A quick comment on a, er, comment I made in the Cairngorms thread:

I got a bit annoyed at some of the early comments on that thread where it was suggested that because walkers and climbers already erode/promote an area, it’s fine for bikers to ride/publish routes in an area. (Having now read more of the thread, Yunki, Druidh and Sanny all make this point.)

But two wrongs don’t make a right etc etc. Just because other groups use/erode an area doesn’t mean we can, or more importantly, should. If other groups don’t take responsibility for their actions, maybe riders (magazines?) should lead the way.

Access is a constant issue and often pops up in magazines. I’ve never seen an article on responsible access.

Now, I got all hot under the collar because I feel that a lot of bikers don’t spend much time thinking about the countryside or responsible access to it.

Look at the junk at trail centres, riders lobbing cans of red bull into bushes at 24hr races, jumps blocking bridleways, groups riding along particularly sensitive areas like Stanage, people riding trails like Winstone Lee Tor in the winter and eroding it badly (yes, walkers do it to, but there are a HELL of a lot of tyre tracks up there), the mess that’s become of Swinley – all things that I’ve personally seen.

Even on here there are threads where a few people seem to think it’s ok to ‘modify’ trails, to build them where they’ve been asked not to and dream of having access to land where they can build whereever and whatever they like without though for other users.

In other magazines there are high profile riders talking about riding in sensitive areas and ‘mates’ races through areas of land we ‘shouldn’t’ be.

Of course, there are loads and loads of riders taking exactly the opposite view, cleaning up, joining access groups and so forth. This is great, but they aren’t exactly helped by that very visible badly behaved minority who have a HUGE negative affect on the image of biking.

Perhaps mountain bikers as a group need to address these issues. Those climbers that were cited in the other thread are constantly thinking about their environmentally impact. So are surfers. (Deliberately not mentioning walkers here, but then walking is an activity anybody can do very easily, including those who are not usually ‘outdoors’ people.)

Maybe we should all pick up a bit of litter each ride. Perhaps stay away from soft peaty areas in really wet weather.

The Cairngorms thread is all about responsible access. But it’s just one thread on a forum. And I can’t help thinking that, with the image bikers already have, we need to do little more than this.

(Sorry, I’m sitting at home on my own, I’ve drunk too much tea and I’m in a whinging mood!)

Brown – Member

The Cairngorms thread is all about responsible access. But it’s just one thread on a forum. But it’s a bloody good one and I honestly don’t see the point of starting another to go over the same ground

Did you see what I did there??

Very good. It is a good thread, and I was going to post this there. It seemed like a bit of a different thought to me – more about mountain bikers attitudes towards the environment generally. Apologies if it isn’t.

We draw the short straw – public perception of us is very poor and it’s our duty to try and change this. Engage with other trail users, ie exchange pleasantries – it’s surprising what you can learn.

Of course, it does all come back to the fact that we do not have a credible body representing us.

I personally am getting bored of hearing the word ‘conservation’ thrown up at every possible opportunity. In my densely populated local area (South of England), the needs of local people are overlooked.

We need areas to walk dogs, take children with or without their little bikes – I don’t need to go on about the benefits of fresh air. But why fence off areas and introduce cattle and ponies for grazing? Irresponsible. And then tut tutting about the teenagers breaking down the fences cue animals escaping onto a road with a national speed limit.

This is great, but they aren’t exactly helped by that very visible badly behaved minority who have a HUGE negative affect on the image of biking.

have you any evidence that this is true, or that it matters ? I don’t think most people have any image of biking beyond “people that get in the way of my car”. And supposing they did, what could happen ? Wilderness SWAT teams ?

I suppose it was inevitable that you’d pop up Simon.

that’s hardly an attempt at an argument…

(to paraphrase)

We need to keep riding ‘natural’ trails. I for one certainly don’t want trail centres to be the only option available to us.

I agree about the litter, but I also noticed that on Ben Nevis there was plenty. As there is on any town high street. And don’t get me started on fast food outlets.

I’m going to carry on with what I believe constitutes responsible riding and accept that not everyone will agree. 🙄

I don’t think the argument being used on the other thread was so much that if walkers and climbers are causing erosion, then we should be allowed to as well… I took the argument to be more that if the environment is so sensitive that people riding bikes there is going to cause a massive environmental impact then surely walkers and climbers should not be there either.

As such, if it’s acceptable for walkers and climbers to be there, and also for there to be numerous guidebooks and routes published, then why is it not acceptable for bikes to be there? But that is just rehashing the argument from the other thread.

As for the littering thing… it’s not just bikers that are messy, walkers and climbers are just as much to blame. Go for a walk along Stanage after a busy weekend to see the amount of crap that gets left behind. Walkers are as bad, I’ve found all manner of stuff on the tops of hills. So it’s not something that’s exclusive to us.

tl;dr

tl;dr

translation ?

Usually the problem in cases like this is a lack of education, rather than people purposefully causing damage. Which brings me nicely to my question;

Are there any guides on responsible access?

Simply because I want to read one. This weekend I found myself staring at a field, full of cows… my OS said bridleway goes right through it so I should be able to ride it (I think). But I wasn’t certain that I wouldn’t tear up the field/p**s off the cows/get lost, so I left it.

So, any linkys to guides, or Mr Brown (OP), STW, fancy writing a guide?

For Scotland…

http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/

Funkynick – You’re right. That thread wasn’t about this. But it was just a comment made early in the thread, and an argument I’ve seen before that said this.

But the littering comment you made – that was kind of my point. What’s the use in pointing out that other people do it too? Our litter tends to be more obvious, and we’re always going to be blamed for it.

The other point – it isn’t necessarily acceptable for us to be somewhere just because other people are. Maybe noone should be. Maybe we should just accept that, stop being jealous and take a lead and promote avoiding an area. But you’re right, this is just re-hashing things. I should probably just have posted on that thread… (sorry)

Our litter tends to be more obvious

Please elaborate on how you believe this to be the case.

Please elaborate on how you believe this to be the case.

No one else tends to carry inner tubes…

I think I meant this thread to be about how some mountain bikers appear to have little respect for the environment. It’s probably pretty pointless really. Maybe it needs deleting.

public perception of us is very poor and it’s our duty to try and change this

Er, why?

Surely it’s the duty of the prejudiced to change their opinions, not that of those discriminated against to persuade others why they shouldn’t be?

I’m a mountain biker, I’m a young person in a hoody, and I’m not worse than someone else because of that; you shouldn’t be able to ban me from places because I don’t fit into your hillside/shopping centre.

I wasn’t really talking about those with irrational prejudice. But in reference to them, we could wait till the cows come home and they won’t change their opinions. So maybe we need to try to persuade them to do so.

What I was getting at was that we should perhaps try and remove rational reasons for any prejudice.

tl;dr

translation ?

Too Long; Dind’t Read.

i.e. I didn’t want to waste my time reading a post that at a glance I consider to be too long, however I want to waste mine and your time by stating this.

HTH

(Hope This Helps)

😉

Surely it’s the duty of the prejudiced to change their opinions, not that of those discriminated against to persuade others why they shouldn’t be?

Good point but that just ain’t gonna happen! Hence I do my bit when out and about, ride mainly on my own so perhaps other trail users feel ‘less threatened’?

I know where you’re coming from, and truthfully I normally ride by myself or with one or two other people, but really I’m not going to be deferent to anyone that thinks I shouldn’t be out on the hills. It seems like many people’s idea of ‘responsible access’ is keeping their heads down and trying not to offend anyone (not getting at you specifically CG.)

Is it worth keeping heads down a little on the one hand on order to pursuing greater access on the other?

But that’s not really what I mean – I think you’re missing the point slightly. I don’t think it’s about keeping heads down, it’s just about being responsible. Most bikers are, a very visible minority aren’t.

I’ve drunk too much tea

Crazy!

Seriously though it seems to me that bikers should have the same access tights as walkers in the mountains.

I can see the point that if walkers get to erode a lanscape then bikers should to in order that some level of fair control is exercised, but it seems ot me that the bikers’ point may be better made if they stay off the land and point out the damage done by walking.

I think your comments re. litter at trail centres and trails beign modified don’t apply to the vast majority of bikers doing old school mountain routes.

Is it worth keeping heads down a little on the one hand on order to pursuing greater access on the other?

I think so..

I’d never thought of riding in the wilds in scotland. I didn’t even notice the article in the magazine. But thanks to all these threads I’m well aware these routes exist now.

I think I might do one. Especially now I know walkers and climbers are such self-obsessed sanctimonious selfish gits.

No such thing is bad publicity eh?

Is it worth keeping heads down a little on the one hand on order to pursuing greater access on the other?

I don’t think so…
😳

it’s not walkers and climbers that are the opposition though is it..?

it’s conservation groups and scientists and wildlife foundations..

so getting in a mood with walkers and climbers or saying.. ‘they’ve got it so I want it too..’ as so many have suggested is the way forward in these threads.. is a bit err.. babyish perhaps..?

I’ve never seen any mountain bikers riding irresponsibly, I don’t see mountain bikers being slagged off in the media, I’ve never been shouted at for riding my bike somewhere I ‘shouldn’t’ (And I do that quite a lot, especially in the lakes). I’ve never seen an abandoned inner tube outside of a trail centre.

When I ride I regularly get people asking me where we’re going, where we’ve been and/or questions about the bike. Walkers usually seem to be genuinely impressed that we ride bikes in these places. I’ve come across the odd sour-puss that won’t even say hello, but nothing overtly negative.

Based on my personal experience going back to the late 90s, I don’t accept that mountain biking has a bad image at all, enlighten me?

Brown.. I was merely trying to say that the problem with littering is not a problem solely for the mountain bike community. It’s people who litter, and no doubt a biker who chucks their litter away would also do it if they were walking or climbing.

Also, while I have seen inner tubes discarded at trail centres and races, I can’t think I’ve ever seen one when out in the hills… lots of crisp packets and drinks cartons though.

I think that it’s general education that’s needed.

Is it worth keeping heads down a little on the one hand on order to pursuing greater access on the other?

So ultimately no-one should ride somewhere, to enable us to preserve the right to ride there?

the same access tights as walkers

Ron Hills you mean?

yunki… I’m certainly not getting in a mood with walkers or climbers, after all I am a walker and a climber too. Them pesky horse riders on the other hand… 😉

Your stance seems to be based on the following:

a) mountain bikers are by definition not capable of being as responsible as other user groups

b) mountain bikes in general cause more erosion than other user groups

Now, I don’t believe either of the above are true, but could you elaborate on why you think they are? Or if you agree with me on those two, what else are you basing your argument on?

On the litter issue I like the idea of picking up litter when I’m out and about but not as a mountain biker just because it irritates me whether it’s on a bridelway, footpath, by the side of the road, in town, etc – so maybe I should be proactive even though it’s not my litter. Certainly if I see any MTB/biking specific litter I’ll pick it up from now on (I’m not aware it’s a problem but maybe I’ve not been paying attention).

In England, where I normally ride, we only have access to a small percentage of paths (i.e. bridleways) anyway so I can understand why the OP sees more bike tracks than he was comfortable with on Peaty trails in this country. Having said that responsible riders will try to steer clear of these paths in wet weather and, as others have said, pursuading iresponsible riders to do the same is an uphill struggle. I know the original post was about Scotland where there is more access so I guess more restraint is needed.

In terms of other groups – they have the same responsibilities but this is a MTB forum so…

The litter problem got so bad on the East side of Loch Lomond(that’s the section you have to push your bike if your doing the whw) that they have know banned wild camping