And I didnt mention the bath. You have sneakily nested both quotes. Bit cheap really.

Calf has two joints – the knee and the ankle..

Your talking crap now!

nonk – wtf you talking about? Stretching in the bath is good. I do it too.

There is no real consensus on when to stretch – only if it works keep doing it and if it doesn't then you need to change it.

PNF stretching has its origins in the 40s and 50s. I think our knowledge sports science and research has developed significantly. Gordon Pirie was one of the first runners to oppose pre-exercise stretching and link it to injury in top-flight athletes. He believed stretching introduces unnecessary hyper-mobility to joints. Instead he advocates a good warm-up routine. Evidence is appearing to suggest static stretching introduces a loss in power during exercise.

Dynamic stretching – yes. But personally, I steer clear of static stretching pre-exercise.

Surfer – it works over two joints, well gastrocnemius does anyway. You were commenting on stretching in the bath…

You do know that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing dont you..

There are four stages of learning:

1 – Not knowing what you dont know,
2 – knowing what you dont know,
3 – knowing your subject but having to think about it to get things right,
4 – knowing the subject and not needing to think to get it right.

You appear to be at level 1 – the most dangerous.

And as for where you start slevering about doing stuff in the bath thats just gibberish – the physio next to me says so.

that bit there goan anyways no matter cant be arsed anymore.

nonk – you have completely misread my post.

You seem unable to contradict using evidence.

I didnt mention the bath I was asked if stretching once muscles were warm was sufficient to mimick a "warm up" You seem to have latched onto this bath thing, try to stay on message, after all you have a helper!

We were talking about muscles and you are now talking about joints!

HTTP404 hit the nail on the head and Gordon Pirie knew a bit about top flight performance. (he won the National XC by a mile at the park just down the road from me interestingly enough, to me anyway!)

ah well apology should see me right then. 😉

Surfer – I am unable to contradict using evidence because what you have written doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

You do know what muscles are for dont you? If you knew this you would know why i am talking about joints….

You do know what muscles are for dont you? If you knew this you would know why i am talking about joints….

I understand exactly the relationship. However if the muscle is damaged then the joint is almost meaningless in its rehabilitation.

Why is post run stretching "crap"

So if we shouldn't stretch before exercise, when should we? during? after? both? neither?

My advice is:

Warm up slowly. Stretch post run.

edit: run till your eye balls pop in the middle!

tomzo – the answer is "it depends"

If you really want to know about stretching have a read through this bit of light bed time reading. http://people.bath.ac.uk/masrjb/Stretch/stretching_1.html

If you'll excuse me I have to go and get another beer then go off to physio school tomorrow…

physio school tomorrow…

Junior school?

After all that and with help, you still cant offer an opinion?

No – The UKs premier university for Physiotherapy. 6th in the world apparently too.

I've given my opinion several times. Its basic engineering – if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Physio isnt voodoo.

Even your own text states:

Unfortunately, even those who stretch do not always stretch properly and hence do not reap some or all of these benefits. Some of the most common mistakes made when stretching are:

* improper warm-up

Night night!

I feel sorry for you. I couldn't cope with being that thick. How do you type when you cant read?

I feel sorry for you. I couldn't cope with being that thick. How do you type when you cant read?

More insults. Bit lame really for someone who professes to be an authority on a subject.

You have summarily refused to take my point on board so I am using the evidence that is presented to me – just like you asked…

I have missed your point as it has been shrouded in insults.

My point is summarised a couple of posts up.

What is yours?
How does it conflict with mine?
Why is post run stretching "crap advice"?

goan your on proper c*nt form tonight old bean.

Wibble-fest.

I stopped stretching pre-exercise because I started noticing niggles developing that I don't get if I just take it easy for the first ten minutes.

I stretch after training when I'm warm, or gently in the evening. Pretty standard stuff with and emphasis on relaxation and breathing. I find if I force stretching it messes with my posture, concentrate on posture ahead of how far you can stretch.

If you do too much on a specific muscle group you'll get imbalances, try and keep it well-rounded.

So if we shouldn't stretch before exercise, when should we? during? after? both? neither?

If you're going to do it. Do dynamic stretching. And do it post exercise.
(I now do no stretching whatsoever – have an intense exercise routine and remain injury free)

And your warm-up should reflect the full range of motion of the exercise – but nothing more. It's pointless to hyper-extend the movement.

if it ain't broke don't fix it.

But then again why wait until it's broke? Once injured it can be extremely difficult to shake off.

If you're going to do it. Do dynamic stretching. And do it post exercise.
(I now do no stretching whatsoever – have an intense exercise routine and remain injury free)

Interesting point. I do some calf, Achilles stretching but mainly because I have had injuries in these areas in the past. not sure it benefits me.
I do more recently have problems around my hips and lower back which I think are eased by stretching but cant be sure.

Phisio i use tells me to stretch plenty before and after i run. Strangely enough it seems to work. To be honest he has treated 3 different injuries over the past couple of years and all are now ok. (Knee calf and shins)

In the past i have been a little lazy about stretching/warming up properly but the cost of phisio's has cured me.

Not sure you will ever stay injury free if you run high mileage tho, depends how well you are put together to start with. Genetics.

surfer, try strengthening the muscle around the injury(s) rather than stretching it.
I stopped stretching altogether after a knee injury and just went for the strengthening exercises.

I've given my opinion several times. Its basic engineering – if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Exactly how long have you been a physio student?
You were an expert car driver now you're an authority in physiotherapy after only training for a matter of days/weeks, is there no end to your talents?

I run straight out of the door and run half the time (with others) along gravel and flat muddy singletrack, but when I go out on my own I run along the coastal path or along the slippiest filthiest trails I can find to keep me interested and grip is massively important, but I run for about 5-10 minutes per run on the road so a bit of give would be nice. When I'm at home I go out on the moors with them.

If your across from Kingdom Runners, I take it your in St Andrews? I run the coastal path quite a bit and can't think of any parts that would need anything more than trail shoes. Walsh PB's and the like would be a bit overkill IMO. Although your close to Largo Law, so get some PB's or some Swoops and get fell running 🙂 Much more fun than the coastal path!

I never stretch before or after running. Sorry. I haven't done anything for ohhh 4-5 years, something like that, and remain injury free, running about 30-40k a week.

Given Goan's attitude though, I wouldn't want his help

nickc – I'm happy enough with that. I'm happier that my advice that has been taken on board by people who have asked for it has worked though….

So – as I asked – exactly how long have you been training to be a physio?

FWIW – PNF absolutely rocks.

Uplink – how long have the others been training as physios?

I an at the end of the 1st semester of first year, but have been working part time as a physio assistant for around 6 years.

Uplink – how long have the others been training as physios?

I've never trained but – unlike you – I haven't offered any advice on the subject

don't you think that you should have made it clear that you were only a 1st year student?

Didn't say that you did – hence others and not you….

, but have been working part time as a physio assistant for around 6 years.

You mean you make cups of tea for your wife? 🙂

6 years as an assistant is a long time.
I've got a friend who works as a dental assistant but she's not going to be lecturing on root canal surgery anywhere soon.

1 term done and Goan is God

I lectured at honours degree level in biomechanics and exercise physiology and I didn't know everything

I never stretch, but if I did, I could do PNF without a partner or expensive equipment.

Do you actually know what PNF stands for Goan – without google?

Money for shoes, but no money for refunds for your 'mates' you screwed over eh?

I'm more concerned about how you can run for 5-10 minutes on tarmac in xc spikes. That would do my head in. Are you using them without the spikes? I can think of lots of more suitable shoes…