[Closed] if ever there was a incentive not to use a route..

OK, so the bull can type, but he needs to work on his punctuation.

Illegal to block a ROW like that IIRC

Just a bit of threshold training when it spots you Shirley?

If there's a right of way, the farmer shouldn't be putting a dangerous bull in the field. Farmer by me often puts a bull in a field with a bridleway going through it. It's bloody massive but just a big softy 😀

To be fair, it doesn't say don't enter it just says be aware

As the old sign says "can you cross this field in 60 seconds? Coz the bull can do it in 55"

Presence of a stile rather than a gate suggests it is a footpath so is in no way being blocked. Warning about a bull is fine, but is a double edged sword. On the one hand it may help people who worry about such things to decide whether or not to cross the field. On the other hand he is admitting that the bull may cause problems so would be on shakey ground if anything did happen to someone should the bull do something unpredictable. There are certain breeds of bull (mostly the dairy breeds) which should never be in fields crossed by ROWs. Common sense says that any bull, whatever the breed, should not be put in a field with public access if he is in any way aggressive.

Farmer round here was recently cleared after a bull killed a walker on a footpath. Think it depends if the bull has previous. Seem to recall it was H&S case rather than a Police prosecution.

Good use of capitals and exclamation marks by Mr Bull. Could be one of many posters on here..

Morecash,

Are you referring to the notts/leic case?
That verdict was astounding.

Is that sign in pinefield wood in the lickey hills? Last few times I have been past there always seem to be a group of scared walkers looking for another route.

Illegal to block a ROW like that IIRC

But it's not blocked tho is it?
There's just livestock in the field...

There's just [s]livestock[/s] potentially dangerous animal in the field.

Please, feel free to walk down this alley. There's a bear in it, but go ahead, it's open.

But cows are just as dangerous... If not more so, and people still cross the fields...

I don't think cows are as agressive and likely to attack, are they?

Billy's got some work to do before he gains his knots badge

Got jostled by a herd of heifers at the weekend - this lot [after I'd jumped over, and got me bib shorts stuck, on the fence]. Bricked it tbh - bit pathetic like, but they slowly converged on me and were getting up in my business. Not encountered that behaviour before.

[img] [/img]

Illegal to block a ROW like that IIRC

+1

molgrips - Member
I don't think cows are as agressive and likely to attack, are they?

Garry, we got surrounded like that staying in the lakes a few years back. The neighbour told us they were just curious. Still very disconcerting.

It's an urban myth that Bulls will always charge, and as they're colourblind it's [u][b]bullocks[/b][/u] about the wearing red too...

and some other information on what is and isn't allowed
http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/20/05/2014/144597/tips-on-staying-legal-with-bulls-and-cows-near-footpaths.htm

It's an urban myth that Bulls will always charge

I didn't say they would. I thought they were more likely to charge than cows, what with being full of testosterone and what not, but I added a question mark because I'm not that familiar with cattle.

llegal to block a ROW like that IIRC

Not quite

it would be illegal to place an intimidating sign, like "footpath closed, bull in field" or "dangerous bull, enter at your own risk" but nothing wrong with a warning that there was a bull in the field as in the picture above (as long as there was actually bull in the field, rather than just a sign to put people off using it)

"Beware of the bull" is a little bit dodgy perhaps - "bull in field" would be better

there are rules about age and breed of bulls, so no dairy bulls, and beef bulls must be accompanied by cows or heifers in fields/enclosures that are crossed by PROW.

The eternal rule with cattle jostling like above is to face towards them and stand your ground - they're just young and inquisitive, talk to them, stick your hand out and let them have a sniff - running away really does make it worse.

Bulls are dangerous (aggressive over territory) as are cows with calves (protective). They are more relaxed with people than with dogs which are a natural predator (think wolves). I grew up in the country and I would generally avoid fields with Bulls (and at that time I could run fast !)

it would be illegal to place an intimidating sign, like "footpath closed, bull in field" or "dangerous bull, enter at your own risk" but nothing wrong with a warning that there was a bull in the field as in the picture above (as long as there was actually bull in the field, rather than just a sign to put people off using it)

"Beware of the bull" is a little bit dodgy perhaps - "bull in field" would be better

I'd say more than a bit dodgy. What is the sign expecting an untrained person to do? Is it asking them to make some sort of judgment call as to if the bull is in a sufficiently good mood that it's ok to cross? It's not even a sign politely reminding the public to shut the gate to stop the bull escaping. It is simply an implied threat that the animal the farmer has put in the field could be dangerous. If it is actually dangerous or not is irrelevant - the message is effectively saying that the public right of way is not assuredly safe to cross.

To be honest even 'Bull in field' is wrong - "bull/sheep/pigs/cows/llamas in field - please put dogs on a lead and shut gate" has a purpose, but a blunt and 'bull in field' has implied danger, i.e. 'not safe to cross'.

+1

I don't understand the note.

Did the bull type it and refer to itself in the third person?
Or did the farmer type it and is notifying people of both the bull and the fact that the farmer lives in the field too?

I think some of those government subsidies the farmer will be getting need to be spent on going back to school.

the animal the farmer has put in the field could be dangerous.

Well, sorry to say, it could - would you prefer to pretend that it wasn't true? Its a big scary world out there and the countryside is a working landscape, Bulls can be dangerous, so can cows, so can lots of other species.

'Could' is not the same as 'is' or 'is known to be'!

HSE guidance on the precise wording 'beware of the bull" is mixed, more recent guidance says that you should 'avoid' the word 'beware' however older guidance saw nothing wrong with it, decades of Rights of way law have seen nothing wrong with the phrase, though more recently 'some' PROW officers have begun to say it 'could' be intimidating to 'some' people (largely based on the more recent HSE guidance) - However it would be wildly inaccurate to say it was illegal, 'not recommended' does not equate to illegal or unacceptable

If it is actually dangerous or not is irrelevant - the message is effectively saying that the public right of way is not assuredly safe to cross.

Well, to me as someone who grew up in the countryside, it says nothing more than 'take care' - by that I mean I wouldn't dream of taking a dog in there, but would be more than happy to walk through it,

Then again as someone who grew up in the countryside I wouldn't dream of taking a dog in a field full of cows with calves either, and that seems to happen all the time now, with predictable results! Townies have got a lot to answer for!

Maybe countryies should put better signs up to help the stupid townies out?

Perhaps they should stick to dedicated waymarked walking trails in forests until they've built up a bit of experience and enough knowledge to survive out there in the wild?

We could put a car park, cafe and walking shop there to help them enjoy their day out 😉

'Could' is not the same as 'is' or 'is known to be'!

Well, to me as someone who grew up in the countryside, it says nothing more than 'take care' - by that I mean I wouldn't dream of taking a dog in there, but would be more than happy to walk through it, then again as someone who grew up in the countryside I wouldn't dream of taking a dog in a field full of cows with calves either, and that seems to happen all the time now, with predictable results! Townies have got a lot to answer for!

And this (thankfully) is why I would suggest the sign is wrong. What you are saying here is that the interpretation of signage requires prior experience. Fortunately we are living in enlightened times where folk from the towns might actually want to access the countryside. The subtle nuances of what "beware" means are easily lost. A more proactive sign might go on to give advice to the public who have not been in that situation before as how to proceed whilst still being 'beware'.

Decades of common practice does not makes it right for current times.

The valve is aligned with the logo though, good to see standards being maintained. 🙂

I'll post the link again - not going to quote all of it but it's advice to farmers on this topic, it's quite informative
http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/20/05/2014/144597/tips-on-staying-legal-with-bulls-and-cows-near-footpaths.htm
br />
also people may need to accept that the countryside is a very large working environment that they have the wonderful benefit of being able to enjoy. At times it might not be that good or enjoyable but it's still free to access.

There's nothing wrong with putting a bull in a field with a ROW through (I live on a farm) in the correct circumstances. All recognised dairy breed bulls are not allowed in field with a public right of way at any time and beef bulls are banned unless they're accompanied by other cows or heifers.
I think the fact the farmer has put a sign up is a good thing, though just because it's a bull it doesn't mean it will give chase. I'd say young heifers and cows that have recently calved are potentially more dangerous to the public, I've had more than a few give chase when I've been rounding them to come in for milking!

Perhaps they should stick to dedicated waymarked walking trails in forests until they've built up a bit of experience and enough knowledge to survive out there in the wild?

And how do they get this knowledge without help? All it takes is a standard sign with a few bullet points.

people may need to accept that the countryside is a very large working environment that they have the wonderful benefit of being able to enjoy

Alternatively, farmers need to accept that the countryside is everyone's, they just have the opportunity to work in it 😉

I remember crossing fields with all sorts of livestock, including Bulls, when I was younger, both walking and Riding, I don't remember Farmers bothering to put up extra signage...

Very Seldom was there and issue, just because there's a Bull doesn't mean it's going to charge you...

The Farmer's simply trying to make people aware of a [i]potential[/i] risk, nowhere in the sign does He try to prohibit entry, re-route/block the ROW or threaten certain injury/death...

Treating ROW user's like grown-ups, inform them of a risk, let them make up their own minds how to proceed.

Crap Grammar, but relatively responsible, proportionate conduct IMO...

It's basic intimidation. No reason ever for any farmer to put a Bull in a field with a PROW going through it.

I rip these down and remove them.

Marko

And how do they get this knowledge without help? All it takes is a standard sign with a few bullet points.

Does your bike have a sticker like this on it?

[img] ?w=500[/img]

The Farmer's simply trying to make people aware of a potential risk, nowhere in the sign does He try to prohibit entry, re-route/block the ROW or threaten certain injury/death...

Treating ROW user's like grown-ups, inform them of a risk, let them make up their own minds how to proceed.

This!

Does your bike have a sticker like this on it:

No because it's my bike and I know all about the risks and issues. That's not my bull in that field, so I know nothing about it.

The Farmer's simply trying to make people aware of a potential risk

Only in the vaguest possible sense. He's not really said anything useful. He needs to say either "Keep out this bull is dangerous" or "This bull is fine, don't worry about it but don't go flicking its balls with rubber bands"

Even if PROW users know all about bulls, they won't necessarily know anything about that particular bull.

Never have a problem with bulls/cows when I ride at trail centres .

@marko - don't be daft, might be the only field he can use at that time.

Were people this blinkered about their rights of access in tbe past? The farmer has a right to use the land as much as we have a right to use a ROW. What we need to do is accept that the whole world doesn't revolve around "us" or "them", and accept that sometimes you can't have exactly what you want, exactly how you want it, just when you want it.

Well to give a little background on our situation, if I may..

We've got 2 Farms up in Harrogate, we have 130 herd of cattle and 260 (at last count) sheep and 1 Bull.
We have 6 footpaths running East/West and 1 North/South covering 6 of the 9 fields we have.
The Bull sleeps in a field at the bottom of a steep bank with no footpaths in/across and yet we still have walkers crossing the field to get a shortcut to the opposite bank and then a bridleway (that's part of the next Farm)
Anywhoo's Old Farmer MrBouy is a reet grumpy git and one encounter late last year with a walker and them crossing the Bull field ended up in Police hands.. MrBouy chased the walker off (waiving a bloody shotgun of all things, him having been rabbiting) and rightly walker person called the Plod.
All this quite rightly got pulled into court with MrBouy having his license taken away (about time) and we also got a warning about the Bull.
Seems it doesn't matter if the footpath does/doesn't cross the field if a Bull is in there or not, we were "in control" and should take "due dilligence" and advised to patrol the field on a regular basis and reinforce all the fences around the field (we did that). If the Bull is in with Cows breeding then we were told to move the Cows into the field with the Bull and not the other way around..
The Farm has been in the family for 6 generations, all farmers too so very experianced.
Seems the Law is catching up with the lack of due dilligence of old and replacing it with new guidance. I'm actually in favour of this, I feel, provided it causes no damage and angst to livestock, that all folk should be able to cross fields if on thier way to somewhere else.. What I wouldn't like is folks hanging around worrying livestock.
We don't really suffer with Dogs off leads, most who access the footpaths have been fine.

One more thing, we do have signs up, signs that state both "Bull in Field" and "Cattle in Field" with a "please be kind to our animals" strapline, have done for many years.

It's a concern, but I'd say if you feel intimidated by animals you can turn around and find another route through.

V8_shin_print - Member
The valve is aligned with the logo though, good to see standards being maintained.

8)

I don't think cows are as agressive and likely to attack, are they?

I got charged by one out running once. To be fair, she had her calf with her and I wanted to get past on a thin path.

She actually caught me a glancing blow with her head before setting up to charge again, giving me a chance to get past. Not something I wish to repeat.

Saying that, there's plenty of ROWs round here that cross fields with cattle in. I tend to walk or ride past very slowly in a calm, confident manner, and deliberately avoid going near any calves.

These signs are all much betterer:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Molgrips, if you really want that level of certainty regarding livestock's Mood, then outdoors probably isn't for you...

I believe Bulls can actually detect IT professionals by smell and The outcome can be messy, They don't generally charge, it's much worse, they ask you to sort out their iffy router...

I remember crossing fields with all sorts of livestock, including Bulls, when I was younger, both walking and Riding, I don't remember Farmers bothering to put up extra signage...

Same here, I'm only in my 30's but crossing a field with a bull in was almost a rite of passage and something that had to be done when I was younger 😆

I suppose these days with the decline in common sense, over the top health & safety, and being liable for other people's stupidity things like this are going to happen!

Molgrips, if you really want that level of certainty regarding livestock's Mood, then outdoors probably isn't for you...

Yeah thanks for the lifestyle tip.

The point is that the farmer has gone to the trouble of typing out a sign. Why the hell didn't he put anything useful on it? It wouldn't have taken any more time or effort, and would clear up the ambiguity. Is the bull dangerous in the farmer's opinion, or not?

I work for an organisation that owns hundreds of sites in remote locations. We are no way required, either by law, guidance or policy to make the countryside an extension of a kids soft play area. HOWEVER, when we leave a site, we put out clear, visible and appropriate measures to allow people make decisions to protect themselves, it's fairly simple.

This sort of pointless behaviour is just childish. If you've gone to the bother of printing the sign, why not just put some useful info on it rather than a sense of entitlement in print.

Is the bull dangerous in the farmer's opinion, or not?

Its an animal that weighs over a ton and can run at 20mph+ - all bulls are potentially dangerous

why not just put some useful info on it

'There is a bull in this field! It could be in a good mood, it could be in a bad mood, who knows? You're welcome to use the footpath if you want to, he's never hurt anyone before but you never know if or when that could change... good luck!'

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-little-white-bull-ride-country-lad-rep-in-tatters ]this old thread reveals my shame[/url]

Run at it, shouting!!!

And shut that gate!!!!

Only in the vaguest possible sense. He's not really said anything useful. He needs to say either "Keep out this bull is dangerous"

If the bull was dangerous then it would be illegal to keep it in a field with a public right of way so it's pretty simple really.
It's like people who have dogs in their yards, they might not be dangerous or prone to biting but visitors might just have a phobia of them so it's nice to pre warn them.

don't be daft, might be the only field he can use at that time.

Really?
What Farmer doesn't have enough acreage to keep a Bull well away from a PROW? If the Bull has to go in a field with a PROW then there are simple solutions, such as a temporary electric fence maybe?

Sorry, no excuse for it really.

Marko

Which breeds of bull are legally not allowed in fields crossed by footpaths?

The general rule set out in statute is that it is an offence to allow a bull in a field crossed by a public right of way, but there are exceptions to this.

No offence will be committed if either: the bull in question is under 10 months old or it does not belong to a recognised dairy breed and is at large in any field or enclosure in which cows or heifers are also at large. A dairy breed defined by the act is one of the following: Ayrshire, British Friesian, British Holstein, Dairy Shorthorn, Guernsey, Jersey and Kerry.

Do farmers have to put up warning signs for walkers?

It is good practice to display signs informing the public that there is a bull in the field.

If the bull was dangerous then it would be illegal to keep it in a field with a public right of way so it's pretty simple really.

In order to be of any help, the sign should therefore say "there is a bull in here but it is not known to be dangerous" (after all, anything else would be illegal, you're saying). I also think the bollocks/rubber band advice is probably worth adding.

The existing sing is likely there purely to intimidate "townies" - the unlikely alternative is that the farmer is trying to be helpful and welcoming but is a very poor communicator

The Farmer's simply trying to make people aware of a potential risk, nowhere in the sign does He try to prohibit entry, re-route/block the ROW or threaten certain injury/death...

Treating ROW user's like grown-ups, inform them of a risk, let them make up their own minds how to proceed.

Farmers responsibility and they should not do it for obvious reasons

All RA is remove the risk - ie put it in another field

There is no issue having a bull in a field, if it's on a list of ones you can't or known to be dangerous you wouldn't put it in the field. It's advised to tell people there is a bull in the field - it probably saves people hysterically complaining there is a bull in a field and no sign.

All RA is remove the risk - ie put it in another field

Of course there is nothing to say they are a risk..its not like they have been know to kill or maim

Anwyay I have these knifes for you to juggle with and good news - they have never ever stabbed anyone so they are safe 😉

I assume we both get each others point
Its best to avoid doing this IMHO
If you have to it is best to put a sign up

This just sounds like someone who wants to be a pain in the arse for no particular reason. If the bull in the field is in line with the rules regarding what livestock can be kept where there is a PROW then what is the problem? The farmer has put up a warning about said bull for members of the public who might be wary of large farm animals and obviously made a vague attempt to be humerous about it.
There is no law stating they have to provide a sign.

so we all agree he has introduced a potential risk to a ROW and hos minimisation of this risk its to leave it up to others to decide to "risk it or not" Not even close to best practice

Except, erm, it is - there's pretty extensive advice published by the HSE that says its perfectly acceptable to put Bulls in fields with rights of way crossing them, and to put a sign warning walkers of their presence.

Seem to be a lot of opinionated people on this thread completely ignoring the legal and H&S guidance being quoted by people working in the field (sorry!) as it does not suit their point of view.

Gets coat - I admit I did not read all the thread
😳

What sign should a farmer erect to warn the public that there may be STW forum members in his field..?

[img] [/img]

As ninfan correctly says earlier, it is illegal to display a sign which is ‘offputting’ (anything to deter lawful use of the path). As an aside there is a separate offence of displaying misleading signs (if there were no bulls in the field).

The FWI article is very good actually and mirrors my, ninfans and others issue with the use of the word ‘beware’. “Bull in field” is now generally accepted (by the HSE, NFU, etc) as being the preferred wording – as the website rightly states, ‘beware’ infers that the farmer / occupier is aware that the animal’s behaviour might sufficiently be dangerous enough to necessitate use of the word ‘beware’, which again, is a separate offence from the whole ‘bulls not older than 10 months / not of a recognised dairy breed / with a heiffer’ thing.

“Bull in field” implies no danger or necessitates prior experience of walking in fields with bulls, but merely lets path users know that there is a bull in the field. The reason being is that walkers who don’t like bulls or other large animals would rather find another way around than find themselves in a field with a bull staring at them. Over the years I’d have to say a majority of walkers would agree and prefer they have the choice.

I think the sign is OK, but if I were being hyper-critical I’d ask the farmer to scribble out ‘Beware’ (and the excessive exclamation marks TBH). I wouldn’t class it as an obstruction.

What sign should a farmer erect to warn the public that there may be STW forum members in his field..?

I think annoyances - filth / offensive matter [url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/161 ] would cover that[/url] 🙂

So you're Real complaint molgrips is not that the farmer has highlighted a potential risk to ROW users, but that he hasn't then put some quantifiable measure of that risk that can be understood by someone completely unfamiliar with farming and it's risks...

Could this help:

[img] [/img]

cookeaa You set em up I'll knock em down

Do we need some sort of agreed wording for "beware bullshit" on forum threads?

[i]"To be fair, it doesn't say don't enter it just says be aware"[/i]

I ate a pear, but what will i wear
ive got no spare, only a pair

It's not about Health and Safety or what's legal or not, it's about doing the right thing.

The Farmer should really be considering users of the PROW who [i]may[/i] be intimidated by a Bull in a field - even when the Farmer knows old Billy the Bull is deaf, half blind and has a wooden leg.

Marko

The Farmer should really be considering users of the PROW who may be intimidated by a Bull in a field - even when the Farmer knows old Billy the Bull is deaf, half blind and has a wooden leg.

Bull which poses no greater threat to the public as cows.

No threat - no sign required in that case perhaps? Or how about a temporary diversion then? Segregate the PROW with a temporary electric fence?

Would you consider putting that sort of inflexibility on your workplace?

Don't get me started . . . 😥

Marko

No threat - no sign required in that case perhaps?

Marko - can you confirm what experience or qualifications you have to tell farmers, ROW officers and HSE that they are wrong?

Would you consider putting that sort of inflexibility on your workplace?

Don't get me started . . .

can you confirm what experience or qualifications you have to tell farmers, ROW officers and HSE that they are wrong?

Where did I say they were wrong?

I'm just suggesting a sensible approach based on a little consideration. Don't put a Bull in a field with PROW. If you have to, then make a temporary alternative path or use an electric fence. It's not hard really.

@ Mike

It has nothing to do with 'meandering' and perceived danger. It is a PROW that happens to go through a field. The PROW will have been there way before any Bull was ever in the field - more than likely the PROW existed before it was even a field.

splitting a field in half sounds great, you going to pay for that?

That will just be the cost to the Farmer of their course of action.

I simply suggesting that with a little consideration there will never be a need for Bull to be in a field that has PROW passing through it. That's all
Marko

then complaining about the signs.

I complain about stupid pointless signs, yes - that's not unreasonable.

Marko - Member
If the Bull has to go in a field with a PROW then there are simple solutions, such as a temporary electric fence maybe?

Ohh wait.

Marko - Member

I rip these down and remove them.

Marko - Member

It's not about Health and Safety or what's legal or not, it's about doing the right thing.

The Farmer should really be considering users of the PROW who may be intimidated by a Bull in a field - even when the Farmer knows old Billy the Bull is deaf, half blind and has a wooden leg.

p.s. your suggestion of an electric fence is about as usefull as a toothpick at a gunfight, a ton of bull at a gentle amble will knock it over before it even shocks him. The method of keeping bulls in one place is a nose ring, chain and a stake in the ground.

Your version of the "doing the right thing" is (fairly minor) criminal damage, unless someone goes into the field with a dog not knowing the bulls in there.

Keep to the edge of the field, away from livestock, don't take a dog in and be prepared to climb the wall/fence if it takes an unfriendly interest in you.

Should the owner come out with his boat to ferry users across to appease those with a sense of entitlement to use that right of way regardless?

We all know what water does, and we can see the risk immediately.

If the farmer wants you to keep out, then the sign should say 'keep out'. If the farmer wants to to be careful, the sign should say 'be careful'. etc.

If the farmer wants you to keep out, then the sign should say 'keep out'. If the farmer wants to to be careful, the sign should say 'be careful'. etc.

Do woods have instructions saying do not approach the badgers, they bite? A copy of the working at heights directive at the top of the Snowdon Ranger path?