Viewing 29 posts - 41 through 69 (of 69 total)
  • Bolton is in lockdown
  • Nick
    Full Member

    Question? How far from the left does one have to stray before one gets tarred as a right wing extremist?

    When you start supporting discrimination based on ethnicity, race or religion, making apologies for those that do support these views is at best misguided at worst complicit.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    NIck link was critical of the tactics involved and it main point was that the press reported numbers incorrectly, accepted that UAF memebrs threw bottles and the tactiis used were rubbish – it seemed fairly even in its treatment what was your exact objection?

    weest are you happy with EDL statement of Islam as a cancer ?

    weester
    Full Member

    Badger, I've just re-read your post, it reads like typical left wing propaganda and I'm not buying it.

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    Nick
    Full Member

    what was your exact objection?

    to what?

    binners
    Full Member

    Nick – Thats my point. The police must have known full well what was going to happen. We all did. And we had very little interest in the demo.

    So for some reason they let them go ahead with it. And you don't have to be a social affairs editor to guess what the end result would be

    Nick
    Full Member

    Badger, I've just re-read your post, it reads like typical left wing propaganda and I'm not buying it.

    Eh? Surely you don't have to be a raving lefty to recognise the EDL for what it is?

    Binners – it's pretty clear that they are trying to discredit UAF, that's the serious tactical mistake that the UAF have made (walked right into it)but given they way they have presented themselves they have no one else to blame, they need to be very careful in Dudley

    weester
    Full Member

    Nick – 'Yeah but eh EDL aren't just about extremism – they define extremism as "being muslim" and they are racist as well as islamaphobic as they carry out violence against asians irrespective of religion based on their skin colour – thats a race not a religion prejudice.

    Theya re also violently homophobic and anti-semitic and advocate violence towards anyone who isn't "pure English"

    Whilst I agree the UAF aren't exactly doing the anti-racism movement much good, that doesn't make the EDL any better than the violent racist nazis that they are.'

    I think thats all of it. You see, I will not be forced what to think by anyone, left or right, I will make up my own mind thank you.

    Your clearly a UAF supporter, thats your choice and I can respect choice, but ironically the muslims extremists you have chosen to defend this week either a)don't acknowledge the Hollocost, or b)think it was a good thing. Is that not fascism?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    How far from the left does one have to stray before one gets tarred as a right wing extremist

    I think you mean how far to the right does one need to stray to be classed as a right wing extremists. No one on here is attacking the Conservative party are they? People are suggesting that the EDL are a right wing organisation .. I mean they are called the ENGLISH defence league …was that not a big enough clue for you to deduce what they stand for? Does it require a degree in Politics or a left wing stance to work it out? Another clue was their view that Islam is a cancer …their own words that needs to be treated to preserve the English way of life. Now if you think that is a moderate view then write to call me dave@conservative party and see if he wants to share a platform with them. See if any non racist right wing party will support them? Best of luck
    Clearly they are right wing and of the political spectrum. Here have a picture does that help you see them for what they are? [just google images English defence league] yes the sign does say no more mosques

    Nick
    Full Member

    Weester, how can you deduce that I defend muslim extremists?

    I'm not a UAF supporter, I don't think they are doing a good job of uniting people against fascism at all. I am against fascism in all it's forms though.

    No one is forcing you to do anything, opinions and rhetoric on forums cannot force anything, if you want to support the EDL then that is up to you but have the balls to defend your position rather than trying to deflect it by accusing others of promoting leftist propoganda.

    ctznsmith
    Free Member

    Turning their anger onto police officers they acted with, at times, extreme violence and their actions led to injuries to police officers, protesters and members of the public.

    From the times article…which then lists the injuries as a Policeman with a broken finger, another who was bitten by a police dog (who clearly got confused as to whose side he was on!) and 4 others who it suggests were all there representing Unite Against Facism…sounds extreme.

    No surprise though is it right wing thugs protected by state funded right wing thugs, reported by a right wing press.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    but ironically the muslims extremists you have chosen to defend this week either a)don't acknowledge the Hollocost, or b)think it was a good thing. Is that not fascism?

    Are you suggesting that that is reflective of Islam in general ?
    What perecentage of Mulsims share that view re the holocaust denila or think it was good thing? References would be nice but I suspect you dont need inconvenient things like facts to get in the way of your [ freely choosen] views.
    Disliking the EDL and the BNP is not the same thing at all as supportiung the extremists amongst the Muslim community though it is a falacious argument often presented by right wing extremists in an attempt to discredit their opponents. Intellectually it is a very weak suggestion.

    I notice you have still not said whether you agree with EDL that Islam is a cancer …do share your own freely held views on this subject.

    Badger
    Free Member

    Weeter

    Badger, I've just re-read your post, it reads like typical left wing propaganda and I'm not buying it.

    Eh? Not sure where you got that from…

    I am left wing…. I'm a Liberal Democrat. I believe in liberal democracy and the rights that entails.

    That includes the right to say and think what you like no matter how abhorent as long as you don't forcibly impose your views on others ….. so I'd never dream of telling you what to think. I may try to persuade you of the benefits of my argument with reason and evidence just as much as I will listen to yours.

    I'm not a UAF supporter, although I do support Hope not Hate as I find the BNP and EDL's arguments to be utterly unfounded and based usually on a very twisted view of history (The very definition of "British" or "English" is a farce to start with) as well as corrosive and about as far from my views as possible.

    I don't agree that the BNP or EDL should be banned as I think they're views should be demonstrated to be the bollocks they are. However, I think anyone who commits violence in the name of such views (or any other views for that matter) should be arrested and put before the courts to try their case before a jury of their fellow citizens (thats a liberal principle as well by the way – radical leftism I know, but it's been a foundation principle of this country since 15th June 1215!)

    So my post said I thought the EDL were extremists, I think thats fairly well supported by the evidence they provide on their website.

    I said the EDL are racist on the basis they target non-white (particularly asian) people for violence. Again the evidence for this is the many arrests documents of EDL supporters violently attacking randomn people in the streets, the vast majority of whom are not white skinned but were selected (according to those attacked) because of the colour of their skin not because of any outward signs that they were muslim (how do you tell someone is muslim unless they happen to be carrying a Korran?)

    I said the EDL were homophobic and anti-semitic, again I think this is a matter of record from their leadership with statements attacking (and advocating violence towards) gays and jews.

    I DID NOT say that extremist islam was defensible, in fact I find that as abhorent as I do the EDL, BNP and other Fanatics/extremists.

    A wise man once defined a fanatic: "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.” Extremism is just the addition of violence to fanaticism.

    So I can't see how my post was "typical left wing propaganda" as it was for the most part my opinion based on the evidence I have seen or read.

    You're "not buying it" OK don't, thats your perogative, but you entered the debate so I assumed you were interested in a discussion not just a way to splurge your views onto a screen.

    You still haven't responded to the question about if you agree with the EDL's description of islam as a "cancer." or if you support the EDL. If you do thats again your perogative, just as it's mine to argue against what I see as abhorent, bigotted and socially corrosive views.

    soulwood
    Free Member

    Someone on here said this of the EDL:

    Theya re also violently homophobic and anti-semitic and advocate violence towards anyone who isn't "pure English"

    Which is odd as these are views held by Islamist extremists, except you would replace "pure English" with "pure Islam" I wonder if anybody has pointed this out to them, maybe they could meet for a lively chat about the world and how to solve it over a pint or two followed by a curry?

    Also of interest is that many Arabs and Muslims collaborated with the Germans as they made their way through Africa in WW2 and fought the British and the Allies as they agreed with German ideology, that being anti semitism and the belief of "pure races". Now when any right wing marches happen they get called Nazis by a lot of people who have a lot more in common with their forefathers who supported the Nazis than the people being called Nazis.

    Badger
    Free Member

    Soulwood

    That "someone" was me.

    And as you will read from my post above I am not defending extreme islam… but rather critiquing all extremism, including the EDL AND Islam.

    Why must people assume its a zero sum equation. Just because I don't support one side doesn't make me an adherent of the opposite extreme – the world doesn't work that way.

    Now read what I ACTUALLY wrote rather than assume what you think I wrote!

    Yes extremists of both sides have similar arguments…. extremism usually does use the same forumlaic methods because the most fundamental method of gaining support for a small group view is to delineate yourselves as superior to others and create a percieved threat to coalese your group together. So creating a "them" and an "us" usually means defining yourselves in terms of "purity" of either race, belief, or purpose by disparaging the views of a "dangerous" group of others. So its not suprising that extreme islam and extreme nationalism are similar in their biggoted views.

    Oh and I am well aware that 70 years ago the great grandparents of some people who now practice islam collaborated with the Germans …. but then so did a lot of French, Italian, Turkish, North African, Swiss and yes also British people to name but a few. Does that make those of us that live today the same? No. Just as it doesn't make all modern day Germans the same as their fellow germans of 3 generations ago.
    Why? Because we are not stereotypes, we have free will to make our own judgements and to decide right from wrong for ourselves as individuals…. ask any philosopher or theologian…. ironically most religions identify this as what makes us human and different and usually assign this as proof of a divine influence in our creation.

    Religions are fundamentally tollerant and peaceful… but they also ahve power over peoples thoughts and thats advantagous to those wishing to be powerful and control others…. and its here we depart from religion and belief and into dogma, violence, identity politics and tribalism.

    The most religious thing you can do is be tolerant of others even those you don't like…. ask a christian what "do unto others" really means or a muslim or a jew or a seikh or a zorastrian, they all have the same principle.

    I just choose to take the religion out of it and be tolerant (not because I hate religion but because I can't believe) hence the liberalism.

    So stop falsly representing me as some appologist for extreme islam as I am not.

    Badger
    Free Member

    Oh and by the way…. the idea of pure races was also very well accepted in English academia during the 1920s etc. not just in germany. We're no superior in that regard…. who do you think was the first country in the modern world to use concentration camps and ethnic cleansing? That would the be British – does that make you as bad as the Germans of the 1930s and 40s? Of course not!

    Selectivism in historical outlook is a dangerous thing.

    Hadge
    Free Member

    Them coppers in the picture must be cyclists – they've got Chris King headsets on pmsl 😀

    derek_starship
    Free Member

    Bolton is in lockdown

    Actually, it's in Greater Manchester

    zokes
    Free Member

    Actually, it's in Greater Manchester

    Actually, it's not.

    Badger
    Free Member

    Errr…

    Actually it is

    Map of Greater Manchester from Papillon Graphics' Virtual Encyclopedia of Greater Manchester website:

    zokes
    Free Member

    Errr…

    Actually it is:

    Nope, it's its own unitary authority, and geographically, it's in Lancashire

    whippersnapper
    Free Member

    there's many types of geographical boundary zokes. And if it's a unitary authority then it is not within a county.

    No surprise though is it right wing thugs protected by state funded right wing thugs, reported by a right wing press

    heh heh, living up to your name 😉

    zokes
    Free Member

    "I've come here for an argument"

    whippersnapper
    Free Member

    give us yer best then 😈

    zokes
    Free Member

    "That's not an argument!"

    whippersnapper
    Free Member

    Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor

    zokes
    Free Member

    Thank you!

    Talkemada
    Free Member

    A friend and I met some ladies from Wilmslow once. They were nice.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    I absolutely agree with Badger, an extremist is a dangerous thing, irrespective of what political or religeous ideology they espouse. I once read somewhere a quote, can't remember by who, which stated;
    “A fascist is an individual, or small group of individuals, who seek to impose a religeous or political ideology on the majority by the use of force”.
    The ethnic or racial background of a person is irrelevant to me, I refuse to accept anyone trying to force me to adopt a point of view that has hatred as its foundation.

    konabunny
    Free Member

    That's a completely shit definition of fascism because it describes practically anyone that uses force to achieve a political aim as a fascist, which makes the words "fascist" so broadly applicable and makes "fascism" so devoid of distinctive ideology that they become analytically useless. In fact, it would mean that by, say, 1941 the SS would not be considered fascists in exterminating Jews (because they were not a small group of individuals and weren't acting against the majority) but the Warsaw Uprisers or Bielski Partisans would be considered fascist because they were seeking to impose a political ideology (that Jews shouldn't be exterminated) on the majority using violence.

    I think you need to go back to a definition of fascism that considers what the essential "building block" of society is (individual, nation, country, class, religious community), who owns the means of production (the state, entrepreneurs, mobilised labour), attitudes to religion and how stylish the uniforms are.

Viewing 29 posts - 41 through 69 (of 69 total)

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