As a measure that I can maybe relate to, how 'good' an allround cyclist is Cavendish?
Ok, so he supposedly 'can't climb' – but that's compared with the best cyclists in the world..

So, hypothetically speaking…

If a pretty decent MTB climber like Oli Beckingsale were to have a road race with Mark Cavendish over stage 20 of the Tour de France, who would cross the finish line first?

(Perhaps MBUK could run this as one of their special 'staged' race / PR-advertorial features?) 😉

We've seen already that Cav is only a sprinter and nothing else, he survived the mountains hence he's a tad more versatile than Cipollini or Kirsipuu. I think it's because he's much ligher than them.

Cav is only a sprinter and nothing else

Are you sure about that? Ever heard of Milan San Remo?

During the Tour of Britain stage over Exmoor the other year, some UK-based riders attacked Cavendish and the winner came from the break. He bad-mouthed them for lacking respect.

On the Ventoux, Beckinsale would be obliged to pace Cavendish up before allowing him to go through and take the win. Cavendish would then tell everyone, as Pantani did, that one does not gift the Ventoux. 😉

In his book he admits that his gob runs away with him – the ToB gobrunning was a particular one mentioned that he regretted.

Should I read his book aP? I do so want to like him. 🙂

Part of the commentary on yesterdays TT stage of the tour mentioned that Cav was a "fairly useless time trialler". He did a 54min for a 25 mile TT with a 4km long 3rd-cat climb in it.

Now bear in mind that a club TTer on a flat course is considered "good" if he can do a sub 1hr. Also remember that
a) he's been riding 100+ miles a day for the last 2 weeks and
b) it was effectively a rest day for Cav, he won't really have been trying since he had nothing to gain or lose and will be saving himself for Sunday's stage into Paris.

I know it doesn't really answer the original question but it does give some idea of just how fast these guys are.

Ever heard of Milan San Remo?

won mostly by sprinters brought to the finish by the teams.

I think Cavendish also showed quite a few people how badly he climbs when he led a group of UK based riders up 'the tumble' (which apparently is a reasonably testing climb in Wales afaik) in the national championships a couple of weeks before the tour.

I think there were only a couple of riders ahead of him (I think Wiggins was one of them) and most in his group were quite happy to take Cavendish's wheel. 😉

I was a bit dubious, but I thought he comes out quite well (certainly much better than lala comes out in any of his books IMHO). He admits that he's got faults – there's a long list on one page of quite what they all are.
Although it does get a bit "well I am the best sprinter in the world, my team thought I was a cock, but now they all love me, and will ride for me for ever" in places but if you roll your eyes and fast forward over those bits its quite a good insight into what he wants anyone else to know about him.

I'll give him a go, I've a train journey Saturday. 🙂

That should work – and the type is quite large as well 🙄

last year he did a program where he analysed his sprints

it was very good and an excellent insight into what what going on

the book, probably worth getting in paperback at Christmas

Ventoux? from the bottom probably Oly, after 150km Cav

what crazy legs said. Cavendish is a great all-round cyclist – just not when compared to the likes of Contador. He'd murder 99% of very good club cyclists on a climb.
I don't know much about Beckinsale (had to look up who he was) so I don't know, but Cav is a far better climber than most people would imagine..

I always imagine Cav doing a bit of a Gareth Cheesman in his room on a morning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEv3q-ViieQ

You're a tiger Grrrrrrr…

Should I read his book aP? I do so want to like him.
I heard him being interviewed and he stated he'd lost all respect for you because you haven't already.
He then said the book now has a stain on it.

won mostly by sprinters brought to the finish by the teams.

er, no not really. last climbs such the Poggio are well known for attacks ruining the sprinters day… some sprinters win, sure, but alot of tour riders, Fignon, Gianni Bugno i think won… Sean Kelly, a great classics rider rather than purely a sprinter…

That is a stupid question, smee ex aequo with mister gnar of course…

what crazy legs said. Cavendish is a great all-round cyclist – just not when compared to the likes of Contador. He'd murder 99% of very good club cyclists on a climb.

I bet pro climbers outsprint most club sprinters.
He's in a different league and in that league he's no climber but the best sprinter in the world at the moment.

Yes, his book's well worth a read. Certainly puts a more balanced view across without taking the easy option and excusing himself for his less good behaviour.

As big n daft said, if it was just up ventoux then Becks would batter him, if the whole stage then not so sure as Cav is obviously a pretty good all rounder, just can't live with the best in the world up the high mountains. Compared to good uk riders however I reckon he'd still climb pretty well as his power output is high reletive to his weight which usually determines how quickly you can get up a hill.

I don't understand how a good hill-climber (the other Schleck) can't do a time trial?

Surely being to pedal fast up a gert big hill is a similar physical output to pedalling on the flat as fast as you can.

Please explain.

And for what little I know, coming in 30 minutes behind the best climbers on a 180(?) kilometre stage with a load of big hills in isn't really that bad is it.

I don't understand how a good hill-climber (the other Schleck) can't do a time trial?

Surely being to pedal fast up a gert big hill is a similar physical output to pedalling on the flat as fast as you can.

Please explain.

it's a bit different. power/weight matters in mountains, flat out sustainable power matters more on TT, particularly an almost flat one like yesterday. And the Shreks work on accelerations on the hills rather than constant sustained power output (hence being able to drop Wiggo on gert big hill when they do go for it – but not being able to compete with him on the flat)

And for what little I know, coming in 30 minutes behind the best climbers on a 180(?) kilometre stage with a load of big hills in isn't really that bad is it.

it most certainly isn't! Cav is, what, 2.5 hours behind Contador? over nearly 3000km? that's pretty fooking close in the scheme of things.

Please explain.

Riding up hills is basically all about power to weight

Riding a time trial (assuming it's not too hilly) is mainly about power to drag and the ability to generate a lot of power for a relatively short time (eg 40 mins compared to a 6 hour stage)

The Schlecks generate a lot of power in relation to their weight but their actual sustainable power level must be relatively low overall so they're no good at TTing.

Plus the 30 mins isn't going to be really reflective – the guys finishing in the last group will be doing as little work as they can get away with without missing the time cut. The guys up front will be going flat out..

I think Cavendish also showed quite a few people how badly he climbs when he led a group of UK based riders up 'the tumble' (which apparently is a reasonably testing climb in Wales afaik) in the national championships a couple of weeks before the tour.

Backstory to this one…. Cav joined the second group on the road, and preceded to shout at everyone in the group to get to work. Most folk sat up, as if you take Cav to the line, he's going to outsprint you. ToB situation all over again, at least one rider in the group was majorly appalled by what was spouted in his direction.

As for Cav vs. Oli up Ventoux? Oli would just ride away. You don't get top 10s in World Cups by being a slow climber.

if it was just up ventoux then Becks would batter him

I doubt it very much. Oli is a fantastic all round rider and he'd thrash anyone off here up or down but being able to ride a Grand Tour is a totally different league. Most people can't understand or compute the power and speed of a pro peloton, even the lowliest domestiques on the Tour are unbelievabely good – follow that through to being the best sprinter in the world and you have some idea of just how good that is.

Besides Oli is (mostly) a mountain biker, Cav is a road/track star so a different comparison. 😉

it appears that people think cav (or any other sprint finish specialist) are poor allround cyclists. just bear in mind he is performing at the highest level in bike racing. a poor climber at that level, is likely to be a fantastic climber against slightly lesser opposition.
now, i am sure beckinsale is a great rider. but he'll never be racing cavendish over 20 stages of the tour because he's never going to be in a major professional road trade team. probably because he's not good enough.

A couple of other issues about TT performance of climbers also. Wiggins is a lot more aero than the Schlecks, and the different position also changes the phyisiology slightly – you have to train to get the power down in an aero position.

crazy-legs, keavo – We're not talking about racing the tour, *just* up Ventoux.

Oh, and back to Cav, remember that some very, very good riders (for instance those who've dominated in Britain) have struggled to even get round the TdF.

you have to train to get the power down in an aero position.

agreed, according to Brailsford, the adjustments in position suggested by mclaren to the BC team caused some quite major physiological changes to the team resulting in a LOT of physio work being necesary.

When armstrong enters mountain bike races he doesn't always win does he? so surely the fitness must be comparable?

Who cares. The wine from the Ventoux region is just smashing. Highly recommended!

Who cares. The wine from the Ventoux region is just smashing. Highly recommended!
word. Few things in life better than riding that mountain then settling in at a Cave to work your way through their produce. hic.

what i find disappointing is how Malcolm Elliot can still perform in races in the UK, says something about the quality of British Pros.

the origonal post says a road race over 20 stages. in that case i think beckinsale would have retired by now, if not then he wouldn't ride to his potential on the ventoux. in a tt up the ventoux with no racing beforehand then i would think beckinsale could beat cavendish, he would not be near the riders who excel at that.
if beckinsale had chosen i different path in his cycling at an early stage he may have made a tour rider. however, i doubt it based on the number of quality british riders who have failed to make it.

ok i read it wrong. "over stage 20" now i'm struggling:-)