What your view on bike brands using unsanctioned trails in promotional material?

Imagine you have a trail down a hill, its not a footpath, bridleway or any other sanctioned right of way, its just a line down a hill that people walk / ride. It also happens to be easily recognisable due to the location and local features.

Now imagine that this hill is managed by one of the largest land owners in the country, one that is sceptical to mountain bikers but willing to get round a table and see what is what while making positive noises but has voiced serious concerns about the specific trail being used.

Lastly, imagine two local bike companies using that hill in promotional videos, photos and maps, not just as a nice scenic background but skidding / roosting through corners and riding it in largely inappropriate weather and conditions for increased dramatic effect.

Would this taint your view of the brands, do you feel they should be more responsible, do you think balls to it a nice trail is a nice trail?

Names and locations withheld so as to not publicise the trail any further.

They might have got permission from the landowner?

Forestry plantation or SSSI? Can’t see the former being that environmentally sensitive. The latter it’d bother me.

Without any details, my money is that it’s the former, so whilst they may be annoying the landowner, it wouldn’t really bother me, and their actions may in fact pave the way for a right of way being recognised at a later date due to the evidence of the trail’s existence and use.

I know a brand that removed a promo from a sponsored athlete after it was pointed out it was a FP.
Probably an email to ask why is an option but also consider they might have permission

Yes, I wouldn’t buy from them. A shop local to me put together an unofficial, mass start downhill race in an area busy with walkers – I no longer use the shop.

I can’t abide the fact we have divided up the beautiful world we live in and allowed it to be sold to people for profit. We are obsessed with the ownership of things.

The world and nature is bigger than any one person waving some deeds around. I don’t see the harm in people riding a bike there. I appreciate this makes me a bit of an asshole, I’m ok with that.

Yes it is an issue, for a couple of reasons. Firstly there are many quiet or little known access agreements in place. Such daft, promoted behaviour can wreak havoc on locals work and relationships. Secondly it encourages many to also behave in a similar manner, and ignore local access and responsible access.

Saracen had some of this last year on / around Helvellyn IIRC.

I know a brand that removed a promo from a sponsored athlete after it was pointed out it was a FP.

Chris Akrigg in Wales somewhere wasn’t it? Saracen?

Nope, not that end of the country

Its open moorland, not quite SSSI but I think (only think, I could be wrong) there is some mild preservation order kind of thing.

angeldust – They might have got permission from the landowner?

They didn’t.

jmatlock – I can’t abide the fact we have divided up the beautiful world we live in and allowed it to be sold to people for profit. We are obsessed with the ownership of things.

The world and nature is bigger than any one person waving some deeds around. I don’t see the harm in people riding a bike there. I appreciate this makes me a bit of an asshole, I’m ok with that.

I kind of agree but lets just say that the land owner is mulling over the idea of opening up many, many more trails if some reduction can be made on a couple of other trails, this being one of them.

So long as people are:

– Not scaring or bothering wildlife
– Not making being rude or impolite to others
– Not riding dangerously where there is limited line of sight

What is the issue? Not using a shop that is trying to get people into grass roots racing? That’s some high horse nonsense right there.

matt_outandabout – Yes it is an issue, for a couple of reasons. Firstly there are many quiet or little known access agreements in place. Such daft, promoted behaviour can wreak havoc on locals work and relationships. Secondly it encourages many to also behave in a similar manner, and ignore local access and responsible access.

I think this is basically the whole thing in a nut shell for me and a couple of others that have been chatting. Just wanted a wider view.

Paddlesports have long worked through the angst of theses issues.

The idealist in me says ‘get out and ride/walk/paddle’.

The pragmatist knows how much effort landowners often put in to accommodate access, and how quickly it can unravel and cause issues. I also know how much effort over years to persuade landowners and other stakeholders that bikers/walkers/paddlers are honestly responsible, nice people who think about more than just themselves – and then one numpty in five minutes erodes the trust that has been built up.

Yes we have some rights, but our responsibility has to be weighed.

Yeah, I’ve seen numerous edits that have cheeky trail content.
I’ve also seen maps at LBSs that show loops mostly made up of footpaths.
More often that not they haven’t had permission to ride it either..
> Chris Akrigg in the Mongoose edit
> Ratboy on that persons wall.

I can see it from both sides but ultimately the red socks/ NIMBYs/ other organizations need to be happy or we lose access and any future relationship is out, which means not advertising these sites to the masses.

Is the location that recognisable? One bit of open moorland looks a lot like another and if someone recognises the location, surely they’re already aware of the trail?

It wouldn’t put me off the company, but I can see how it would damage the rider/landowner relationship….assuming that the landowner became aware of the film?

andeh – Is the location that recognisable? One bit of open moorland looks a lot like another and if someone recognises the location, surely they’re already aware of the trail?

Yes, lets just say one high street looks like another high street but if its got Blackpool tower in the background to the left, the pier to the right and winter gardens behind you, its pretty clear where you are even if you’ve not been there before…

This trail isn’t down Blackpool high street.

Well I may disapprove of it, but it probably wouldn’t really be down to the landowner’s wishes, more whether it was a sensible place to ride. But that said, I don’t get too touchy about riding in the wet – we can’t practically avoid that unlike people living in other climates, although it’s preferable to find something that’s not too sloppy.

@thepodge

As far as I’m aware from doing bike brand photoshoots in the past you need a landowner’s permission to shoot commercially-used material there. In this case you may prefer that they didn’t know about it and it may depend on what’s meant by landowner / manager, but an easy fix may be that the business involved realises that if they didn’t have required permission they’re (as far as I understand) in the wrong and they should remove it.

Interesting point jameso.

Considering the landowner is relatively happy to have people on large parts of their land (and considering opening more up) but has brought up issues with this specific trail in the past, I cannot see that even if asked then they would have given permission.

thepodge – Member

I kind of agree but lets just say that the land owner is mulling over the idea of opening up many, many more trails if some reduction can be made on a couple of other trails, this being one of them.

Yup, that’d flip my switch a bit. Not sjust bike brands and landowners, there’s quite a lot of “responsible use” stuff like this. Like, Gary Forrest did a video where he straightlined a load of corners on a trail we built, instantly loads of other people started copying his “lines” and the trail ended up savaged. MBR did a ride guide on a contentious, weather-sensitive trail and declared it “the best singletrack we’ve ridden anywhere” but didn’t mention anything about “don’t ride it in the wet” even though they ran the article in august… But the damage a big splash Sick Edit can do just from visibility is a level above.

jameso – Member

As far as I’m aware from doing bike brand photoshoots in the past you need a landowner’s permission to shoot commercially-used material there.

I think a lot of people just don’t think that way about it- like, to them they’re not doing a “commercial shoot”, they’re doing a fun amateur edit.

This thread is useless without pictures!
Can we see the video in question please so we can make our own minds up?

which brands?

I’m just confused by the idea that there are two local bike companies in the UK (assuming they make bikes and don’t just sell them). Otherwise, it’s hardly the fault of the bike “brand” what a local distributor/retailer does.

Ratboy on that persons wall.

Much of that vid was on footpaths.

I can see it from both sides but ultimately the red socks/ NIMBYs/ other organizations need to be happy or we lose access

How did the red socks get their access? 85th anniversary coming up…

For the record, I’m personally ambivalent towards the use of any man made paths by bicycles., for advertising.

I’d just like to know to whom I’m being invited to aim opprobrium

There is a also a vid from about 5 years ago of a peripheral British Downhiller and he rides down that trail as well.

It has also been used in a photo in MBR to advertise riding in the area.

If we’re talking about the same trail, of course, which I suspect is easily recognised due to a large man-made structure in the bottom of the valley(?)

On the flipside of this is the fact that some of the guys in the area who do very positive work with regards to trail maintenance and landowner ‘management’ also have videos up on youtube of them riding said trail – albeit under a different ‘banner’.

To my mind, any publicity is bad publicity when it comes to ‘cheeky’ trails.

It often doesn’t help on legit trails either as some people really don’t need any real concerns to want to have a pop at us.

If you’re going to ride cheeky, make sure it is just that – no grandstanding, no cool edits on youtube/vimeo and don’t trash it.

Not being a plonker extends to legit trails as well – there are a few places in the Peaks that really don’t benefit from being ridden in the winter – Cut Gate being one of them.

Its open moorland, not quite SSSI but I think (only think, I could be wrong) there is some mild preservation order kind of thing.

Considering most open moorland is actively managed to prevent the growth of various flora and fauna in favour of the narrow private interests of the landowner and their clients, I generally consider it an artificial environment and so fair game in consideration of ‘environmental protection’. Of course because we don’t know where you’re talking about or who the landowner is it’s impossible to provide an informed view in this case.

Has the landowner let it be widely known that they are considering opening up trails to reduce damage on others? If not how is anyone supposed to know? It’s all very well saying people should just keep off but we know they won’t. Most bikers I know are pretty reasonable and responsible. If they knew there was a particular issue in an area they’d probably avoid it.

If we’re talking about who and where I think we are, perhaps give the company a shout before and naming and shaming. I’m pretty sure they’d be mortified to find they might be potentially causing bother.

was it the one where Chriss Akrigg rides down a valley through trees and over a river and down some rocks on a hard tail before ending at the pub? mongoose wasn’t it.

If you’re going to ride cheeky, make sure it is just that

+1

If we’re talking about who and where I think we are, perhaps give the company a shout before and naming and shaming

Done

Names and locations withheld so as to not publicise the trail any further.

You’re inviting us to be angry or the very least concerned enough to avoid spending money with two companies that you suggest are being irresponsible. That you won’t name them makes it all a bit moot, doesn’t it?

Much of that vid was on footpaths.

I thought you couldnt ride up/down that mountain either 😐

Yeah everyone has been contacted prior to this thread and I’ve not named for good reason.

Unfortunately while one reply seems to be pretty good the other is a bit meh.

nickc –

Names and locations withheld so as to not publicise the trail any further.

You’re inviting us to be angry or the very least concerned enough to avoid spending money with two companies that you suggest are being irresponsible. That you won’t name them makes it all a bit moot, doesn’t it?[/quote]

OK, imagine I’d put “hypothetically” at the beginning.

I’ve no intention of naming names, it doesn’t help and could cause further issue. I was just interested in what other people thought about the scenario, not a witch hunt.

Only I have the solution… 😉

Given I ride FP’s I cant complain.

I’ve no intention of naming names, it doesn’t help

So what’s the point of your thread then? (not being funny or judgemental, just genuinely interested) People ride cheeky all the time every day, there are people riding cheeky right now. What does it matter if it’s filmed?

Outside of a small community of mountain bikers it’s not going to have wide access, so unlikely to stir any issues, I’m willing to bet that since the dawn of video promos for bikes there have been bits of cheeky trails used, indeed, I’ve been on bike mag shoots where the trail used was a F/P, does that matter?

Is it because you happen to know the trails and you think your access may be compromised? If that’s the case are you just wanting to have your own “outrage” vindicated?

At the very least shouldn’t you post the replies? redacted if necessary?

My reaction is ‘meh,’ ride what you want, care not for outdated ownership or rights of way. I tend not to ride footpaths through coz I cba lifting my bikes over stiles!

v666ern – Member

Much of that vid was on footpaths.

I thought you couldnt ride up/down that mountain either
[/quote]

If someone wants to tell you off they have to catch you first and you’re at the top of a hill on a bike!

jekkyl – Member
My reaction is ‘meh,’ ride what you want, care not for outdated ownership or rights of way. I tend not to ride footpaths through coz I cba lifting my bikes over stiles!

we’re not talking about simply riding a cheeky trail…