[Closed] Almost as alarming as the trams - Scottish Gamekeepers Association

Wow, wonder what the 'exit strategy' looks like.

Given the significant number of protected birds of prey that are shot every year around grouse moors perhaps the gameskeepers assume every species is as myopic as their members when it comes to identifying targets.

Should they not be more worried that it is clearly targeting the clergy ? One for the conspiracist thread...

There are reports of buzzards which have obviously undergone this desensitisation and this has resulted in them attacking people

& why would gamekeepers be concerned exactly? Do they want the small children for themselves?
Or as usual with gamekeepers of large estates with many guns, is it down to financial reasons?

Buzzards do attack people.

Clearly alarmist rubbish. I have been underneath nesting buzzards before and whilst they were not happy and made it clear, they were a damn site less aggressive than bloody herring gulls.

I have worked on estates before. You would not believe how much people pay to shoot grouse. That is were this nonsense stems from.

Aye, complete rubbish...just a group of people looking out for their livelihoods (which is fair enough) but are coming across as complete eejits!

How the hell do you corner a Sea Eagle? I've heard of Buzzards attacking people near Selkirk.

I reckon that as long as you're wearing a helmet and the Sea Eagle has already had 1g of protein per Kg of body weight, then getting on a tram across the new Forth Crossing should see you safe.

There is buzzard in Yair forest (Selkirk) that is locally famous for attacking people, it is not just defensive, it will chase you a good 1/2 mile along the trail. Several local riders have lost flesh to it.

Birds do not attack people, they only defend themselves/nests

If you get close to a nest most birds will try to decoy you away or resort to a physical attack.

This includes geese which are well known for it.

The truth is grouse fly downwind normally, unless there is a bird of prey in the air and this annoys estates.

i think that shooting grouse although a lot of money is actually quite good value in consideration of the costs

In fairness I think they've got a point on the confusion thing though.
[img] [/img]

Can we organise a Gamekeeper shoot on moorland somewhere please. That I would happliy pay to take part in.
As far as a Sea Eagle attacking a child is concerned, why on earth would they? They're [b]fish[/b] Eagles, they mainly hunt fish, like Ospreys, which are [b]fish[/b] Hawks. The clue is in the name; there are few children to be found in the middle of sea Lochs.

Well, they cannot tell the difference between an fluffy bunny and a clergyman....
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-14631018 [/url]

As far as a Sea Eagle attacking a child is concerned, why on earth would they? They're fish Eagles, they mainly hunt fish, like Ospreys, which are fish Hawks. The clue is in the name; there are few children to be found in the middle of sea Lochs.

The Erne( another name for them) will mainly eat birds I think with a few fish and a few mammals. Likes carrion as well hence the use by gamekeepers of poisoned baits to kill them.

Even so they did well this year raising a good few young. The gamekeepers did get a few tho

Really TJ?

I've just looked through the official report for 2010, which are the latest figures, published just a couple of weeks ago - and there was only one recorded incident of pesticides found in Sea Eagle carcasses, which is subsequently the subject of an ongoing police investigation

So, I call bullshit on your statement, and unless you can back up your claims, I'll keep calling bullshit until you do!

Indeed,gamekeepers, whilst I understand their motives, get pretty heavily smashed for getting rid of birds of prey, poisoning or otherwise.

When they do get caught, especially with high profile birds, its public prosecution time.

So I would not suggest gamekeepers 'did get a few'

ZE - TJ was talking about this years figures 2011.
If you know the right folk, you don't need to trawl teh interwebz for reports to find the facts.

So, I call bullshit on your statement, and unless you can back up your claims, I'll keep calling bullshit until you do!

Bit of an overreaction there Zulu-Eleven, still I guess it is to be expected of you. TJ merely claimed that gamekeepers 'get a few', even you admit of a suspected poisoning last year.

Yes really. Sea eagles have been poisoned and many birds are each year Glenogil estates worth naming and shaming as their record is shameful

3 ernes that we know of illegally killed on the estate in the last few years.

http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/category/2011-persecution-incidents/

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Sea-eagle-found-poisoned-.5995940.jp

http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/record-penalty-for-poisoning-at-glenogil-estate-angus/

http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/2010/01/27/scottish-sea-eagle-poisoning-investigation-results-made-public-after-5-months/

last few years

Thats not what you claimed though, is it 🙄

So, you can you support your claims then TJ, or not?

Can you show me any examples of a poisoned sea eagle, or a sea eagle shown to be killed by a gamekeeper, in 2011 ?

I don't think it needs to come down to an argument. Grouse shooting last time I worked on an estate (20 yrs ago) was 14k per [i]wee[/i]k.

From an estates point of view anything that predates a grouse is a problem.

There is a motive to kill grouse predators. Its obviously wrong, I am not saying I happens on all estates, but there you have it.

Surprising though this may seem to some, this forum is not a court of law and thus it is possible for people to potentially present knowledge without supporting evidence.
So for instance, it is hypothetically possible that I may know of a gamekeeper who may have killed some buzzards because a group of them may have started predating on pheasant chicks.
Had this hypothetical event taken place, I would not be able to offer any evidence that it had occurred other than hearsay, but it's worth remembering -
'Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence'

A forum is an exchange of ideas, not a bloody court of law

IanMunro - TJ made a claim, I asked him to back it up as I think he's bullshitting, and jumping on a "gamekeepers kill eagles bandwagon", that exaggerates the problem far beyond what actually takes place.

I've got no evidence to prove that he was, of course - but then, I know a bloke that says he was abducted by aliens, and I've got no evidence to prove that he wasn't 😉

Unless TJ can back up his claim, I'll stand my ground, and say he's bullshitting...

I know a bloke that says he was abducted by aliens

Zulu-Eleven is that your guru Dan Hannan ?

don't worry - I ain't falling for zulus piffle. Game keepers regularly poison raptors all over the UK, quite a few sea eagle have been killed. One found dead in January this year with pesticides in its liver in angus

It clearly does not happen on all estates but some persist in killing raptors willfully.

Detective Inspector Ally Waghorn said: "It is an absolute disgrace that the use of pesticides to kill what are seen by some as pest species continues in Scotland.

Trail of illegal poisonings that leads to shooting estate

PREVIOUS incidents of suspected wildlife crime on or close to Glenogil Estate include:

May 2006: Suspected rabbit poisoned bait found – tests by Science and Advice for Scottish Agriculture lab confirmed it had been laced with outlawed pesticide carbofuran.

June 2006: Bait found laced with carbofuran, also found on equipment and vehicles. Estate owner John Dodd subsequently had £107,000 withdrawn from his single farm payment subsidy by the Scottish Government. He is appealing against this.

November 2007: Tayside Police informed [b]a white-tailed eagle had been shot by a Glenogil estate employee[/b]. No carcase was found, but the bird, fitted with a radio transmitter, is still missing.

May 2008: [b]A white-tailed eagle[/b] known as White G was found dead by a neighbouring landowner. It had been poisoned with carbofuran and other pesticides.

Three days later, Tayside Police and RSPB staff found the carcase of a buzzard lying next to the Glenogil Estate boundary fence. It had been poisoned.

Carcase of a hare was found to have been laced with same chemicals that killed eagle.

October 2008: A meat bait is found on a fence post within Glenogil Estate, laced with an illegal chemical mix.
d
August 2009: [b]Dead white-tailed eagle found on estate, poisoned with carbofuran.[/b]

March 2009: Two dead buzzars found on the estate. Both birds had been poisoned.

 

One found dead in January this year with pesticides in its liver in angus

From SASA

[i]This bird was found dead behind a stock fence near to an area of forestry. [b]The analytical investigation failed to provide any evidence to implicate pesticide poisoning[/b] but confirmed the presence of low residues of bromadiolone, brodifacoum and difenacoum in liver tissue.[/i]

TJ, For the sake of clarity - you claimed that:

Even so they did well this year raising a good few young. The gamekeepers did get a few tho

So, once again TJ - can you back up your claims, where are the "few" that the gamekeepers "got" or were you bullshitting?

I suggest you look at the spreadsheet on here zulu.

last year 4 golden eagles and 1 sea eagle confirmed as poisoned.

http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/category/2011-persecution-incidents/ <

Whoa there, thats [b]Last[/b] Year TJ!

You claimed that

Even so they did well [u]this year[/u] raising a good few young. The gamekeepers[u] did get a few tho[/u]

So, come on, can you back up your claim, or not?

don't worry - I ain't falling for zulus piffle.

But you are. You're responding to him in exactly the way he wants. Just ignore or ridicule him. Did you know TJ, that Zulu-Eleven recently accused me of posting the 'most racist' post he had ever seen on STW ? ....I kid you not.

Argggh, I tried to say it before. You can argue off spreadsheets if you want.

Birds of prey are killed deliberately by humans in some instances, you don't need an autopsy ffs. Its economics as bloody usual.

I have heard the same shit from fisherman killing seals, basically any predator that goes after human prey is doomed.

he did ernie? ridiculous even by his semi detached standards

'most racist'

No, I didn't - and if you can show me where I used the exact quote you've claimed above - 'most racist' - I'll give you fifty pounds 🙄

While everyone is furiously looking for that quote and the 50 notes, I just wanted to say

THERE IS NO DANGER OF SEA EAGLES SWOOPING YOUR CHILDREN FROM THEIR BUGGIES

SHOP AS USUAL

he did ernie? ridiculous even by his semi detached standards

Yup. And I've just checked, it was also the 'most offensive' thing ever written on STW !

This is the actual quote : [i]"I honestly think that that is the most patronising, offensive, racist thing I've ever seen written on STW". [/i]

Strangely enough I wasn't banned for posting the 'most offensive and racist' post ever on STW.

Heechee - what about if you have them in bunny outfits?

looks like ernie is £50 up so far...

I see you've revised your claim on what I said Ernie - I suppose my money is safe 😉

Would that be where [u]you told us that you know what its like being Black[/u] Ernie?

Enjoy the car crash all:

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-value-has-a-human-life#post-2879672

nope.. ernie's deffo £50 up..

and monsieur zulu is coming across as using a BBB defense as a last resort in the face of overwhelming support for the opposition..

I'm still waiting for you to back up your claims on the missing poisoned Sea Eagles TJ

ernie_lynch - Member

Zulu-Eleven recently accused me of posting the 'most racist' post he had ever seen on STW ? ....I kid you not.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

'most racist'

No, I didn't - and if you can show me where I used the exact quote you've claimed above - 'most racist' - I'll give you fifty pounds

Zulu-Eleven - Member
I honestly think that that is [b]the most[/b] patronising, offensive, [b]racist[/b] thing I've ever seen written on STW.

Seems pretty clear cut to me. You owe Ernie £50

Zulu-Eleven - Member

I'm still waiting for you to back up your claims on the missing poisoned Sea Eagles TJ

Can you read? Click on links? Clearly not

Morning TJ, early start? I'm in your corner for this one. There have been a number of estate workers done for poisoning raptors recently. I'm not at liberty to give any more details than that really, but it's definitely going on, where I am at least.

Morning - early indeed - off to work shortly.

There have been a number of estate workers done for poisoning raptors recently. I'm not at liberty to give any more details than that really, but it's definitely going on, where I am at least.

Well I hope you are prepared to be told by the fantasist with the call sign :

[i]"I call bullshit on your statement, and unless you can back up your claims, I'll keep calling bullshit until you do"[/i]

It'll hurt ernie, but I'll cope. At least I'll be in good company.

Yep, in the absence of Dan Hannan's Number 1 Fan, I'm calling bullshit on any claims. And you know what? I'll keep calling bullshit until you back them up.

I believe the SGA that a small young child is at risk from an eagle.

Those who disbelieve them are welcome to place their unattended toddler out on the lawn in places where eagles fly...

[url=

clip[/url] (not for the squeamish)

check the comments too for some good balanced moral outrage

There have been a number of estate workers done for poisoning raptors recently

But that's [u]Not[/u] what TJ claimed, was it?

Do people have a problem with understanding that

[i]There have been a number of estate workers done for poisoning raptors recently[/i]

is not the same thing as saying that

[i][u]This year[/u] gamekeepers killed "a few" [ie, more than one] White tailed Sea eagles [/i]

Both are specific statements, but they're really not exactly the same claim, are they - the first, is undoubtedly true, there [i]have[/i] been a number of prosecutions - the second claim, the one made by TJ, is an exaggeration, and there is nothing to back it up, its simply not true, and I think that if you're going to make a claim that castigates and criticises a group of people, you should be able to back it up.

I've been through the data, and the last recorded case of what TJ claims to be a common occurrence was a single case from over a year ago - as a result of which, I think he's not telling the truth, I'm not implying a motive for him making it up, people can decide on that for themselves...

Now, TJ could have accepted that he was exaggerating a little, he could have accepted that his claim was a little over the top - but he decided instead to charge on straight up the middle... he even chose to "imply" that the only known Sea Eagle casualty this year [u]was[/u] a poisoning case, despite the SACA categorically stating that it was not! Never back down, eh?

Tj repeatedly 'sets himself up' as an omnipotent distributor of 'facts' and I think its perfectly fair for me to call bullshit, where TJ is bullshitting.

Do people have a problem with understanding that

I think what most people have a problem with is not that TeeJ might overestimate raptors killed by gamekeepers by one or two. Rather it's your blundering into the thread with all the grace of Dan HanNAN's fat arse just to fight with him. As ever, you derailed the thread and frankly, this effort seems a tad desperate.

Thing is Dan-HanNAN's-Number-1-Fan, noone really cares whether TeeJ has overestimated the numbers by one, two or three. We all know it happens to a greater or lesser extent, and that it is wrong. You couldn't give two shits either - you're only concerned with arguing the toss over the difference between "one", "two" and "several" with TeeJ (who's at work by the way). Why the desperation? It's a bit embarrassing really.

I could say this is the most trivial, desperate, attention seeking thing I've [i]ever[/i] seen on STW...but to be honest, I still haven't got over ernie's most racist, offensive post ever...and I've been uncomfortable with the use of hyperbole since I read it. Has he been banned for it yet? I've reported it multiple times now. 😯

Franky Dan-HanNAN's-Number-1-Fan, you've been PWNed here. Let it lie, you're just embarrassing yourself.

never mind all that dd, why aren't you heading down the m5 for the stw dartmoor ride today ?

No, as someone who went to college and studies with a load of gamekeepers, on a Game management course, and who worked as a gamekeeper himself, and counts a number of gamekeepers as friends, I cannot see [b]any[/b] reason why I'd show interest in the thread, or take offence at TJ's claims...

As for the comments on Ernie's post , I'd suggest you learn about the comma, and what it means in a sentence, particularly its effect on separating clauses 🙄 Now Just think what Ernie would have said if the evil Dan Hannan told us that he "knew what it was like being black"

you've been PWNed here. Let it lie, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Indeed - couldn't help wondering if his favourite film is "A Few Good Men", or how long Ernie will have to wait for his £50.

I'd suggest you learn about the comma, and what it means in a sentence, particularly its effect on separating clauses

Ha ha. Jesus, mate, honestly, leave, it. ****ing, commas, now? You're, getting, more, desperate, by, the, post. Just, leave, it, now, Dan. When, you've, been, pwned, stop, digging. Actually, no, keep, going. It's, hilarious. 😀

Zulu-Eleven I'd suggest you learn about the comma, and :roll:it means in a sentence, particularly its effect on separating clauses

What about a full stop?

TandemJeremy

Even so they did well this year raising a good few young[b][u].[/u] [/b]The gamekeepers did get a few tho

🙄 😆

Gamekeepers repeatedly kill raptors and its a major issue. The favorite way is pesticide laden baits. Dozens of known incidents each year, many prosecutions over the years. some have even got jailtime. Dozens of known incidents a year and thats a tiny % of the total incidents. Glenogil estate has lost all its EU subsidy for its actions and other estates will follow if they continue to kill raptors. Scum pure and simple

My dad was involved for many years in prosecuting gamekeepers for this

What did your Dad do?

Should be "involved in trying to get prosecutions......"
Various things in the voluntary environmental lobby - from chairing stuff to organising protection for nest sites to trying to persuade the politicos and cops to take wildlife crime seriously. Serious senior man - but a pragmatist not a fundamentalist. Goes back to the 70s when we were trying to save and nurture the last few peregrines and ospreys. I used to spend part of my summers guarding peregrine nests.

Fines used to be a few quid if you got prosecutions. Now gamekeepers have gone to jail and it has costs estates hundreds of thousands. Hopefully an estate owner will do some real time - that will really sort 'em out.

last few peregrines

I had no idea numbers were so low, I've just checked and apparently 1,402 breeding pairs at the present, according to the RSPB.

I've got a very good mate who is a pretty successful pigeon racer and whinges about peregrines, hinting darkly that he "knows what to do". Totally unacceptable imo. And the geezer is a real animal/wildlife lover and all - I've known him to go out of his way to save an injured wild bird or quickly and humanely dispatch it to avoid unnecessary suffering . Unfortunately champion racing pigeons are worth a lot of money.

And I remain hugely unconvinced concerning the guilt of peregrines - pigeon racers are always looking for excuses why their birds don't come home, some of which are quite frankly pathetic imo. I suspect that in the case of peregrines, like most predators, they go for the easiest kill - which ain't racing pigeons. So whilst a peregrine might have no problem taking a racing pigeon, why go for something which flies high at 50/70 mph when there are far more slow easy to kill pigeons ?

Peregrine do eat racing pigeons. The racing pigeons fly straight and fast but the peregrine is faster :-). Wild pigeons have some savvy and try to dodge - thats what I was told.

I don't know how many pairs of peregrines it was down to (dozens I think)but it was considered worth putting "guards" on nests to stop egg collectors and pigeon fanciers from taking the eggs. Peregrins can top 100 mph

Raptor conservation / reintroduction is a real success story in scotland - it realy bugs me that he gamekeepers kill and appreciable number still. enough of the ea eagles to make a difference. Killing the white tailed eagles is just wrong. its a fragile marginal population.

Off course there is another aspect to this. Is the effort and money spent on a few pairs of big birds worth it? The sustainable population of Sea Eagles in Scotland will always be a bit marginal

The racing pigeons fly straight and fast but the peregrine is faster

Not necessarily. Racing pigeons can fly faster on the horizontal than a peregrine, and for much much longer. Peregrines are only faster on a dive, and racing pigeons tend to fly very much higher than ordinary pigeons anyway. All in all racing pigeons have got to be harder work for a peregrine, so why bother when there are far more than enough slow easy pigeons ?

Pigeon racers mostly shun white racing pigeons on the grounds that they are more easily spotted by hawks/falcons, complete bollox imo. Peregrines can easily spot a pigeon whatever colour it is, and they certainly wouldn't go for one a couple of miles away because its white colour has grabbed its attention.

The racing fraternity is full of myths and old wives tales. I'm sure that peregrines occasionally take a racing pigeon but I don't believe it's the problem that some reckon it is. Some pigeons just get lost or hit objects, and don't come home, it doesn't meaning that a peregrine has taken it or that it's flown into someone else's loft and been "stolen"......another common claim.

Wild pigeons have some savvy

[i]All[/i] pigeons are unbelievably thick........believe me.

Ok - comparatively savvy 🙂

Think there was a study recently on the Peregrines nesting on Derby Cathedral that found despite being surrounded by town/feral pigeons (easy meat you'd think for a Peregrine) their diet was quite varied and included amongst other common species there was Oystercatcher, Snipe, Woodcock, Lapwing..... Made interesting reading considering the town pigeons on offer a short distance from the nest

myths and old wives tales

A bit like some of the discussion in this thread.

Take away Gamekeepers and you would lose a lot of raptors as the habitat they require is one that is maintained by the keepers. Some good reading here,

http://www.gwct.org.uk/about_us/news/1270.asp

Like anything else there are good gamekeepers and bad, good estate owners and bad. The good far outway the bad but it's the bad that attract all the headlines. And of course only the gamekeepers would put down poison bait, you'd never get people that are anti shooting doing this sort of thing to entrap keepers. You might also want to spare a thought for keepers that live in houses that come with the job. It might not be so easy to do what is morally right when you face losing your job and your home.

A 'gamekeeper shoot', classy 🙄

myths and old wives tales

"A bit like some of the discussion in this thread".

What "myths and old wives tales" are there on this thread then ?

Is this one of them : [i]"you'd never get people that are anti shooting doing this sort of thing to entrap keepers"[/i] ?

The all keepers bad myth that is encouraged by threads like this.
"you'd never get people that are anti shooting doing this sort of thing to entrap keepers" ? Are you telling me that nobody would ever try anything like that?

The all keepers bad myth that is encouraged by threads like this.

Who said that all keepers are bad ?

Sounds like a myth to me.

Ok, point taken. How ever comments like,

Game keepers regularly poison raptors

Gamekeepers repeatedly kill raptors

Scum pure and simple

Stephen - I did make the point its not all estates earlier. However the grouse shooting estates are the worst on the whole and you need to read up a bit more about Langholm

However its a fact that gamekeepers regularly kill raptors with poisoned baits. You only have to look at the stats and the prosecutions - which will only be the tip of the iceberg

"you'd never get people that are anti shooting doing this sort of thing to entrap keepers" ? Are you telling me that nobody would ever try anything like that?

And that is utter nonsense. Find one shred of evidence that has ever happened.

And that is utter nonsense. Find one shred of evidence that has ever happened.

[Ahem]

[i]Surprising though this may seem to some, this forum is not a court of law and thus it is possible for people to potentially present knowledge without supporting evidence.[/i]

and

'[i]Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence'[/i]

[/Ahem] 😉

it is possible for people to potentially present knowledge without supporting evidence.

stevenmenmuir didn't [i]"present knowledge"[/i] he simply threw in the suggestion as a possibility.

Here is an example of [i]presenting knowledge without evidence[/i] :

thegreatape - Member

There have been a number of estate workers done for poisoning raptors recently. I'm not at liberty to give any more details than that really, but it's definitely going on, where I am at least.

Why don't you pay attention Zulu-Eleven ?

Instead of spending your time looking for commas.