Giro Aether is actually a bit wider than the synthe

Thanks Oggles, that’s what I thought, about 1 cm narrower than the Cinder, not bad.

There’s also the Kask Utopia, sacrificing a bit of ventilation and looks for marginal aero gains (10 watts at 40 km/h over the Synthe it seems https://www.radsport-rennrad.de/test-teile/aero-helme-windkanal-test-2/)

My head is so big that sizing down won’t work I don’t think, large is already small..

Giro Synthe (looks significantly slimmer than Cinder IMO)

Giro Cinder

Kask Protone (maybe the least mushroomy helmet there is)

Good to know, the pad on the SL PRO is however different to the FS260, will be interesting to contrast it to the Rapha core (19 cm pad width).

Ordered the new 2020 PRO SL w narrow pad and will compare it with the Rapha Core :)

Here’s what I’ve gathered, from top to bottom end

Pro SL – top end model redesigned for 2020, successor of Pro SL 2
Pro SL 2 – 2018? model
Pro SL Lite – holes for cooling in legs and pad, not lighter in weight
Pro SL – older model
FS260 cheapest – no narrow pad option

They do seem stiffer, so a bit more sensitive to proper alignment. No rain yet.

🤫

Liks this?

And no cone – IIRC from the very excellent Faster, smooth surfaces have air pass over in nice smooth laminar flow until it breaks into horrible slow turbulence, and the longer the laminar flow the more slowerer the turbulence. Shoelace to trip the air into early and minimised turbulence FTW. 🙂

Very interesting, cone nay, shoelace yay.

First ride up on pinkbike with wheels using fade hubs https://www.pinkbike.com/news/newmen-advanced-sl-a30-wheelset-first-ride-2020.html

And newmen explaining why pawls > ratchets <3

“There are various reasons for this decision. When developing our new hub we had three design targets in mind:
– further improved reliability
– less noise
– strong enough for e-bike use

Evaluating our options with in house lab testing of various prototypes and also competitor hubs we have come to the conclusion that a large designed pawl system is the only way to combine all of the above for us. for once star ratchet drivers are inherently noise and also we believe that a well designed pawl system is more reliable. With a star ratchet system it CAN happen that the ratchets don’t fully engage and then when you only put down slight power the ratchets will be damaged. With a pawl system when only one pawl engages (you always have to expect that something CAN go wrong), if you dont have a peak force right at the time where not all pawls were engaging (very slim chance) nothing will be damaged. Especially after doing a lot of testing with e-bikes (yes we know not everyone likes them) we figure that the more reliable option is a large and well designed pawl system.”

Translated from German

”
It is wrong to say that toothed-disk hubs are generally better.
I would like to go a little further… there is a Swiss company that has done a very good job in terms of marketing for many years and has instilled in people that hubs with toothed lock washers are the best variant of freewheeling. Due to the really good function and the reliability, the image in the minds of the bikers was created that toothed pulley freewheels are the ultimate.
Toothed pulley freewheels are not all equally good. I.e. there are sprocket freewheels that are no better – maybe even worse – than a good pawl freewheel.
I don’t want to go much deeper into technology here.
The disadvantages of the toothed disk hubs in general: they are loud, they are not easy to master, they are susceptible to the use of wrong / too much grease and there are many patents which concern toothed disk hubs.
There will be more and more toothed disk hubs on the market in the future and I strongly suspect that with them the defect rate will skyrocket … because even many manufacturers think that a toothed disk hub is the ultimate.

Why did we decide to switch from toothed lock washers to pawls ?!
It wasn’t that we simply said we were changing, but we had a clear goal:
Our new hubs should be quieter, more fail-safe and so stable that they are also fully suitable for e-bikes.
And we were not able to reconcile all of these points in a toothed disc hub, but we could do so in a pawl hub.
Of course, we also asked ourselves how you (our customers) will react to the change.
In the end, we came to the conclusion that there is only one thing. Namely because the products are as light, durable, fail-safe, low-maintenance and affordable as possible. No matter what technology works inside.

On the subject of volume:
Our fade hubs are quieter because we very often received emails that read something like this:
Your hubs are really cool, but how can you get them quieter ?!

For everyone who thinks loud: That is not a real problem either. Pull off the freewheel, wipe off the grease and the hub is again relatively loud.

I can understand if the technology nerds get tears in your eyes with the disappearance of the pulleys, but a good ratchet hub is the better hub in our eyes.

You are welcome to ask questions here, I will answer them if I have time.

VG Michi”

If you’ve got a power meter and a still day (or sheltered spot) then you can use the ‘Chung method’ for estimating aero gains. That way you could find an optimal head arrangement before making a tilt at your KOMs.

Good idea, but Berlin is quite windy and I think a best bet arrangement will do here

Sharkskin shower cap. Swimmers use this in their suits as it makes them more hydrodynamic and that’s the same as aerodynamic I expect.

Indeed, but a full head latex mask would prob be even better?

All my rides have powerdata now woop

This one, turned around and cut holes for eyes and mouth?!

600W+ for over a minute, ambitious. Have you correlated for your weight though?

Why are you looking at climbs though? Just find some 2min flat roads and get KOMs there? I seem to remember you’re not exactly flyweight? So why even try and beat the climbers?

If its in any way competitive the KOM is probably 5ft6, skinny and riding a TT bike.

Yeah I’m getting around to the flat ones but you need ideal wind conditions for those, short climbs are less wind dependent and more fun – Berlin isn’t very competitive at all. I’ve averaged 750 watts for 1 min so it shouldn’t be completely out of reach.

Convert, actually not a bad idea I could borrow it from some friends here, combined with the birthday hat on the back of the head should be close to optimal? Not as cool as a conehead though.

…and you think aero will help?

Of course – you hit it rolling at 45 km/h, then try to average 30-35 km/h for the rest :S plus shaving some weight off with no helmet.

Can you stick some fins on (or carve some in!) To assist air flow?

Can you illustrate? Wouldn’t the shoelace already do this?

Still waiting for the Rapha’s, arriving the 11th, hope it’s not too diaper-y

Wanna buy it?

a bit surprised how a brand picked a name that sounds like a Chinese no-name brand and not something more German.. they could at least have called it Neumann ;p

But think I will go for it!

Odd question but why do you, or anyone else for that matter, want all these POE on a road hub?

Nice for when you want to do trials with your roadbike.

I agree – don’t want or need super high POE – made that mistake getting a DT350 54T ratchet hub.

33 POE isn’t THAT high though and should be ok, the Hope RS4 has 44 POE though so this one is a better choice in that dept.

Yeah only read positive reviews, maybe I should bug the germans on mtb-news.de.. Hope RS4 is the other option, but out of stock and heavier, I do however have the hope tools.

I like this Michael Grätz fella.

Don’t know, “German company Newmen are only a couple of years old, but Michael Grätz, the man behind the company, knows a thing or two about designing bike components. Michi previously started Liteville and Syntace, who have built an enviable reputation for precisely engineered bikes and reliable componentry. “

Time to go out and ride at 40 kph back and forth on straight roads with an anemometer
and see what the powermeter says.. :p

Wow, roadcyclists are an obsessive bunch.. https://science4performance.com/2017/02/24/the-best-wind-for-a-kom-on-strava/ hehe

Flat roads here!

Sockpuppet, hmm I’d say at least 200W to hold 40 kmh with a 20 kmh tailwind on the hoods, guesstimating from experience – what’s your bet?

Just got back from a ride and it took me 522w to maintain 45 kmh for 1 min on a flat road with a very slight tailwind, flat back on the hoods..

I’m saying that a 20 km/h tailwind will make it 200w easier to stay at 40 km/h. So you could hold 40 km/h at around 250 watts I’d guesstimate.

https://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffEqWindCourse_Page.html hmm not getting watts saved out of it

There’s a KOMinator app for android that shows you local segments with ideal win(d) conditions, a must if you’re going for flat or non loopy ones.

Honestly I struggle to motivate myself to do structured training outside on a bike in the UK. None of the climbs are really long enough, there’s traffic and traffic lights everywhere. Dumb strava KOMs at the right intensity are an excellent way to find a good place to do intervals

Agreed, it’s good fun and motivates you to get out more. Try to mix it up a little, only a couple hills that are reasonably near me though.

Oh and never buy a Shimano Microspline hub for your mtb, they go between clicky and silent dependent on speed, would drive you mad!

Appreciate the warning!

If you’re really worried about drag

Nah, but given the choice..

I read this

No you didn’t.

Will do. Also why dont the logos line up on left and right sides of the conits, now I can only have the logos properly aligned on the drive side :p

PS how much of that noise is caused by those deep rims rather than the hub? I suspect hope will also make the noise with those rims.

The rim amplifies the noise, but it doesn’t create its oscillating nature – just look at other DT hub noise vids.

Right now it’s tolerable with a 24T ratchet, but it doesn’t please my ears either ;p

So far so good, came truer than the dura ace discs out of the box and looks better without any glossy piano black.

Hope Pro Evo 2 40 POE low grease

Hope Pro Evo 2 40 POE DT grease

DT350 24 POE

DT350 54 POE

I really should stop lol, but even if the Hope hub sounds aggressive with its high POE, the sound is even relative to the DT hubs. Less POE is more for road use, likely less drag that way too.

Believe recording the sound with the bike upside down on the ground is better than clamped up as it won’t rock as much BTW.

I hear an oscillation on that video.

True, but it’s nowhere near as bad! Let me remind you:

DT350

All hubs sound like that when you spin them up in your house. But you carry on…

False

YMMV but I had never heard an oscillating hub before and to me it sounds like it’s broken. I don’t think it’s a weird requirement, I think it’s weirder to think it sounds good.

I wasn’t aware how much road use+carbon rims amplified noise coming from Hope Pro 2 Evos which sound lovely. Less is more on the road, so skeptical to both Chris King and Carbon Ti hubs with their high POE, Hope RS4 seems like a better bet.

The chances of buying a hub that meets your brain’s requirements and has same flange height is surely slim.

According to DT’s spoke length calc all the hubs I’m considering are within 1 mm of the spoke length used with the DT350, so besides the rebuild cost/time it needn’t be that expensive.

Kudos OP, you’re making my crusade against noisy disc brakes look somewhat rational! 😁

Started my own crusade here https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/sram-centerline-xr-rotors-with-shimano-105-road-calipers/ – rumors has it Swisstop’s Exotherm 2 organic pads are the best..(see how Shimano’s 1/3 of the price organic ones do first).

I run Ultegra callipers on Centreline clx rotors and they’re much more quiet than the Dura Ace ones I took off. The Shimano ones had a real warble to them as they’re alu cores which go out of true easily and make the noise.

Cool, also have Dura ace rotors and haven’t been happy with them, both were delivered out of true and they’re noisy in the wet (although haven’t tried w resin pads). No need for ice-tech alu cores here so centerline XR seems like a better choice and equally important, they look better IMO.

I wonder if the uneven track width of the dura ace rotors contribute to warble? I measured them 9.5 mm at the narrowest and 15 mm at the widest, whereas centerlines are around 15 mm even (shimano pads are 13.5mm tall).

You just bought a brand new pair of wheels and you think the hub is broken so you are going to spend your own money replacing the hub??? Wtf???

Not broken, just broken sounding :p

You will then have miss matched hubs unless you replace the front hub.

Could live with i that (maybe), or I could sell the old pair and get a new pair built on Hope hubs, but then I’d need to send them to China at which point Carbon-ti’s would cost the same.

I’d suggest before you spend another couple of hundred quid you eat some humble pie and go visit your local bike shop and ask them to take a look at them. They might spot something wrong with them, they might spot you’ve cocked up or they might tell you it’s all in your head.

All DT ratchet hubs sound like this, design flaw I reckon, some think it’s due to uneven spring tension – it’s a known phenomena, but not as noticeable with lower teeth ratchets or MTB use.

I wasn’t aware of this, and I didn’t estimate how much deep carbon rims and road use amplified noise, so I picked the wrong hubs/ratchets, plus my bike is an only child so it needs to be perrrfect.

PS I think I’m a @yohandsome fanboi, he’s the funniest thing on stw! Proper cheered me up today. His threads just keep giving. Please tell me you have a YouTube channel documenting your pursuit of speed!

I’m putting all my free time into STW posts as is..

OP – what did you use for balancing the wheels. Lead was always the “best” option but is now shunned on health grounds. Solder works well if it’s small adjustments.

Lead golf weights about 3 grams each taped to the inside of the rim, what’s the health concern?

My RS4s are considerably louder than my 350s.

Loud is ok, you can tune volume with grease to some extent, but do they sound even? I.e. not oscillating a lot.

It massages your ears when you’re going downhill bzzzzzzzz and can conveniently be used to let people know you’re coming in a less obnoxious way than a bell. If you want to be silent you can too.

What’s not to love about a reasonably loud even tick?

Thisisnotaspoon: Shimano hubs AFAIK also just have 2 pawls, seems like it’s adequate and RS4 has 2 pawls for less drag and less noise whereas the Hope trials hub has 2 of its 4 pawls engage at the time to double POE from 44 to 88.

370 then. Otherwise there’s little chance you’re reusing the same spokes.

Not a bad idea (apart from the reports of their pawls being crap, so a better idea is the Hope), but only ever seen J bend 370s for sale, not sure if they even come in centerlock 24h straight pull. All the hubs listed will work with the spokes currently used according to DT’s spoke length calc – or are there other reasons the spokes could not be reused? Sheldon brown thinks reusing spokes is fine https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/reusing-spokes.html

I’m not that vested in the straight pull vs J bend strength discussion – of course both are fine, mostly straight pull looks better and is more practical for spoke replacements.

Close but no cigar..

That’s just the wheel being out of balance, nothing to do with the hub. There will be variations in the carbon, the tyre and, of course, there’s the valve to consider.

I balanced the wheel, no difference, and it’s the same on every youtube video sound test for DT hubs.

rubbish eveyones view but your own.

Not nice. It’s called discussing.

I really like the wheels you bought and am now considering some myself.

Make sure to get a visual inspection done beforehand. They also offer different hubs (carbon-ti’s from them are only $300 for the rear for instance), there a huge farsports thread on weight weenies you could check out.

Generally if you want stiff you go with high flanges, straight pull hubs are probably the lowest flanges you could sensibly get.

Not necessarily, DT have low relatively closely spaced flanges, Carbon ti and Hope have higher driveside flanges and wider spacing.

I’d actually just keep the 350’s – they’re probably marginally better than the Hope alternative and will likely need less maintenance. From the video they aren’t sounding a huge amount different to the Hope’s – maybe a touch quieter I guess.

Can’t you hear it’s going bzzzBZZZZbzzzBZZZZ oscillating like something is broken?

Going to get the Hope RS4s if there’s no better suggestion since weight isn’t that important to me and they’re cheaper + less obnoxious sounding than the carbon tis.

Hunt uses bitex hubs I believe.