21 day return policy..

That’s lucky because none of them are 🙂

Used to ride in normal shoes on a pair of SPD-SL shimano pedals for a few years, wasn’t great but good enough for getting around town.

Ordered the BMC in 60 cm!

@savoyad looked at those, might be good, decathlon has a flexible return policy so could try.

@avdave2 what tights aren’t aero?? ;p

Some options (to reiterate looking for tights not pants, want compression)

Sugoi – Subzero Cycling Tight €30

Adidas Alphaskin Climawarm €27 (warm enough? they also have Climaheat products not sure if warmer)

Inovik Tights Warm Langlauf XC S 100 €20 dechatlon

Kipsta Keepdry Tights 100 or 900 €13-€17 dechatlon @thisisnotaspoon which one?

Planet X EC-130E Disc SRAM Rival 22 Aero ends up costing about the same in euros, but prefer the look of the BMC and the Shimano 105 to Sram rival groupset. I believe the planet x is over a kg lighter, perhaps 7.5kg if that matters to you.

Re:time saving, if you can save 30 watts using aero wheels and as a rule of thumb 5 watts savings = 0.5 sec/km faster, then on a fast 10 km ride you could save around 30 seconds?

£1100 for a new BMC teammachine..

The cycle paths in Berlin must be something else if you can regularly ride along at 40km/h for any distance on your daily commute.

Berlin isn’t that densely populated, and it really depends where you live and when you ride, I don’t commute or ride that often during rush hours. Then if you’re fast enough you can also share the road. It’s not like Copenhagen where the (very lovely) bike paths are nearly always busy and 40% of the population ride to work.

193.5 cm :) :(

Yeah I won’t be donning a skin suit or extreme position anytime soon, just looking for practical gains. A fairly tight jacket and tights are however fine, so is getting on the hoods if you want to go fast or perhaps on mini tt bars.

Tempting.

I don’t think the difference between a standard road bike and a slightly more aero bike will be anywhere near enough difference to make it more fun and less sluggish.

For sure, nobody has said aero frames save a lot or are noticeable on their own, but if you can fit one you like into your £1000 budget without it making you compromise on wheels might as well get one (if available used and that’s a big if). I’d be perfectly happy with a CAAD 10 disc.

@Tired Thanks for sharing, quite significant then the Propel vs the defy, but was your position on the bike the same? 10-15w seems a lot at 200w.

For £1000, the most aero you can get is with a cheap skinsuit (£120), low position (free), some oversocks (£30) and a decent helmet like a Giro air attack (£150). Bike matters little compared with the above. Even the wheels 😉 . Remove the bottle cages too. Hiding the cables makes you feel fast but is not measurable.

Definitely, but wheels matter maybe 20-40w at 40 kph so similar to a skin suit plus aero helmet (disregarding position)?

This would be a lot easier if I didn’t want disc brakes..btw need an approx 59-61 cm frame..

This is an exercise in overthinking.

Now you’re overthinking my overthinking.

I don’t care deeply about aero gains, I just thought it would be fun to discuss how aero you can get for £1000 and what components (dont’) matter. That said I wouldn’t mind making my (winter) rides more fun and a bit less sluggish by cutting through the wind more efficiently. And yes I think you could notice a 100 w difference at 40 kph (if you sum up all the gains you could get on this budget), for me going from my bike more like 150w..

So it seems you can get to within maybe 95% of a pro TT bike setup for £1000 if you get a planet X aero disc road bike + 88 mm rear and 50 mm front chinese carbon wheels + clip on tt bars (if they fit) + cheap skin suit and aero helmet – not saying I’ll rock all of that, but to me it’s inneressstin.

I’d love a CAAD4, but I want disc brakes for carbon rim braking in the wet and because they’re better IMO. If not for that I’m sure you could have gotten a super aero setup for less than £500.

BTW going from a roadbike with optimized TT bars to TT bike with the same only saved 3 watts riding at 40kph in this test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lK1xC0Z5FA

So, frame alone doesn’t matter much, about the same or even less than your helmet?

Thanks @Tired see if I can find one used or save up a bit extra, so what kind of gains did you see vs the Defy?

I’ve ordered some tights an an aero helmet..Btw aero doesn’t need to be uncomfortable or much less versatile it seems:

“The Propel is very comfortable. It puts all those comments that aero bikes are really poor rides to bed completely. It’s handling is secure and conservative. Not snappy, not razor sharp (compared to something like a Spesh Tarmac) but really smooth and stiff enough around BB that for sprinting and out of the saddle climbing it felt very light and efficient.

So if you were looking for an allround bike that can do commutes, weekend warrior, group rides and sportives – take the Giant. If you want to step up in competion either via racing with others, or Strava bashing on your own then the stiffer frame and livelier handling will get you there with a bigger smile onyour face.”

Still, not easy to find one used here in Germany, and Germans like to sell used for the same price as you can get them new urgh

@tired I’m looking forward to my future aero trike for commuting thread, so, how fast can you get on the flat with those? XD

This is one of those Mars/Venus threads – when one section of society has not one clue what motivates the other. Or the OP is either a child or a windup merchant. Entertaining regardless.

Singletrackworld

1/3 Criticism that whatever you’re asking for isn’t the optimal utilitarian tool for an imagined but incorrect use case.

1/3 Answers to what you asked for.

1/3 Sarcasm.

I’ve tried TT position commuting, not for me, but indeed smart if you’re training for a TT race or whatnot. Long term I’d worry about the increased lumbar spine lordosis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4738870/

Tri spoke disc brake wheels are hard to find and expensive, the only aero wheelset I can get on this budget is up to 88 mm deep section carbon rims (50 mm front 88 mm rear or thereabout).

Hol up, there are aero trikes?

@crikey playing the bitter ex-racer keyboard warrior? Cute. Since you can’t go fast anymore I guess nobody else can, and fast is of course relative to pro cyclists?..

Just stop commenting. I know it’s hard for you, but it’s better for everyone.

Hambini digs into the flaws of most current wind tunnel testing in his wheel test article btw, also to reiterate, Planet X only found a 8 watt benefit of their aero road frame so not much reason to doubt that unimpressive number. And as I’ve said before, I’m not obsessing about finding the most aero frame to squeeze out some marginal gains, but if I could find one on my budget why not.

What’s fun to people differ, I like to sprint, I like to go fast, I don’t like long rides. Comfort is important too up to a point, seems like modern aero bikes are comfortable enough. Time to go test some bikes!

@thisisnotaspoon

If you want to go fast, obsess over the engine, not the bike.

Who said I’m not? I also have an echo bike on my order list which was an easy choice. Work on my engine daily.

I like Planet-X, I’ve got 3 of their bikes at the moment. But they have a copy of the big Taiwanese bike part catalog, not a wind tunnel.

No brand AFAIK has their own windtunnel, they have however done some windtunnel testing and could plausibly pick frames “from the catalog” that perform https://www.planetx.co.uk/news/products/q/date/2016/06/15/thirty-per-cent-faster-we-go-wind-tunnel-testing

“The EC-130E saved 8 Watts when compared to the RT-80 (at 47 km/h, normal roadbike frame) and the Exocet Time Trial bike saved a significant 24 watts when compared to the EC-130E (ok maybe the EC-130 isn’t that good or the rider positions were different). This final comparison really outlined the importance of aerodynamics when racing Time Trials and attempting to beat the clock.”

They’ll be even more surprising when you’re on TT bars.

Yeah TT bars might be one step too far here, but since I have them I might end up trying them, a full TT handlebar setup would however be too faffy and impractical.

@w00dster

The Aeroad comes into its own when I’m putting a lot of power down over a nice distance, but it is definitely affected by road imperfections. The domane has 28mm tyres at a lower pressure so soaks up the road deflections better. Overall the Aeroad is a faster bike, but it’s not hugely different.
Shame you’re not based near me so you could ride both back to back, you’d be surprised at how similar they are in terms of speed and effort.

Thanks for the offer, that would have been swell. I’m not saying that aero road frames are much faster, but anything will be much faster than my current mountain bike frame and 40C 650b tires plus huge alu fenders. A nice looking frame is a bonus, but not a must (think the CAADs and Propels are real nice, but the PLanet X frames not too bad either).

Maybe it’s more procrastination than overthinking at this point, at least I’ll get a shortlist of bikes to go and try. It’s a bit interesting to see how much aero you can get for cheap though, seems like you can get to 90% of a 10k aero bike’s performance for 1k buying used.

You’re obsessing over the bits that make the least difference for the most cost, and biggest tradeoffs for practicality.

One thing at the time, first obsess over the bike and more importantly the wheels, then obsess over the other stuff like clothing – stay tuned.

A CAAD13 with deep rims looks really nice in the flesh, as do most aero bikes (I would dispute the Planet-X’s aero credentials, anything with a sloping top tube isn’t “aero”).

Their disc wheel came second place in Hambini’s aero wheel test, maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to discredit them? https://www.hambini.com/testing-to-find-the-fastest-bicycle-wheels/ – regardless, frame doesn’t make a huge difference – open to non aero frames.

And as everyone says, deep rims aren’t easy to live with. They feel slow to accelerate, they get knocked about by the wind, they cost a lot, they aren’t built to survive being ridden over sunken manhole covers, clumsily hoped up curbs and the everyday bump and grind of riding in traffic.

Everyone doesn’t say this, 300 grams higher rotating mass doesn’t make them slow to accelerate, they cost from $250 up, 50 mm front is more than manageable in the wind esp when you’re 90 kg, I take offense at being implicated as a clumsy curb hopper, sunken manhole covers and potholes – where the heck do ya’ll live? And I don’t buy your claim that a carbon wheelsets won’t survive being ridden around in traffic, especially when used with disc brakes, worst obstacle here are cobblestones.

Do carbon wheelsets disintegrate being used around town in traffic all year?

Might convert to SS later on, but it will be slower than a geared bike.

@philjunior hmm tubeless on a road bike won’t you have to pump up the tires for every other ride? Not so practical. Definitely makes sense with larger tires, considered it myself with my 38c ones.

@mashr whatever gets you most aero for under £1000, might not be able to hit that budget with an aero bike as they’re more expensive plus aero wheels are more important, but yes, ideally an aero frame.

@slowoldman I could get the same cardio effect on a beach cruiser, would it be fun? Not in my opinion.

@philjunior yep getting an aero helmet eventually, and GP5000 tires probably, maybe some tighter clothing too. Not getting pricey rims in any case with this budget, max £300 for the set.

I wouldn’t obsess too much anyway if you’re actually going to take it out in the wet everything will end up a slow grindy mess anyway

This is one of reasons I’d like a faster setup besides getting from A to B quicker, to counteract some of the grind and make winter road biking more fun.

Right, I only put aero next to ones that are.

Gotcha, here’re the contenders so far that could possibly be found for less than €1000 used giving me enough spare change to get cheap/used carbon aero wheels selling the old ones.

BMC Roadmachine RM03 Disc 105 €1459
BMC Teammachine ALR Disc 105 €1799 (aero?)

Cannondale CAAD10 disc 105 €800-900 used only (BB30 creak)
Cannondale CAAD12 disc 105 €1599 (BB30 creak)
Cannondale CAAD13 disc 105 €2099 (aero, fender mounts, BB30 creak)

Giant Propel Advanced 2 Disc 105 €1899 (aero)
Giant TCR Advanced 2 Disc 105 €1399 (defy same price)
Giant Contend SL 2 Disc Tiagra €999

Planet X Pro Carbon Evo Disc Rival 22 €1050
Planet X EC-130E Disc Rival 22 €1150 (aero)

You are definitely in the over thinker category 🙂

I’m usually more decisive, but still waiting for some money to come my way so I’ve had a lot of time to think ;) Plus it’s a major purchase for me.

Do about 50/50 stop and go / higher speed riding. I’d use the same tires prob GP5000s, so the rotational mass weight difference would come from the difference between a set of deep section carbon wheels at around 1800g and a 1500g set of low section wheels – would 300 grams make a significant difference accelerating?

@martymac @feed cool sounds good!

@thisisnotaspoon angle grinder then, plus got insurance for theft outside of the house, makes buying new a bit more tempting as it’d be easier to replace than a used bike (e.g. a CAAD10 disc).

@cynic-al @dawson @kerley have you been to Berlin? Flat and lots of relatively high speed 4 lane roads + bike lanes. Plus speed makes cardio more fun. At 90kg I doubt a kg of weight off on the bike wouldn’t make much difference accelerating. Furthermore I live outside the city center so it’s not all inner city riding.

I already wrote about why not track bikes: to go fast you want carbon deep section rims, according to the comments, carbon, possibly even basalt coated, would be iffy in the rain, then I went and tested two sizes of the cordoba and found its quality to be so so (nice frame though). A road frame you could convert to SS or even fixed later on, and there’s a lot more to pick from used. I apologize if I’m taking too much time deciding what I want.

Seems like my best bet on budget is to find a 60 cm CAAD10 or Planet X aero disc used and slap some used or Chinese carbon deep section wheels on it. The CAAD10 is a nicer frame, the Planet X more aero.

@joebristol thanks for the input, im fine with using a clip on rear fender and shoe covers + rain pants, but yeah, mudguard mounts would be a bonus.

@tired well, at least thelockpickinglawyer found the Abus Granit 540 X plus to have “Enough pick resistance to secure a bike on the street” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtdiO1ZiiXk

Disc brakes are a must for me safety wise (carbon wheels + traffic + rain), that said I’ve seen disc brakes testing to be more aero than regular calipers (although very close, less than a watt difference) and TriRigs would be outside my budget for now.

But there has to be some way to decreak a BB30 bottom bracket?

Saved ebay searched for the propel and tcr, suspect they will be over £1000 used though – hot commodities! Maybe more realistic to get a used planet X and a deep section wheelset.

@crikey watch out on my next post on budget aero helmets ;) Still waiting for your bike recommendation beyond color..

@trail_rat will look for the propel used, maybe a smidge faster than the CAADs? Not that frame makes a huge difference.

@grtdkad yeah leaning towards finding a used CAAD10 or CAAD12, especially since the frames come so highly recommended. New the 2018 CAAD12 disc is £1220 here, but I want those deep section rims..

@Crikey, I think there might be a noticeable speed difference between my current 650b mountain bike with 40 mm wheels and fenders, and an aero road bike w aero deep section wheels + GP5000s.

TIP: You don’t need to get a red bike, if you like red you can get red bar tape, more flexible that way. Personally I’d go with deep orange.

@Ghill side winds are not a big issue here.

@crikey good question, what bike would you recommend for “actual competitive use”, and which ones do you think looks best in front of cafes? What kind of cafes are we talking here? Can looking good in front of cafes not be seen as competitive? /s

Nah, I don’t compete nor go to cafes, Berlin is a huge city so going fast helps, plus going fast is fun, also do cardio on the bike – a few 800 m bike loops here. Seeing how much speed you can buy on a budget is a bit fun too.

not sure where you live, but no pot holes here in Berlin. Also quite a few bike lanes.

@Ghill nope, why not?

@kerley agree a tt bike or tt position is fastest, but it isn’t very practical for city riding in rush traffic, from what I gather i need disc brakes as wet carbon isn’t safe in traffic? Even with basalt coating? Regardless disc brakes are way better in such conditions. Plus you can get (in fact I already have) clip on TT bars.

No that this isn’t ridiculous and tempting:

@oldnpastit position can be adjusted quite a bit, and I’m looking for practical/comfortable gains, if I wasn’t i would get a recumbent.

I would be wary of a used frame with a PF30 or BB30.

Thanks for the tip!

@ojays beautiful! How much did you sell it for? ;)

@Lankysprinter I’ve tried em, but not used them in strong winds. People do say 50mm front and a disc rear isn’t a problem, might help that I’m 90 kg too. Still, don’t think I’ll find a disc disc wheel that will fit my budget, so maybe a 50 mm front and 88 mm rear deep section wheel could work.

The Planet X and Giant are aero frames, how aero, who knows, but the frame doesn’t make that much difference anyways. Open to other suggestions

Worth about 1.3 km/h at 250w according to the article, i guess how little that is depends on your perspective. Could be fun to try to get something as fast as possible on a budget, clearly it would be a used bike with aero wheels, just not a lot of used track bikes out there compared to road bikes.

Ultimate budget pick, used planet x aero disc with 50 mm carbon wheels. Throw in a used aero helmet on top.

58 cm cordoba in all her glory, seatpost at min insertion..

Moi

A tad small when on the drops, otherwise A ok, a 59 or 60 would be ideal.

@pullfaces good point about road frames and bb size, the big difference for me is horizontal dropouts, but if going the SS route you could use a chain tensioner or other tech to convert to SS.

Maybe I should go full aero SS instead, aero frames don’t save too much, maybe 1.2 km/h at 250W, but aero carbon wheels save 2.2 km/h https://road.cc/content/blog/175749-buying-watts-how-much-difference-does-aero-bike-make

So, how much speed can I get for £1000 used (no recumbents or electric motors please)

No, not suggesting to use a disc wheel, but look how cheap second hand carbon is!

Good point about weight, guess you’ll gain a lill acceleration but not that much at 90 kg body-weight.

Just want a light, aggressive and somewhat aero 1 gear road bike.. I could build one that weighs 6 kg with 50 mm basalt brake track carbon wheels for about £1000 new – a lot of speed for your buck.

Ideally I’d get one with disc brakes, but that eliminates the track frame option. Planet x has a disc brake aero bike for the same price (without the aero wheels), but,,

Tried the 61 cm one and definitely felt at home, but could be more aggressive. It can definitely look right AND work right too