The internals can be swapped as the shells are the same, so somebody could have swapped them…..unlikely.

Didn’t YoHandsome off this forum do exactly that? 😎

breninbeener
He has been a little quiet after his commuting in skinsuit on cyclepath to get KOM tales

Can’t swap in the 370 freehub into the 350 body seals don’t match, can only turn the 370 body into ratchet drive, but ratchet drive is overhyped – 54t is fragile, they’re draggy and all sound like crap as they create a oscillating sound BZZZzzzZZZ (more pronounced with road use, have a listen: https://streamable.com/qqrve)

Highly recommend the new Newmen Fade hubs (German), have been very happy with them, fast engagement, light, sleek and sound great (not too loud). Hope also works at a similar price point.

I did get one KOM on a cyclepath in a skinsuit.. winter is not the time for KOMs however ;_;

m wondering if the polarization in polarized training is really that important, why not just do HIIT and rest?

Quite a lot of people have tried that, and it comes into fashion every now and again, but the reality is that it gives you a couple weeks of feeling great but long term improvement is limited, plateaus really quickly. This has been shown by a ton of practical experience. I’ve had a VO2 max tested at 73 ml/kg/min when I was younger very good at running, and that came mostly of volume and a limited amount intervals. The training looked very typical for the world class people I knew.

Would love to see some studies on it, seems like an obvious control group that has been left out or maybe it has been proven less effective in previous work. We’ll see how my time crunched 2:1 base training : 30s HIIT intervals faire.

I tend to go out at 300-400% FTP and try to hold 200% FTP in the 30 sec intervalls.. no pain no gain? hehe

Go all out, then hang on for dear life as you hit the wall in each one – isn’t that how adaptation happens? ;) I would lean toward going harder and finishing less reps. Once you’re cooked and can only do 300w all out you’ve probably reached diminishing returns and I’d keep the HIIT part 30 min tops as your heart muscle could start getting damaged going beyond that (your heart antioxidant defense gets depleted etc).

3×13 30/15 with 3 min recovery.

Damn @13thfloormonk so you’ll basically be close to peak HR for each 13 “rep” set? Seems extreme, is that much time at VO2 max really necessary?

Figure I’ll for now (until I have more time) do my two VO2 max intervals pr week preceded by strength work and some max 60% FTP/HR 30 min sets when I’m in an unproductive slump (e.g. after dinner) if anything it feels good mentally and doesn’t get me “too high” to work afterwards.

I’m wondering if the polarization in polarized training is really that important, why not just do HIIT and rest? I get the feeling a lot of studies are comparing overtraining with too much sweet spot or too much HIIT with non-overtrained polarized regimens.

Would love to see a study comparing polarized training (high vol “baseline” zone 2 + HIIT) with only the HIIT component of it as we know baseline “”junk miles”” alone doesn’t infer much benefit at least not in trained individuals.

Right now I have ridiculously little time to work out, about 1 hour for cardio and 1 hour for strength, so I’m thinking 3 workouts per week.

VO2 max HIIT 20 min x 2, Sweet spot 20 min all with 20 min strength work before each session – hope cycling to the store counts as recovery riding, then once some time frees up hopefully in march throw in some outdoor rides and throw in some Z2 recovery rides in-between whenever I find time.

https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/polarized-training-vs-sweet-spot-dylan-johnson-video/49280/291

Thanks for the input, I don’t buy the fragility argument and think you could get pretty good FTP results from just 30s HIIT BUT agree that polarizing your training and including e.g. sweet spot and recovery weeks will be better than pure HIIT, in a study with elite athletes HIIT combined with low intensity training and recovery weeks did best (polarized training) followed by pure HIIT (but perhaps not if factoring in time cost efficacy).

“In this study of elite athletes performing HIIT, HVT, THR or POL training, POL results in the greatest improvements in key variables of endurance performance (VO2peak, TTE, V/Ppeak, and V/P4). HIIT led to a decrease in body mass and less pronounced increases in VO2peak compared with previous findings using short term (1–2 weeks) HIIT, suggesting that a 9 week HIIT should be applied with care. Exclusive training with THR or HVT did not lead to further improvements in endurance performance related variables in well-trained athletes.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912323/

and here’s a good general resource https://www.wattkg.com/cycling-science/

@wbo there are longer studies, I’m not too concerned.

@whitestone

Are those studies on well trained athletes or beginners?

Generally intermediates, not pros not beginners. Turns out someone did a meta review of dozens of such studies in “2020 Hall et al. The Effects of Sprint Interval Training on Physical Performance A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis”.

HIIT fitness is somewhat “fragile” in that it doesn’t last long. Also doing it for too long can lead to burnout. I’d do just the VO2max workout plus a couple of Sweet Spot sessions then as you get close to when you want to attempt those KOMs swap in the sprint workout.

Sources for the fragile claim? I agree the two VO2 max sessions are most important, when it comes to KOMs they’re clearly more effective than the sprint intervalls which are not really needed for anything TBH. I’ll save the sprint training for training for the road (have a fanbike not a turbo trainer) and throw in some squats instead.

Also tried Squirt and other stuff, the all weather teflon once really hits a good balance..guess I’ll give their ceramic one a go ;p

2019 “Combined effects of very short “all out” efforts during sprint and resistance training on physical and physiological adaptations after 2 weeks of training”

Perhaps the most interesting study, as they compared a pure squatting regimen (SQUAT), with HIIT sprints then squatting (CONCURRENT) and HIIT sprints only (SPRINT). Work sets were 6-12 of 5s on 24s off sets, 6 sessions total over 2 weeks, volume of squatting was time matched with sprinting.

VO2max significantly increased in SPRINT 7% and CONCURRENT 6% only (it non significantly increased 4% in the squat group however).

Squat 1RM max improved 10% in SQUAT and 6% in CONCURRENT with 0% increase in SPRINT.

Countermovement jump increased 9% in SQUAT (significant), 4% in CONCURRENT and actually decreased 3% in the sprint group albeit non significantly for the two latter groups.

This tells me that 5s sprints don’t increase explosive leg strength, it may even hurt your jumping ability – but they don’t hamper strength gains from concurrent training much either. The ideal “bang for you buck” workout might be combining a quick squat session with 20 minutes of HIIT sprints. The study found the most overall improvement in the CONCURRENT group.

Have you thought about getting down to the velodrome

No time for that live too far away :>

So how are you going to do it when you don’t want to do it?

Motivation is not a problem, I like to suffer, just have an extremely hectic year coming up with 2 jobs + full time studies :>

STUDIES

2010 “10 or 30-s sprint interval training bouts enhance both aerobic and anaerobic performance”
They did 30s on 4 min off VS 10s on 4 min off and 10s on 2 min off for a total of 6 workouts with 5 sets pr workout over 2 weeks (not a lot!). Unfortunately they did not test peak power output.

TT performance increased 30:4 (5.2%), 10:4 (3.5%), and 10:2 (3.0%).
VO2max increased 30:4 (9.3%) and 10:4 (9.2%) and 10:2 no change.
Wingate 30s peak power increased 30:4 (9.5%), 10:4 (8.5%), and 10:2 (4.2%).

2018 “Adaptive Changes After 2 Weeks of 10-s Sprint Interval Training With Various Recovery Times”
Same as above but 10s sprints with 1 or 4 minutes recovery.

VO2max increased 10:1 13.6% and 10:4 11.9% (significant but not significant between groups).
Wingate 30s power increased around 7% for both groups.
Wingate 30s end power output 10:1 +10.8% and 10:4 no change (so the 10:1 group may have increased endurance through VO2 max more with a higher end power output whereas the 10:4 group increased the initial power output of the 30s interval more, in other words the 10:1 group may have developed type IIa muscle fibers more and the 10:4 group might have stimulated IIb more?).

The longer ride would ideally be outdoors with some high rpm form sprints and mashing (can’t do those on my stationary fanbike).

@andyr Not included any rest weeks but figure they will be auto included when things get in the way of workouts.

Wonder if I should perhaps do leg strength work instead of the sprint HIIT or just do some squats before and perhaps cut it down to 20 min so 5 sets of intervalls pr set instead of 6. 20 minutes of HIIT should be plenty?

Remember it’s actually 72-77% of your FTP and if you’re not used to time trialing type efforts it’s probably closer to 72% than 75%, so I’d take the wattage you got to on the ramp test and multiply it by 0.72 to get a number close to your real FTP (if you can handle the psychological suffering a real 60 min test entails).

I got to 475W for 14 seconds which translates to an FTP of around 320W at 86 kg which seems ballpark correct.

Simply getting a pair of oversized winter gloves and wearing relatively thin early winter/autumn gloves under may be the way to go if not going electric.

There are even lobster overgloves for sale but good luck finding any in stock – same for the planet X lobsters :/

Got a pair of £5 eur incl shipping electric heating pads that connect to USB (I have a USB battery bank as is) and warm up to 35C, each will fit on top of my hands, might glue them to my silk liners if they work well – combined with the galibiers that should do the trick.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/USB-Electric-Heating-Vest-Jacket-Pads-for-DIY-Heated-Thermal-Clothing/254779840203

Or If you want to faff around a bit more and wait longer you can get heating elements that go down the fingers.

Galibier Barrier Deep Winter in a size bigger than needed.
A pair of silk liner gloves underneath.

Not enough at sub 1 degrees road riding for me, but strangely after 1 hour my fingers seem to warm up (after holding them like a fist in the glove a lot to avoid frostbite :p).

Curious if there are any significantly better non-battery powdered options out there. Keis heated liners plus batteries will set you back around £200.

Terrible missed opportunity to do the robot-dance, we have a humorless future ahead of us..

’d have though that finned pads could make things worse as the pads will not get as hot.

There was another thread last week involving a theory that caliper placement might be an issue, though that one was also regarding shitty water coming off mudguards and flowing onto the rotors.

We shall see, the finns also look like they could protect the pads a bit if the grime comes from above (from mudguards or just grime hitting the the fork and falling onto the caliper). Worth a shot.

Thanks for your persistence YoHandsome, by this point I had just given up and gone back to rim brakes, but it’s good to know there might be hope out there for those of us who can’t tolerate squealing! 😀

Haha thanks, I’m honestly pretty pleased right now, will see if finned pads make any difference.. next up, 3D printed caliper covers ;p

My cure was to do a small detour to a decent hill and pedal down it furiously while braking. This weekly “maintenance” was all that was required to restore silent braking.

Yeah, do some hard breaking it squeaking usually goes away with sintered pads at least. Baking the pads at 400C for 20 minutes help for some (diesel should evaporate then, mineral oil will start evaporating above 177C). A propane torch until they stop smoking should also work..

We all ride on roads with crap on but it’s not really an issue. If your brakes are rubbing it sounds like a set up issue more than anything else.

Fix your alignment issue and just get used to the squealing or for organic pads.

It’s not a setup/alignment issue, the rotors are 100% bang on – it’s a clearance issue: fresh pads and low clearance leads to rubbing if dirt gets on the calipers or pads. Heard some calipers have better clearance e.g. hopes relative to 105s. Not a big issue for me and it’ll get better as the pads wear down.

A contaminated pad (ime) will never stop properly again or stop squeeking no matter how much temperature you get into it.

If just from road grime sintered pads seem to never stop working and will stop squeaking right away, if you spilled mineral oil on them it might be a differert story and you’d want to bake it off andor sand them down.

Rim brakes pad are typically rubber, disc brake pads are not, so not necessarily, really depends on the pad compound and rim.

Covers are a joke, but cleaning will not fix shrieking brakes or rubbing from crud every wet ride.

Not enough!!

Hambini tells the truth (he also mentioned that machining the top hat was the hardest bit)

Made a flowchart I posted on reddit/medicine earlier about how to talk to anti vaxxers (from a doctor’s POV) ;p

He’s 4×10 kg heaver so 4×5% = 20%. It’s ballpark correct even when factoring in the probable height and in turn drag difference, look:

Here’s 1927 watts for 25 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRsMG46z0I

Get an e-bike with a hidden motor and humiliate them.

Haven’t found a way to avoid it, but in my experience sintered pads are actually quieter than organics that get contaminated much quicker.

I realized that Remco has beat Ganna 3 out of 3 times, and it’s said his FTP is up to 420w so that makes sense.

Ballpark correct based on the equation:

Power needed to go up a hill (watts) = gravitational constant 9.8 (m/sec^2) * gradient in %/100 * total mass (kg) * speed on the road (m/s)

To take a more realistic comparison, comparing Ganna (rider 1) assuming his FTP is 480 watts to a lighter shorter 65 kg rider, it actually looks like a smaller rider like Remco _could_ beat him if they can hit 400W FTP due to aero advantages (Cd the same, A calculated from height and weight).

Comparing a 20 km/h climb it actually looks like you’d need to get well above 10 degrees for Remco to gain an advantage over Ganna.

The conclusion is still likely right even though the details are let’s say grossly simplified. 700 watts for 5 minutes is so insane and there’s no way this person also wouldn’t have a beastly FTP (you need good endurance for 5 min!).

People focus too much on watts pr kg..

That’s why yohandsome’s 700W for 5 minutes guy couldn’t win the TdF.

Let’s make some guesstimates here. Conservatively estimating FTP to be 80% of 5 minute power = 560W and bodyweight 100 kg.

Let’s say the avg gradient of de tour is 2.5%, then for each 10 kgs weight loss a rider has to do 5% less work. A 60 kg rider would need to do 20% less work than our 100 kg beast, to best him they would need a 450W FTP.

The beast’s watts pr kg is still just a meager 5.6, whereas the 450W FTP 60 kg climbing god would need to hit 7.5 watts pr kg to beat him.

Watts pr kg only makes a big difference on steep hills and is a silly way to compare riders’ capabilities outside of pure hill climbing.

I see the fastest time up the Alpe du Zwift is 28mins at 503W.

But it’s not by people verified on zwiftpower? so it doesn’t count IMO. Not sure how much faith id put into those results, could have hacked trainers, use trainers that give watts too easily etc. I haven’t seen anyone getting close to those numbers on zwiftpower and we’re looking at the top guys up to 100 kg.

An absolute machine like Filippo Ganna will manage 500W for 10 minutes but his power output is on a different level to even most of the other pros https://www.strava.com/activities/3567142726/analysis/5290/5871

525 watts for 13 minutes actually, beast.

Ah yes so 700W for 1 min 48 seconds – that’s something, but yeah probably not the best man for the job.

That’s 700w or a bit less for 1 minute no? I’ve done 745w for 1 minute on the road and 904w on an echo bike. Show me someone who can do 1000w for 1 minute..

Interesting, I have the ones with the “finns” and without the silver lining, bought it from here (I see they used the render you showed once in the description)

https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4000074337087.html?af=442763&utm_campaign=442763&aff_platform=link-c-tool&utm_medium=cpa&afref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&dp=a3800d94d36bcd9a3ac31bd30873aca9&cv=815660&pvid=5648cae0-0f2c-447d-b0f8-e317b5f7cab7&sk=mr6wR6CC&aff_trace_key=4c7a90833e784d258b20cc8f24809dc0-1608416901625-09347-mr6wR6CC&rmsg=do_not_replacement&scm=1007.23534.123999.0&terminal_id=7da70dc09f4e4ab0a9044378144ee289&utm_source=admitad&utm_content=815660

Yours might be fake, what did you pay for it?

W/Kg chart doesn’t scale properly with weight, heavier riders are at a disadvantage.

Think a 100 kg rider could do 760 watts (7.6 watts pr kg) for 5 minutes? No I don’t think any human has done that and if such a human existed it would win the tour easily.
Also such a 100 kg rider would have an FTP of 608 watts, this would enable them to average 67 km/h in a time trial at 2560 mos.

A 60 kg rider doing 456 watts for 5 minutes however? Definitely.

Next question, anyone under 80 kg done it ;p

Here’s a lad under 90 kg that did it!