My Giant Defy wheels came loose after only about 150 miles. Got them properly retrued and looked over by the shop I bought it from at its first service the other day, and…

Well, they’re still flexy as anything!

Wheels are Mavic CXP22’s on Giant branded (Formula) hubs, with Sapim spokes and brass nipples. 28 spoke rear (3x drive, radial non) and 24 spoke (radial) front. Weights, astonishingly as I’ve just found out, are 850g front, and 1150g rear.

Now I’m not a big guy, 12.5 stone in my riding gear, and I’m not all that powerful either, but thinking I’m really gonna have to upgrade these ASAP. Is it the low spoke count that’s the issue, the fact they were probably machine built (though have now been finished by hand but are still flexy), or just crap components?

On the upgrade front, for a budget of not more than £150, what would you recommend? Love the idea of Open Pro’s on some nice hubs, but that’s really gonna break the bank. Been looking at Planet X Model B’s and C’s, Pro-Lie Luciano (if they’re in stock anywhere), Shimano RS20 and RS30, anything else worth a look? Mavic Aksium maybe?

Ideally I’d like to lose a bit of weight, maybe gain a bit of aero, but most importantly I want a stiff wheelset that’s going to last.

Oh, and tyres, the cheapo Kenda’s that came with it seem a bit heavy being wire beaded. They’re 25c which I like (don’t want to go to 23 really), but what’s a good 25c tyre, not too expensive, relatively light and hard wearing etc. These are 305g each, so imagine with new tyres and wheels, could probably save 1lb off the bike.

Do they feel awful when you’re riding? If not I’d simply hold onto them for now, stick some decent tyres on for summer and save up for some nicer wheels in the medium terms. I like Conti GP4000S, brilliant grip, speed, life ime, but not really cheap.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Continental-GP4000S-Folding-Tyre/CONTTYRF321

Those tyres are great (what I’m using at the moment). 25c is for touring, get the 23cs.

Planet x model Bs or the pro lites are the best options at that budget. You won’t really get a decent brand and a decent wheelset until you’re looking >£350 really.

There are plenty of good factory wheels for much less than £350, Fulcrum 7’s for £115 or 5’s for £190 at Merlin. Not too keen on the Planet X wheels, have used several sets, and all had issues with the aluminium freehub, and cassettes gouging it.

For tires, plenty of choice, Planet X normally have good ones cheap, 23c is fine, and has much more choice than 25c

I meant that would give him noticeable advantages over his existing wheelset, sorry.

Do they feel awful when you’re riding?

Erm, define awful… I can notice them flex quite a bit, and that’s since they’ve been retrued and tensioned. Might crank another 1/2 turn into the nipples myself on the rear at least maybe.

The thing is, the bike’s not really worthy of saving up for nicer wheels. It cost me £700 new, I’m happy to bung another £100 (plus whatever I can get for the OEM wheels on ebay) into it on some new wheels, but no point in even trying to justify some expensive wheels. I am a mountain biker, the road bike is merely an afterthought, though has to be said I quite enjoy it now though won’t be taking it seriously. Would just like some stiffer bloody wheels please!

Not too keen on the Planet X wheels, have used several sets, and all had issues with the aluminium freehub, and cassettes gouging it.

Ultegra or better spidered cassette then is it if going Planet X route? I’ve had a look at some Fulcrum 7’s on a mates bike and… Well they look nice, but that’s a very loud, Hope-esque freehub… And I hate loud freehubs! Really would rather stay with 25’s too, tend to be a bit clumsy and a bit of a sitdown rider, and any extra cushioning is appreciated.

The OP really need to get the original wheel sorted as a warranty issue upgrading after a couple of rides is a bit pointless; and suggests that the wrong bike was bought in the first place.

Changing the tires does sound like a reasonable idea, but cheap Kenda’s aren’t too bad, have done several thousand K on them, and they will let you know when they are on their way out by flating a lot.

I’d vote for Mavic Aksium. Been running them since March (1000ish miles)and not touched them in terms of maintenance, these were second hand as well.

Not the lightest, but strong and reliable!

http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/Wheels/Road+Wheels/Factory+Road+Wheels/Mavic+Aksium+Wheels+-+Pair+2011_1325.htm

I’d do for silver though 🙂

The OP really need to get the original wheel sorted as a warranty issue upgrading after a couple of rides is a bit pointless; and suggests that the wrong bike was bought in the first place.

They’ve fixed them to be fair, there’s nothing wrong with them per se, they did come loose and they fixed them under warranty as part of the first service, but I can just feel them flex quite a bit still!

Wrong bike wasn’t bought, I’m very happy with the rest of it for the price I paid. To have got something significantly better would have cost a whole heap more money, and I read the reviews online before I bought it, and in each case they said great bike but you will want to upgrade the wheels soon as they’re quite heavy and flexy.

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-giant-defy-2-10-35307

by the sounds of it and what you’re looking for, you would have to up the spoke count to get the stiffness … and/or go for a heavier duty rim ( deeper profile ) which can be done of course without too much fuss.

Do you have any experience of road wheels which are stiff?

If you’re comparing them to a set of 36h mtb wheels, then you’re always going to find that the bulk of road wheels appear flexy. Its the nature of the beast unless you’re spending £££.

there is a school of thought that if you have some flex, it allows the spokes to give, thereby transferring their load across to the next spokes over. You can have too much tension in a spoke.

I’d look at the tyre aspect first and see if that makes an improvement.

Tyre wise i’ve just put some Schwalbe Ultremo 23c’s on. They are 180g and very quick! £24 per tyre on wiggle now. You can also get them in 25c flavour as well.

Wrong bike wasn’t bought, I’m very happy with the rest of it for the price I paid. To have got something significantly better would have cost a whole heap more money, and I read the reviews online before I bought it, and in each case they said great bike but you will want to upgrade the wheels soon as they’re quite heavy and flexy.

If the bike cost £700, and you intend to drop another couple of hundred on a new wheelset as soon as you have bought it, you may as well get a better bike in the first place, the £999 price mark is a sweet spot for road bikes due to the Cycle to Work scheme, and there are some really good deals there, which would not need the additional expence of new wheels.

The kit you’ve got ought to be fine if it’s well built, but more spokes won’t hurt – they’ll give a better build and allow lighter rims.

I would avoid Shimano RS wheels like the plague. The RS10s that came on my bike started breaking spokes after a few hundred miles. Spares are expensive (£4 a spoke, £2 a nipple) and hard to find. The wheels are not durable and not light.

Having looked at the other factory options in that price range I didn’t find much to get excited about, and most are still built with obscure and expensive proprietary components. If you want “factory” wheels I’d look at the Halo wheelsets. Well regarded hubs, readily available and normal-priced spokes, and light rims given their depth.

FWIW the wheels I just built to replace the RS10s are 105 hubs (£40 a pair from Ribble), Ambrosio Excellight rims (£90 a pair from Planet X) and a mix of DT Revolution and DT Competition (rear D/S) spokes (~£70 from Starbike); lacing pattern as per your existing ones. They’re about 240g lighter than the RS10s at around 1800g (and most of the saving will be at the rim) and came in under £200. I’ve put a pair of Conti GP4000S on them but if you want a decent cheap tyre, the Vittoria Zaffiros I had on before those were perfectly good (I’ve moved them to another bike) – IIRC you can get them for about £6 each from Ribble.

you may as well get a better bike in the first place, the £999 price mark is a sweet spot

Leaving aside the point that it’s obviously a bit late for the OP to buy a different bike, my road bike was £999 and had Shimano RS10s, which are turds.

Do you have any experience of road wheels which are stiff?

Bought a 2nd hand road bike years ago, whilst at uni, thinking I’d get into it (I didn’t) with some original Rolf Vector Pro’s on.

JESUS they were stiff! Spoke tension was ridiculous though. Sold em to a mate who raced, found some cheap Dura-Ace hubs on ebay and built em on Open Pro’s (32 spokes) back when stuff was cheap, for about £150, before selling the bike a few months later through lack of use. Now couldn’t build Open Pro’s on Tiagra hubs for that even! They were nice wheels, stiff enough, but forgiving too, but obviously no aero effect.

there is a school of thought that if you have some flex, it allows the spokes to give, thereby transferring their load across to the next spokes over. You can have too much tension in a spoke.

Already aware of this to be fair, I just wouldn’t have expected that just cos the rear is only 28 hole, it would be significantly more flexy than a 32 hole of similar build. Perhaps it might be that the non drive side is radially laced? Would it be worth new spokes, and re-lace the non drive side 3x as well do you reckon?

I would avoid Shimano RS wheels like the plague. The RS10s that came on my bike started breaking spokes after a few hundred miles. Spares are expensive (£4 a spoke, £2 a nipple) and hard to find. The wheels are not durable and not light.

They’re about 240g lighter than the RS10s at around 1800g (and most of the saving will be at the rim) and came in under £200.

I’ve done 2000 miles on a pair of rs10s recently. Put the rear out of true on a big crash in the first few hundred miles, and trued it up. It gave me no trouble. Towards the end the front hub felt a bit rough (although it was spinning fine), so I took it apart and regreased it, was fine after. I also don’t think they’re over 2kg, but I’ve got them downstairs, might weigh them and find out. I was pretty sure they’re around 1800g. I found them to be a very reliable wheelset, I’m keeping them for a winter build.

Model bs are ace. I love them they spin forever and mine have been brilliant on lincolnshires shocking roads. My defy wheels were garbage as were my mates. Best thingn i did was get rid.

If the bike cost £700, and you intend to drop another couple of hundred on a new wheelset as soon as you have bought it, you may as well get a better bike in the first place, the £999 price mark is a sweet spot for road bikes due to the Cycle to Work scheme, and there are some really good deals there, which would not need the additional expence of new wheels.

Erm, not quite. Sold an MTb to pay for the road bike, bit of an experiment to see if I’d get into it. Didn’t want to drop big money on one, looked at spending a bit more in the first place (ie. £1k) but found that there was nothing even at the £1k mark that fitted the bill. You’d either got race reps like the Boardman Carbon (didn’t want a short head tube, minimal clearances and no room for mudguards), or bikes like mine but not any better specced really. Should add mine was originally £825, but I got it in the sale, and it’s a 2010 bike, and all the new 2011 bikes were bloody awfully specced for the money in comparison at the same price! So for £700 I don’t think I did too badly.

FWIW the wheels I just built to replace the RS10s are 105 hubs (£40 a pair from Ribble)

Cheers Bez, hadn’t noticed that… Hmmmm… Bit weighty, but suppose it’s only at the hub where it doesn’t matter. Appealing at the price though.

“I also don’t think they’re over 2kg, but I’ve got them downstairs, might weigh them and find out.“

Ah – I omitted a detail. My weights include the QRs in both cases. Normal quoted weights exclude them.

I think mine did maybe 500 miles before going ping. They’d been faultless until then, but that’s barely a month’s worth of riding for some people. I just couldn’t face the hassle of finding spares again.

Hubs wise I don’t have a problem with them – Shimano hubs are excellent and go forever. It’s the spokes and lacing and the non-standard parts which are the problems on these.

To be fair my RS20’s have been awesome and are still smooth & true after 1500+ miles.

Great wheels for the money

“Bit weighty, but suppose it’s only at the hub where it doesn’t matter. Appealing at the price though. “

Quite. Plus they’ll go forever, freehubs are cheap, and they’re explicitly sold as radial-compatible.

Compared to my build, if you went for silver Comps and something like Halo Aerorages or Open Sports or some Rigida rims (see Spa Cycles’ site for Rigida stuff), you’d get down to about £130 on those 105s, albeit gaining something like 70g per rim. Not enough to notice, really.

Hmmmn.

Just replaced a pair of worn out Mavic Open 4CD’s on (15 year old) 105 hubs.

Couldn’t afford or justify another set of handbuilts (bike is a 1996 Trek 1400, worth about £200) so ended up with a pair of Shimano RS30’s from Merlin for £140.00

They are the first ‘factory’ wheels I’ve ever used – weigh about the same as the ones they’ve replaced, but feel much faster on the bike – no idea why!

I’m hoping that they’ll be durable – other people who I’ve spoken to have used Shimano wheels for several thousand miles each without major problems, so fingers crossed.

Only thing I don’t like is that they look bloody awful on an older frame.
Can’t have everything & needs must when the devil vomits in your kettle, as my old granny never used to say.

If the bike cost £700, and you intend to drop another couple of hundred on a new wheelset as soon as you have bought it, you may as well get a better bike in the first place

Wouldn’t agree with this, it’s pretty much what I’ve done, and was the plan all along.

Compared to my build, if you went for silver Comps and something like Halo Aerorages or Open Sports or some Rigida rims (see Spa Cycles’ site for Rigida stuff), you’d get down to about £130 on those 105s, albeit gaining something like 70g per rim. Not enough to notice, really.

Was thinking just Open Pro’s (about £40 a pop), and think Echelon Cycles (not far from me) were 50p per Sapim Race last time I had to buy any spokes, so might be possible to get that lot in under £150…

I’m also looking at wheels around the £150 mark and have it down to Fulcrum Racing 5’s which just seem to have come back in stock at Ribble for £152 (if you can bear using Ribble that is), or Mavic Aksiums at £140 from Merlin. Both sub 1800 grams. Will probably go for Conti GP4000s at £25 a pop, bringing the whole lot in at £200. On paper this would save about 650 grams off my current set of Miche Excites and £10 Vittorias, which I’m guessing will be fairly noticeable!

I upgraded by existing ‘generic cheapy wheels’ with a bargain set of Shimano RS30’s from Merlin. I think they are pretty good, they feel faster, the bike is lighter and after 6 months of commuting in all kinds of crap weather they haven’t put a foot wrong.

I got some mavic ksyrium’s off ebay for £170! Pretty nice as well.

Go Aksiums on a budget.

Planet X model B – Cheaper and lighter than anything else for the price.

I was in the same situation as you MBoy, I ended up with Model B’s (black came back into stock yesterday, got mine 11am this morning). I’m not really a roadie so don’t have a great deal to compare it to but they seem light and spin ok. Haven’t had a chance to ride in anger so can’t comment on the flexyness as yet but reading reviews it seems a possibility.
The cheapest I could find for hand built wheels was either Merlin or Rose bikes (not actually sure Rose hand build thiers though). I nearly got thesebut opted for the Model B’s instead. As for tyres cheapest GP4000s were from Shiny bikes at £25 each or Schwalbe Ultremo’s from Planet X for about the same.

Another vote for model b’s, particularly if you’re happy with a spoke key, as it sounds like you are. They’re fine as they arrive, but the rear of mine benefited from an additional turn on each nipple – they are now stiff and feel fast, whereas they creaked a bit from the spokes moving from new.

I also have RS10 wheels which came with the bike. Bar one broken spoke (sounded like the carbon frame had snapped!) they’ve been fine. They are very stiff! But then, at just over 2kg without skewers (actual weight), there should be enough metal in there for them to so.

They are very stiff! But then, at just over 2kg without skewers (actual weight), there should be enough metal in there for them to so.

Have I got the same RS10s as everyone else?? I’m sure mine are around the 1800g mark, and I didn’t find them particularly stiff at all, kinda flexy actually. And I’m not exactly putting out much force.

Great thread, I have a Defy 2.5 which I use for Time Trials, defo going to upgrade the wheelset based on the OP weight information, no wonder I am so slow.

Another vote for model Bs here as well.

my rs-10’s are 2009 model – don’t know if they’ve changed much??

If you’re looking at handbuilt but price of Mavic Open Pro rims are off putting then check out the Mavic Open Sport. They’d knock a fairly hefty amount off and maybe stiffer things up a bit (touch wider than Open Pros).

Haven’t noticed much flex on the RS10s. They’re good wheels when they’re in one piece.

I used to have some Gipiemme wheels where I could drag the mech cage into the spokes when climbing out of the saddle.

Another vote for model b’s, particularly if you’re happy with a spoke key, as it sounds like you are. They’re fine as they arrive, but the rear of mine benefited from an additional turn on each nipple – they are now stiff and feel fast, whereas they creaked a bit from the spokes moving from new.

Lots of recommendations for the Model B’s (now out of stock again mind!), but are they really stiff enough?

I was in the same situation as you MBoy, I ended up with Model B’s (black came back into stock yesterday, got mine 11am this morning).

Thanks for the tip – ordered a set myself.

There my race wheels, I’ve had some excellent results on them so yeah, I’d say they’re just fine 🙂

i have some campag scirocco’s on my roadie for sale, they’re the stiffest thing on this build i have just bought some early 90’s NOS wheels so these are available – email with pics sent.