[/b]Coffeeking….what does the highway code recommend? Is it written by cyclists? Every road different, every situation different, my foot from kerb with head down suits me just fine and has done for years incident free. Alot of drivers dont have half a brain unfortunately and try to get from a to b at any cost, I just try to stick to my section of road and let them all get on with it. Its not right and would be much nicer if we could all get on together as road users singing and whistling as cysclists and drivers bond together but its a fact of life it aint going to happen so I’ll keep to my section of road and let other road users hopefully stick to theirs without encroaching my space. Not trying to be nice to drivers, just keeping myself to myself and hopefully not annoying drivers. Its a sad fact of life that riding further away from the kerb does annoy alot of drivers no matter how wrong that may be.

whatnobeer….Id rather not annoy drivers by sticking to my 12inches from the kerb. Yes, it does annoy drivers if you prevent them getting past you, a fact and a sad state of affairs, everyone should be equal on the road no matter what mode of transport. By not annoying them Im hoping that they dont try to squeeze through that narrow gap with me. Yes, I know this doesnt work in every scenario, depends on driver, every case different. My view is that if a driver behind you can see that youre not preventing them getting past you by riding in middle of lane then they are less likely to try to squeeze past you and wait. Again, everyone will have different views.

Definitely not making excuses for damgerous driving as there is no excuse for it.

londoncyclist……yet another sad state of affairs but cycling far away from Kerb does annoy drivers and give cyclists bad name. Completlely wrong but it happens, I wish it didnt. And no, it doesnt mean you should ride close to the kerb but I chose to.

Cyclecraft….as somebody said above ” Cyclecraft is just the least worst way of dealing with it, but that creates conflict like in the vids when drivers think you’re doing it to annoy them or because you think you “own the roads”.

My style of riding suits me and has done me well (so far) but god knows what my return journey today will be like and how many motorists I annoy.

Everyone got valid points but unfortunately they dont apply to every rider or situation.

Everyone got valid points but unfortunately they dont apply to every rider or situation

so why kick off by condemning in no uncertain terms riders who do not position themselves as you do?

SiB – that is a very dangerous riding style you adopt – seriously – get some training or read cyclecraft. You risk becoming an accident statistic riding like that

The BBC article has censored a line form the driver’s defence:

“I was following the advice of the BBC’s drving specialist, Jeremy Clarkson”.

Chevrons, and they’re bordered by broken lines meaning they CAN be crossed if it’s safe to do so.

This isn’t exactly true. According to THC you “should not” enter chevron areas unless necessary (and safe).

Though, quite what defines ‘necessary’, I don’t know.

SiB. If you ride 30 cm from the kerb, where are you going to go when someone tries to squeeze past you because they think there’s room between you and a traffic island / on-coming vehicle?

Why not check what’s behind you, and take the position in the road preventing someone from doing that until the road widens. Remember, car drivers are supposed to overtake you as if you were a car anyway, so you’re not slowing them down by being further out.

Like a kipper. “Did you just threaten to kill me?” “Yes I did.” Enjoy your trip to court… 😀

Though, quite what defines ‘necessary’, I don’t know.

I think overtaking stationary traffic on a bicycle counts. Clearly it’s open to interpretation – I very much doubt anybody has ever been prosecuted just for entering a chevron area with broken lines – effectively it’s just an extended version of the longer “hazard warning” centre lines, about which the HC says:
“Do not cross it unless you can see the road is clear and wish to overtake or turn off.”

As for the people condemning the lawyer for going to the police for something “trivial”, well see the conviction rate for bad driving around cyclists as evidenced on this very thread – it’s very hard to get a successful conviction. Threatening language is far simpler, as you just have to prove that the threat was made – it’s an absolute offence. Do you really think it’s not a good thing for this driver to be prosecuted for something?

Enjoy your trip to court…

I’m kind of surprised he didn’t reply with that at that point – it was a bit of an obvious setup when he got the driver to confirm his words!

The real problem here is lack of cycling infrastructure.

No, the real problem here is lack of awareness & consideration of other road users.

Cycling Infrastructure is the least worst way of dealing with it.

Motorist Says : “You should be riding on the cycle path”
Transalation : “I’m too stupid/lazy/inconsiderate to make allowances for slower road users”

Motorist Says : “You should be wearing a hi-viz jacket”
Translation : “I’m too stupid to pay proper attention to what’s right in front of me when I’m driving”

londoncyclist….not kicking off at all. Everyone got there own riding style and if they’re happy with that then they should carry on as normal. I’ve always ridden the way I do and its done me no harm and hopefully doesnt wind drivers up. All im saying it annoys alot of drivers if cyclist far away from kerb probably cos they’re not cyclists themselves. In an ideal world driver should always wait until safe to overtake but this doesnt happen.

tandemjeremy….I’m off to read cyclecraft, I hope its written by cyclists who commute everyday!!? If cyclist on youtube vid is riding the cyclecraft way then its not a good advert for following the cyclecraft way IMO, its just a way to annoy idiot drivers and wind them up as proved. If cyclecraft any good then i suppose it should say at the first sign of ‘road rage/confrontation/annoyed’ drivers just stop cycling and let the motorist drive off.

zokes……I think the important phrase is ‘supposed to overtake you as if you were a car’. If this was the case all of the time then Id ride away from the kerb more. If someone tries to squeeze past me then I guess im on the pavement or grass verge either on two wheels or on my backside, we’ll see when it happens. It alwys worries me that if I prevent an idiot driver from passing me he’ll prevent me from carrying on with my commute.

As I previously said it all depends on situation – 3 miles of my commute is on 60mph bendy realtively narrow A roads and a dead straight mile which encourages drivers to speed. On the bendy A road if a car was coming up the hill to the bend at 60mph and I was away from kerb and on coming car then I guess I would be hit as they are tight corners at brow of hill and driver wouldnt be able to stop in time so I keep in to kerb. Im surprised it is a 60mph road.

Cyclecraft is a way of riding.

Have a read with an open mind. Good on you for having a think about it. Many folk on here cannot take any criticism of their riding

I was away from kerb and on coming car then I guess I would be hit as they are tight corners at brow of hill and driver wouldnt be able to stop in time so I keep in to kerb. Im surprised it is a 60mph road.

On a left hand bend they would be able to see you from much further away

I’m off to read cyclecraft, I hope its written by cyclists who commute everyday!!?

Yep! It’s written by John Franklin and is the foundation of Bikability / National Cycle Training Standard (i.e. the modern “cycling proficiency test”)

http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/

No, the real problem here is lack of awareness & consideration of other road users.

Theres a lot of people, in fact i’d say most people, that are too afraid to cycle on the roads and i don’t think thats going to be resolved by education alone. Building roads with pinch points, urban dual carriageways with 40mph limits (often driven at close to 60mph) and large urban gyratorys are examples of really poor design that makes mixing bicycles with vehicles unnecessarily difficult. Its all very well telling people to move into the middle lane and cycle at 20mph hoping theres an understanding driver behind you, but i can hardly imagine my 60 year old mother or a small child doing that.

Several large cities in the world seem to be doing a lot more in that respect, even car dominated australia and america..
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggKG0DdF5c[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9DciyXiRug[/video]

I agree with where cyclecraft is coming from and directing people towards, if it makes the roads a safer place for all concerned then I hope everyone reads it and digests the advice, car drivers included.

Big difference in my opinion from commuter traffic and ‘leisurely’ drivers and different styles needed. For example I would never ride two abreast whilst commuting but would on say a sunday morning due to different drivers and attitudes. I feel safe on my commute and kniow I wouldnt if adopted cyclecraft techniques of riding further away from kerb. Not wanting to tempt fate I’ve always got to work and back safely. I often wonder if the car that got quite close to me would have actually hit me if I was further away from kerb or whether he/she would have stopped as they couldnt get past me? Its not a question I want answering by experimenting with a different riding position in the road – Ive had non-eventful commutes which Im very happy to remain uneventful!

Maybe road width and speed limits account for my riding style? If there were alot of left side roads with the school run coming out of I could well be tempted to adopt a more central lane position for example.

At the end of the day I dont want to hear of any cyclists involved in any accidents or conflicts and if their riding style is a proven safe one for them then why change? I know that if I changed mine for a more central position I would be panicing about cars approaching me from behind on the 60mph stretches in the rain on dark nights such as tonight, on frosty ice covered car window mornings, at anytime actually.

Cyclecraft doesn’t suggest riding in the middle of the road all the time, though that seems to be a common misconception of people that haven’t read it.

But one of the key messages is that if you want/need drivers to notice and engage with you as a vehicle, rather than ignore you, then you need to be part of traffic, not incidental to it. Hence the ideas about taking control of the lane when you need to, staying out at junctions etc.

Having said that, I wouldn’t personally go anywhere near a 60mph road on me bike – especially on a dark rainy night with frost about!

SiB, good that you are going to read cyclecraft but would be better if you were man enough to withdraw your first comment. The wriggling probably does not convince anybody.

the cyclist does seem to be riding in middle of the lane on numerous occassions which would annoy me if I was behind him. I havent seen the full video but IMO its cyclist like him that give alot of cyclists a bad name.

All im saying it annoys alot of drivers if cyclist far away from kerb probably cos they’re not cyclists themselves.

I agree with where cyclecraft is coming from and directing people towards, if it makes the roads a safer place for all concerned then I hope everyone reads it and digests the advice, car drivers included.

So if you want motorists to digest this advice (as you claim) do you:
(a) ride submissively, condemn cyclists who ride assertively (‘gives cyclists a bad name’)and find excuses for thugs (‘would annoy me’) or
(b)challenge thug, report thug and get him prosecuted?

IMO whoever described cyclist as ‘pathetic’ might have a go at this multiple choice test as well.

Shame this thread got so polarised and personal.

I can understand what SiB was saying in respect of drivers not understanding why cyclists may want to take the lane. They should understand, but they don’t. No-one’s told them about Cyclecraft* (read only by committed assertive cyclists?) or Bikeability. “Central government” moved the goalposts when they legitimized primary position etc – but they haven’t told the great driving public yet …..

But a problem with the Franklin view of the world is that effectively marginalises those who feel comfortable near the kerb – the shoppers and kids trundling along at 8mph – why shouldn’t they be able to do that?

*yep I’ve read it.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pFOQUn1y8Y[/video]

But a problem with the Franklin view of the world is that effectively marginalises those who feel comfortable near the kerb – the shoppers and kids trundling along at 8mph – why shouldn’t they be able to do that?

The existence of a book giving guidance on a safer way to cycle doesn’t stop anybody riding in the gutter. Are you seriously suggesting that it makes life more dangerous for them?

But one of the key messages is that if you want/need drivers to notice and engage with you as a vehicle, rather than ignore you, then you need to be part of traffic, not incidental to it. Hence the ideas about taking control of the lane when you need to, staying out at junctions etc.

I agree with this, however…
If I commuted by bike I think I’d actually sit in the queue at lights etc to emphasise the point
If we opt out of being part of the traffic whenever it suits us, I don’t see why “they” should respect our right to rejoin whenever we feel like it
Of course it doesn’t mean they can run us you lot over or off the road but I can see why it would irritate drivers, being constantly re-overtaken at lights by a bike that (again) slows them down for 10 (more) seconds

If I commuted by bike I think I’d actually sit in the queue at lights etc to emphasise the point
If we opt out of being part of the traffic whenever it suits us, I don’t see why “they” should respect our right to rejoin whenever we feel like it

no offence but if you dont commute you are not going to persuade those of us who do and have done for decades

It is not illegal to filter and we are always part of the traffic and are not asking to rejoin it

you think it does not irate the cyclist being overtaken by a car that they then just need to overtake when it stops in the traffic …works both ways sometimes they are faster and sometimes we are.

Everyone learnt to ride like this by cars cutting us up/near misses and taking up defensive/positive/assertive positions to make them treat us as trffic and with respect. it would be great to get respect without having to do this but try commuting and you will see this is not happening [ to be fair few road users get respect these days.

Cyclist have little chance when even non commuting cyclists dont get it

I’d actually sit in the queue at lights etc to emphasise the point

I think this is a question of degree. I will cheerfully sit behind a couple/few cars at the lights if I know I will get though on next green (not because it isn’t safe to go by them but because it does seem to risk upsetting a few. I do though tend to use ASLs if they are there). However I think it completely unreasonable to expect a cyclist to sit in a long line of traffic.
Any sane motorist should recognise that a bicycle is traffic but can get through when/where cars cannot.

If I commuted by bike I think I’d actually sit in the queue at lights etc to emphasise the point
If we opt out of being part of the traffic whenever it suits us, I don’t see why “they” should respect our right to rejoin whenever we feel like it

If driving, would you sit behind a cyclist on the open road rather than overtake if you knew you were coming up to a set of traffic lights where the cyclist would get stuck behind you? What’s the difference?

What’s the difference?

If I overtook a cyclist who had another car (or cyclist) right in front of him I’d be a dickhead driver. What would a driver think of a cyclist who pulls themself out of a line of cars and then reinserts themself whenwver they like ?

If I overtook a cyclist who had another car (or cyclist) right in front of him I’d be a dickhead driver.

So if you overtake a cyclist who then gets stuck behind you at traffic lights you’re a dickhead driver.

I ask again, what’s the difference? Why the distinction between overtaking on the bit where the car can go faster and the bit where the cyclist can go faster?

Why the distinction between overtaking on the bit where the car can go faster and the bit where the cyclist can go faster?

cyclist is effectively (especially in the eyes of a driver I suspect) removing themself from the (line of) traffic to gain “advantage”, then reinserting themselves ahead of the cars who’ll once again need to oertake when traffic starts to move

If the cyclist remained in the line of traffic they couldn’t go faster either as there’d be a stationary vehicle dead ahead

I suspect it’s seen as simple queue jumping by drivers and few things make the british madder than that

If they miss a set of lights it’ll cost them, what, maybe 2-3 minutes each time – on here we like to say they’ll only catch up to the queue in front but it’s not true; they will never catch the car that was in front of them and just got through the lights before they had to stop.

The futile raging of a motorist “trapped” at the lights, especially if it’s “due” to the actions of somebody else, is fun but terrifying to witness. I see it every day, pretty much

What would a driver think of a cyclist who pulls themself out of a line of cars and then reinserts themself whenwver they like ?

I would think I wish i was on my bike what about you?
Basically what seem to be saying is that cars can overtake cyclists when they are slower than the car but when the car is slower than the cyclists they cannot overtake them.

Clearly you are applying a different status to one road user to another and you claim to be a cyclist.

the highway code is clear filtering [passing] is legal.

EDIT: seei as you posted it is not a race it is not about advantage it is about moving as fast as the conditions safely allow for your road vehicle. Sometimes this is greater for a cyclist than a car

I have no idea why you are now talking about “car drivers” in the hypothetical as if this is not your own view.

good luck finding a cyclist who does not filter in stationary traffic

But the driver is “queue jumping” by overtaking a cyclist who later catches him up. Why should the cyclist miss a phase of the lights and be held up for an extra 2-3 minutes just because some selfish drivers have overtaken him?

yes excellent point we would be going much faster if theses stationary cars were not impeding our progress b simply using the road at the same time as us the inconsiderate bastards.
Whats worse they had the cheek to overtake us to get to the queue earlier and then SLOW ME DOWN …OUTRAGEOUS

Imagine a supermarket

All the basket only tills and the self checkouts are broken and there’s one till available:

If you’re standing at the checkout, in a line of people with trolleys, and I walk in front of your trolley then push in because I’m carrying a basket and more mobile, it’s different to me, earlier, walking down the last aisle faster than you and reaching the checkout first

(I’m not saying this is my opinion but I think this is probably how drivers (who don’t cycle) feel)

Just want to add something here.

Biggest peice of advice i have taken and really glad i took it was to “take primary” road position as much as i can during my rides.

It really does pay to hold up traffic and piss of drivers rather than them pushing you, ie the cyclist into the drainage part of the road.

Kidding aside though, if you do take primary it is safer, but you WILL get abused to hell from drivers, something which i think needs to be addressed maybe through the DVLA and their exams.

Example of why,

Going down a road with a school nearby thus lots of badly parked cars along the road, both sides.

As i coming up the road traffic coming towards me, with a parked car ahead, i have plenty of time to get ahead of parked car before car ahead comes near….

As i do my “safty check” over shoulder before going around the parked car another car wizzing from behind me overtakes, but fails to do so properly ,thus has to pull in front of me and cutt me up thus blocking me into the parked car. 👿

This is what pisses me off a lot, taking primary position and still people try to push you off the road into the drains..

(I’m not saying this is my opinion but I think this is probably how drivers (who don’t cycle) feel)

sounds like it is your opinion, but whatever. Those car drivers who think that are pretty bloody shortsighted then aren’t they? I odn’t complain when a car safely overtakes on faster section (I even “take myself out of the traffic” on wide roads so as not to impede drivers behind me) why should they feel entitled to complain about filtering?

Do you still ride 1ft away from parked cars too? Thats the door zone and you don’t want to ride there. If you do ride there then you’ll be pissing off those drivers behind you. tricky eh?

The only problem with primary postion is no-one told the motorists, pretty bloody important step they missed out there, lots of drivers think you are just being a dick and trying to hold them up.

aye it is your opinion and I am not sure you can compare the supermarket to the open road. nonetheless lets run with it
Imagine when you try to overtake on the aisle [with a hand basket] you cannot because there is a large queue of trollies all blocking your way and you could easily pass them but you dont you just sit in the “queue” and wait your turn rather than use your mobility. Surely you are not one of those irritating types who has a hand baskets and squeezes through gaps my stationary trolley wont fit whilst I am stuck and impeded by other trolleys are you.
If someone with a trolley passes me [is gong faster than me] whilst i select which mung beans to buy [ always hard to find ] can i get annoyed because i just need too overtake then when they get stuck again- queue jumpers why can they just not wait
ETC
Passing a stationary car is nothing like queue jumping at a till and to try and compare the two is just poor thinking.

Just ride on the road and let us know what you do in a few years time.

sounds like it is your opinion, but whatever

wot eva, indeed

I can see their view but, frankly, where I commute there are too few bikes to make a major difference. Dunno how I’d feel if I drove in London (then again, I hope I wouldn’t be daft enough to try to drive in London if I lived & worked there)
I have never shouted at a cyclist, other than once (not really shouting at) to suggest he move out more from the kerb as drivers were taking the piss and endangering him

Those car drivers who think that are pretty bloody shortsighted then aren’t they?

shortsighted or not, you can’t possibly believe that this is not a prevalent view, or at least that derision for cyclists is real and widespread ?

there is a large queue of trollies all blocking your way and you could easily pass them but you dont you just sit in the “queue” and wait your turn rather than use your mobility. Surely you are not one of those irritating types who has a hand baskets and squeezes through gaps my stationary trolley wont fit whilst I am stuck and impeded by other trolleys are you

Depends – if they’re all in line waiting for mung beans then (assuming the combined flatulence isn’t overwhelming 😉 ) I’ll wait behind them if I want beans too. If I wanted jaffa cakes further down, then yeah, I’ll go through (that’d be real filtering though – where they’re lined for one route and I’m intending to use another lane and route)

Just ride on the road and let us know what you do in a few years time

You forgot to pat me on the head for full patropoints !
Of course I’ve ridden on the road – 5 yrs daily commuting round the Nottingham ring road. WHen “we” reached the lights I remained in the queue – I was already “in” it as I was using primary position, or whatever it was called then

If the gutter is full of potholes, crap and unsuitable for riding as cyclists (rightly) say, why would I have gone onto it. If it’s fine to ride in the gutter near the lights, why not elsewhere ? It just devalues the argument it expediency can override it

If I commuted by bike

you said that up there when i joined this thread hence why i say you dont commute but you seem to have moved somewhat from this position now.

If I was currently having a big poo the chair I’m sitting on would be very messy

Although I have pooed in the past, you’ll be delighted to hear that I’m not doing so right now JY

Unfair – I actually hadn’t seen your 1st response to me JY. I saw aracer’s and off we went
Soz

Edited after ^^^^^^ edit

What do you mean you did not read me 😥

no probs

It is not illegal to filter and we are always part of the traffic and are not asking to rejoin it

Just to give my view on that original point though:
I think when you subsequently move out of the gutter after filtering and “reclaim” your safe road posotioning, you’d be conidered to be asking to rejoin the stream of traffic
I just think it’s poor PR

What do you mean you did not read me

I had to turn off that filter thingy before seeing your stuff 😉