has done a pretty awesome job, the weighted results are all within not that much. I'm really not sure where the view that there is converted sandbagging going on comes from.

I have some sympathy with the very strongest guys as it's much easier for the midpack to wheelsuck them and get a tow far enough that it's hard for them to get enough of a lead to get the handicap to fall in their favour. But to an extent that's the tactics of this type of racing, can they make life hard enough early enough to spit the lesser mortals out and still have enough in the tank or do they bide their time and wait for a key point in the race later on for a more definitive move. Me I'm more can I hold this group no matter what, race 1 I was fortunate enough to get into a slightly above my pay grade group where I was hanging on and not able to contribute much but I knew I'd come good on handicap in the end, this week I was in a more "comfortable" group and knew I'd need to try and get away to be clear so was trying to put pressure on when I could.

The fact you are allowing road bikes and all starting together is bound to affect the race. Time trial bikes only would take blob drafting out of the equation and give the time handicaps a much better chance of levelling the field.

underperform relative to my FTP – and at 64 that’s getting ever harder!

Well that's just depressing - I didn't realise you were 64 Phil! You must have been pro-level in your younger years!

The fact you are allowing road bikes and all starting together is bound to affect the race. Time trial bikes only would take blob drafting out of the equation and give the time handicaps a much better chance of levelling the field.

But there's no fun in that... that's just riding on your own against the clock... the fun is racing 'with' your mates on here.

I didn’t realise you were 64 Phil! You must have been pro-level in your younger years!

Nothing could be further from the truth! I have no history of cycling and only took up mountain biking in my fifties to try and loose weight - after I was forced to stop playing rugby and squash due to various injuries my weight ballooned to over 16 stone! A mate suggested I borrow his spare bike and go for a ride off-road as it's easier on the joints!

Looks like someone is underplaying their stats after all, putting lower numbers in. Your username is clearly Phil56 and it should be Phil64. Cheat!

Well you're either gentically impressive or damn determined fella... i've been cycling for ages and am nowhere near you ! nice one.

I didn’t realise you were 64 Phil! You must have been pro-level in your younger years!

If there's one thing cycling events have taught me over the years it's that old(er) folks on bikes are always quicker than me. The speed difference is directly proportional to the how much older than me their bike is.

But there’s no fun in that… that’s just riding on your own against the clock… the fun is racing ‘with’ your mates on here.

And it takes any tactics out really, it just becomes how well can you put your power down. It'd mean handicaps would have to be crazy accurate. It'd be interesting to have one in there in future maybe but not the whole lot.

My results suggest I'm not a bad ITTer in Zwift but I much prefer the tactical element of group racing despite generally doing worse

Got the invite, will try my best to be there as I had a good laugh. Its a learning exercise for me, I didnt really grasp how the handicap worked until afterward (and I still dont really understand how someone in a low category gets a bigger time penalty?!) but I'm not that fussed, enjoyed trying to ride in a group.

I've only ever previously used Zwift for the training programes where

a) you ride solo
b) you are in full 'fixed power output' mode so no gear changing or riding the terrain - the software just holds you at X watts for Y seconds.

I found riding in full control was much more difficult, hence the difficulty in drafting and mathcing speed.

The messager functon in the companion app on your phone is a much easier way to type rather than using the ipad/computer reaching out in front of you on your table.

I absolutely agree that in Robbos winter series there should be a TT on a desert flat course, just for interest. How viable that'll be to do with the way the system starts us off etc i dunno, but would be good. But it's deffo not the way forward for the series if you ask me.

How viable that’ll be to do with the way the system starts us off etc i dunno

Assuming all on TT bikes it would likely* be easier from that point of view.

Yeah, you all just go when it gets to 0.

Thanks to everyone who's put in.

The fundraiser for Cardiac Risk in the Young is over the 200 quid mark as of this morning.

A clap on the back to everyone and a hip hip for Robbo

I've blasted through all those long posts, but don't agree with the handicap post from laughgov...

It's not the same people coming high up...look at my results for a start.
1st race - meh, but better than I was expecting
2nd race - 4th (if memory serves me right) after the handicap. Woop!
3rd race - getting a bit of a feel for my position in the group and the result was around where I expected.

To be honest, I couldn't really care if I was ending up last - I just find it a good laugh and a fantasy workout. I don't think mentally I would be able to work as hard as I do during the races if I was riding on my own or out on the road.
After the Innsbruck race I was a quivering mess for about 90mins afterwards....

Your username is clearly Phil56 and it should be Phil64. Cheat!

It's true that my username is connected to my age - I joined the forum when I was 56 and I was born in 1956 - that's where it came from!

Val, I hope you decide not to quit because I enjoy racing you, and at number 10 overall you are doing well.

just can’t understand how this is leveling the playing field it seems to be just rewarded dubious low quoted numbers weight and ftp numbers,

I don't see what the problem is - you are lighter than most at 70kg, you are a fast rider who can ride above FTP for an extended period and you are doing well in the points in 10th place.

A perfect handicap system would mean we all ended up with identical results which would be boring. Robbo's system is pretty good although not perfect - and you are doing well in it. I think it is the 300W+ powerful riders who should feel hard done by because people like you and I benefit by wheelsucking them on the flats.

It's worth looking at some facts here and as I am a couple of positions above you at the moment, let's compare our performances. My FTP is 270W and weight is 72kg, so IRL you are a slightly better rider than me at 293W and 70kg, and so Robbo's handicap for you is slightly bigger. Obviously I am not "weight doping" compared to you, and in fact giving Robbo a low weight would give me a bigger handicap anyway. But am I under-declaring my FTP?

Race 3 was flat so we finished within 1 second of each other, both wheelsucking the faster boys. My W/kg is a bit lower than yours but I could dig in above FTP for the short climb because the rest of the circuit I could take it a little easy hiding in the pack. For the race overall I averaged 268W - just below my FTP. You suffered in the points compared to me because us being in the fast pack together meant you couldn't get away from me to make up for your extra handicap, so you got less points.

Race 2 had a big climb, so we were quickly strung out up the mountain by W/kg rather than being in the pack. I averaged my FTP doing 3.7 W/kg up the climb, but your 311W 4.4W/kg was a great performance vs your 293W FTP (suspiciously good? 😉 ) so with your lower weight you were 3:10 faster. Even after the handicaps your great climb put you ahead of me in the points.

Race 1 was similar to race 3, we both managed to cling onto a pack of fast boys and ride as hard as possible to hang on in there. In a 35min race I averaged a whisker above my FTP at 272W.

You can see that I am riding at my declared FTP, I have just over your kg and we are ranked within two places in the league - that sounds as fair as these things can be. So Val I do hope you'll change your mind and keep racing.

Thanks Robbo for organising and doing all the hard work. Having organised a similar series (although TT) for my club during lockdown and I appreciate it takes a fair amount of time - so thanks again.

Personally, the results are almost irrelevant; it's a bit of fun and provides some motivation for putting in a decent session. If it makes any difference, I normally finish mid-pack and towards the back on the handicap. Only acts to motivate me more to put in a good ride!

Long may the fun continue!

I agree with @phil56 (if only there were some clue about his age in his username!).

Val - it's a shame you feel like that. Noone can force you to enjoy it though. I do think you've misread the situation. From 76 participants (?) there are only two riders who have beaten you in all three races, so accusations of cheating based on consistency are a bit surprising. And you are in the top 10 in the overall classification at this point, so you are setting a pretty embarrassing threshold for moaning about being beaten (esp in a handicap race). The handicap system has succeeded in creating races which depend on the chaos of mixed ability groups riding with different objectives. You were a pretty significant part of that dynamic on Tuesday (the only time I've managed to keep up with you, so my only example). I had assumed you would be in future too.

Ermigaad I just realised I put 5 points on the board on Tuesday.

So not only did I achieve my aim of not being swallowed by the chase group but I also achieved my goal of breaking my duck!

Get in!

I saw the post last night, starting typing then thought "Nah!"

I guess my default response is this, I do it for fun, for a laugh with the banter, I don't take it seriously at all cos I know I'm never going to be anywhere near that leader board. Some races will suit me, some will not. I just try my best.

For sure without Weeksy starting all this off on STW and other people getting involved with the different events and meetup's we all have then I wouldn't enjoy Zwift the way I do now, I'd be riding round on my own, Billy no mates. You lot have inspired me, entertained me and made me work harder to improve my zwift riding, it's been a god send in lockdown.

Sad that it becomes so serious to some, it's not meant to be a pro race, I commend Robbo for what he has created, I wouldn't have the time to get involved with all the handicaps etc.

Just enjoy it for what it is!

I might have to do another ramp test, or find out what I'm doing wrong. I struggle on the flat. On paper I should be fine but I just can't maintain the power like I can on a big climb. I'm not spinning out but the fatigue is huge. Its almost as if my legs need the high resistance.

The races themselves are great motivation to really push yourself, but the results themselves are fairly meaningless. With all respect to robbo, the handicaps will always benefit some riders over others due to the draft affect. Basically the weakest rider in the group gets the most points. That's why, whilst on paper the weakest 'a' rider, I am the leading 'a' when it comes to the handicap standings. I just sit in draft and get towed round and get same time. It's pretty obvious really, so no idea why someone would think its down to cheating.

Ultimately it's just a little fun..it's blindingly obvious who the strongest rider competing is (c revell)

I think the series is great however only feedback would be maybe mix things up a bit next time..ie a tt would favour some of the better riders as it would take the element of draft out, however i agree it should only be a 1 off and not form basis of any series.

that’s why, whilst on paper the weakest ‘a’ rider, I am the leading ‘a’ when it comes to the handicap standings. I just sit in draft and get towed round and get same time. It’s pretty obvious really, so no idea why someone would think its down to cheating.

Ultimately it’s just a little fun..it’s blindingly obvious who the strongest rider competing is (c revell)

I think the series is great however only feedback would be maybe mix things up a bit next time..ie a tt would favour some of the better riders as it would take the element of draft out, however i agree it should only be a 1 off and not form basis of any series.

ALSO maybe there should be an award for the fastest overall rider... like a GC... got to be some recognition for that I think!! Tot up the cumulative time for everyone who's finished EVERY race (which actually wouldn't be c revell cos I don't think he's raced every time so far?)

On paper I should be fine but I just can’t maintain the power like I can on a big climb. I’m not spinning out but the fatigue is huge. Its almost as if my legs need the high resistance.

Is that not pretty normal? No way i could put out my ftp on the flat as easy as on a climb.

Is that not pretty normal?

I think its very much down to the rider, there are plenty of folks you can see in races who hammer along to the base of a climb at w/kg that makes me queasy to read only to drop down to way under my steady output as soon as the road kicks up.

Right, here's a potentially contentious question then.

What if a rider feels their FTP/figures are overly high ? I'm not in the place i was at the time of putting in my FTP figure, with the broken hand and still a dadgy/bruised calf muscle, i'm properly struggling in races at the moment, peaking way down on where i should be.

Now, i'm not saying i want to drop figures in this series as it's not far from over... But say if we did a winter series, are we OK with people doing an FTP test/Ramp test to get a lower figure ? All we can do of course is trust people are putting in 100%.

Looking at my race profile i'm closer to 260-270w than the 290w i was 3 months ago

https://www.zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=164586

Is that not pretty normal?

No, it depends on the rider. Whilst flat races favour my build which affects things I find it far harder to ride close to or above my FTP for extended efforts on hills than on the flat. From his posts I'd guess Weeksy is in a similar boat to me. It's been apparent on Sunday Hills where I can pull with the group on the flat well but get spat out the back hard on climbs if I'm not right on it.

I climb at a far lower cadence than I ride on the flat but it's the only way I can get the power down, it means big climbs hurt a lot but on shorter rises I can usually hang in but push relatively big numbers for me (makes the TTT hard though).

Yup, at my peak i can flat for 30 mins at 290w...i can't climb at 290w for that length of time, trust me, i've tried.