Also, older Lyriks like mine are prone to some play in the bushes and it keeps them supple, take away the play and you get too much stiction.

I think here-in lies my problem. Almost all the manufacturers now seem to be battling for the smoothest feeling fork, and as you say looser bushes is one way of helping this. I remember years ago it would take quite a few hours on a fork for them to bed in and loosen up, nowadays they're like that out of the box. I could still be wrong but I think my apparent 'wear' (increasing looseness over time) is a symptom of that. I don't think it being a 29er fork helps either, as the bushings are the same depth as they are in a 26" fork except now they've got a longer fork to deal with. I seem to remember that Boxxer bushings have considerably bigger surface area, so if I have indeed worn them perhaps RS need to come out with 29er bushings? Just a few thoughts

You'll be fine donks after a practice!

Donks, I've not had it happen to me before but have heard of the odd person having it happen. The vids are pretty good I think and you won't need much in the way of tools to do just that basic service. I am sure you will find it surprisingly easy after your first go. You will need some oil though, I have "Finish Line" oil as it comes in an easy to pour/difficult to spill container.

I doubt we're talking one cycle of your stanchions will lead to wear but if you persist in riding them before giving them a clean you might have a problem. The anodising is tough stuff but can only last so long if abraded with mud/sand/stone mix! 🙂

I agree with PP, i would be amazed if they're shot already unless you've been making a real hash of your monthly servicing…

You're right I must have done something wrong. Of course there couldn't be the possibility of them actually having worn? The rear shock bushes on my Tallboy last rougly 6 weeks a time, I must be at fault there then as well? The bearings in my Rohloff hub only last ~ a year at a time as well, so clearly I must be doing something wrong there and so on…. If you want to know someone who is really 'doing it wrong' then try MattMagic's blog, his wear/breakage rate would seem ridiculous to most but he also does far more offroad riding than most people on here, including me. A month for him is probably a year for the average offroader. So I don't buy into the "it hasn't happened to me therefore you're wrong" ideal.

Without trying to sound condescending I find that I seem to wear things out quite quickly compared to others as I ride exclusively offroad and like to spend time on my bike. Annoying as it is to be continually faffing with maintenance at times!

Peter, ive had a quick look through the service instructions posted but am unsure if these will apply to cleaning the wiperseals and refiting them, If I am honest these forks are very new to me as I used the coil sprung forks for many years and never need to touch them (ah happy days) so I would like to get to grips with these buggers and not break the bank so do you have any instructions on basic maintenance for the maxle team versions??? I might try to convert the pop lock though for a manual lock out so cheers.

In addition to PP's instructions there are also some great videos that Sram have posted on YouTube that might be of some use HERE

If all that has happened is the grey dust seal has lifted then likely all you would need to do is remove the lowers and foam rings in the seals and give everything a good clean. I would recommend you do that soon though as if there is a lot of crap in there now it will do a good job of wearing your stanchions quickly which is best avoided.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that PP comes over as arrogant and condesending at times. I should know better than to react like that I suppose.

My original post was to ask if anyone/any shops had the tool or knew where to get it, I wasn't asking advice on bushings or bushing wear. I got it anyway though, as clearly I wouldn't have a clue and I need telling that I'm wrong. I might be wrong but there are much better ways of communicating that. How about an opening question of "are you sure the bushings have worn?" as opposed to statements like "Because I know RS forks inside and out"…..

Subsequent to that question I contacted LoCo and he sorted me out with a great deal to sort/change the bushings only (which I also posted some time ago). Until then I hadn't found anywhere else that would do that only, and would have needed to pay roughly £120 each time to get a set replaced. Seeing as the full set of tools retails for ~ £200 (if you can find) I reasoned that after a few uses it would pay for itself. Yes ideally the bushings would need to be a good fit for the best performance but they're relatively cheap and I would have been able to replace them at home so it would have been no big problem to do so.

PP, I posted yesteday that the forks are going to LoCo as he's offered a great price to do so.

I'll leave it now but I find it irritating when people presume you're an idiot on here. Like the time I dared to comment on the wear of brake pads in the Peak District……

PP, your advice seemed to be an opportunity to massage the ego of 'the world's best mechanic', which you call yourself in your profile. I should have known better really than to ask a question on here and not expect a know-it-all response. I note that is your standard type of response from reading threads in the past though. If that was not your intention then perhaps I could suggest you word your posts differently.

Are RS lower legs not a uniform internal diameter then? If true and moving the bushing position altered fit I'm not sure it would be a good idea anyway as I presume the 'powerbulges' are there for a reason.

Donk, search for 'rockshox lower leg service'. Loads of guides online.

SST, I too am getting confused by the use of 'resizing bushings', which surely just means fitting new ones that fit well?! I suppose on a new set you could have some that were a little tight but IME that doesn't really happen as manufacturers seem to pursue out of the box smoothness as top priority.

Since I have developed movement in mine I would refer to sizing the bushings as choosing from a big bag of new ones and finding the best fit taking into account the manufacturing tolerances of the forks and bushes.

Because I know RS forks inside and out (I'm the one that's written the servicing and modification guides you see passed around on here) and I know the modern ones made in the last 5 years or so almost NEVER wear their bushes out.
Lots of RS forks also develop sloppy bushes fairly quickly, as yours have. I've had 2 sets do it. Then, when you get them bushes resized, they go on for several years afterwards without it happening again. Yes, you might be the exception, but to be honest I doubt it.
If you ride a lot, invest in some decent 15 & 5wt suspension oils from a motorbike shop, get the bushes sorted professionally (resized properly) and then do a basic lube service every 4-6 months. Stands to reason that regular fresh oil will help.

Seriously, just leave it to the Pros!

So just to clarify because it hasn't happened to you, and you're a self-proclaimed expert, that it can't be true? Sounds about standard for the thinking of some people on here! Also you know more than me because you simply presume you do? I won't go on (because I don't need to) but that is a little presumptious.

Genuinely what is the difference between developing "sloppy bushings" after a period of time (in my case I would say ~ 200 – 250 hrs use on each fork) and wear? I'm not sure what you mean but the resolution is the same, fit new and correctly sized bushings? I sincerely hope that when LoCo fits and sizes new ones that you are right and they continue on for much longer without needing further intervention. But as I keep finding with MTB stuff nothing seems to last if you actually use it regularly offroad. Oh and the lowers are serviced roughly once a month, haven't changed the damper oil or any of the seals as of yet but that has never been a source of issue for me after 6 months before.

They were the old boxes they had lying about . Apparently the charge was for storage and handling !

In that case it could perhaps be considered a bit cheeky. In the defence of bike shops though I would say that I empathasise somewhat with their situation on things like this. People buy stuff cheaper than they can afford to sell at CRC/Merlin etc and then still expect to go into the local bike shop and get things like boxes and other help free of charge. Not saying this is what your friend does/has done but having been on the other side of the argument I can see why bike shops are sometimes reluctant to do things like this.

Bit of a catch-22 situation though as if you don't provide friendly service then people might not come back, but at the same time they might just still buy at the cheapest places regardless of effort/service provided by the LBS. If he is known to, or a regular in said shop there is no excuse though!

I should have added I have been offered a very good deal by LoCo to replace the bushings which I will be taking him up on shortly so if anyone else is reading this thread and needs the same I would recommend contacting him.

The thing is, it's not just a case of buying a cheap tool and replacing the bushes. The tool is EXPENSIVE and you need to size the bush to the stanchions. If I were you I'd take LoCo up on the offer becasue you won't get it done any cheaper

The bushes probably aren't 'worn out' either, odds on they just need resizing.

I'm a great advocate of home fork servicing, but this really is best left to the proffessionals.

I am aware that the tool is expensive, however if I am going to be replacing bushings every 6 months on two sets of forks it could pay for itself reasonably quickly.

What makes you think the bushes aren't worn out? Unlike a lot of posters on here I actually do quite a bit of riding and the movement in the fork has only recently become noticable. I'm not going to justify what I have done to determine this on here but I am quite confident that the bushings need replacing.

I would agree on the need to size front when replacing, but again when I have made enquiries elsewhere this would only be done as part of an in-depth service, which would prove costly unless the sizing made a big difference to the wear rate. Having had two bolt-through sets of 29er forks wear like this, and a non-qr 29er set not wear like this in a year's worth of riding previously I am beginning to think it could be related to the long 29er fork, big rotor (180 and 203) and bolt-through combo in some way. No 'track record' as such that I can find online to back this up though.

Depends on the boxes, were they already used ones that come with bikes or ones that the store has made? I ask as I used to work in a busy mail order store who bought boxes in to send fully built bikes out to customers in.

My point is before everyone jumps on their high horse that the boxes could have been bought in by the store, therefore not necessarily free. The store I worked in didn't give any boxes away for free, as the only ones on site were what they had bought in.

Print the emails, post them to CRC in an envelope marked Managing Director, Private and Confidential with a brief, polite covering letter.

+1

Your next challenge of course is to get contact details for someone higher in CRC, not an easy task I imagine.

You could definitely work on your complaining skills though. While you might not agree it is rarely the shouty or angry customers that get the best treatment when problems occur – I've learnt that lesson.

Pretty poor service there. I would keep a record of the communication between you and 'Mark' as I'm sure his boss would love to know how he communicates with customers. While I would say that perhaps your first email could have be toned better the way he has responded is totally unprofessional. If he were working for me I would want to know about it and would certainly be having a stern word with him.

Victim of their own success? Expanding quickly and having to quickly hire staff who aren't up to scratch? Pure speculation but I have seen this happen before. I think someone higher up in CRC needs to know about it.

I liked it fine apart from the water penetration thing. My son thinks having to send it to Germany once a year for new bearings is worth it, but I prefer kit that I can fix myself and doesn't have to be mollycoddled…

Yes I wish there was a Rohloff service centre in the UK. However I haven't had to pay any postage to return the hub to Rohloff as of yet so its not that bad. When I looked though it was circa £100 to send a 29er wheel with insurance to the appropriate value, which is not cheap. It would be verging on the ridiculous to start paying that amount annually to get bearings replaced.

IMO Rohloff are in denial

I agree, you have a hard time finding out what they have actually done if you have to send it back. It's annoying though as I would prefer they were more transparent. They seem to think that it will effect their image. Regardless I would still buy one again and the service I have received from them when needed has been good.

Yes, but at around a £1000 for a Rohloff hub and with them being sold as almost maintenance free and ideal for world tours and tandems, people expect better.
If you break a normal hub, no matter where you are in the world, you won't be far from a suitable replacement.
A replacement Rohloff hub has to be posted out from Germany.
I don't think it's a common problem, but there are a few stories and pictures on the web.
A Rohloff hub flange is one of the few things I have never broken on a bike.
It can only be a matter of time.

I agree but my point is about the number of failure modes that leave it totally unusable, which as far as I am aware is not many. I suppose it depends on how remote your tour is or what kind of country it is but there might not be too much difference in getting a hub sent out and having to source 'normal' bits. I have read, mostly on the Rohloff site, that they have sent out hubs for free to people while on long distance remote tours. I cannot imagine any other drivetrain part company doing that, try getting Shimano to send you a new Alfine hub to the middle of Africa. No way.

They're not perfect, I've talked about my experiences on other threads but I still think they are the best drivetrain choice for reliability and lack of required maintenance.

"There aren't that many ways a Rohloff can fail and leave you with nothing. In fact there is only one that I have heard of actually happening and that is shearing the nylon shear pins – although if you do that it is likely because you're using the hub outside of its specification, those pins are designed to shear in order to protect the hub."

A broken spoke flange won't take long to leave you with nothing – I know someone who has had this happen twice.

Can't that happen with a normal hub too? Does that leave it not functioning at all (I genuinely don't know)?

For the record, my hub had to go back to Germany again a year after I first had the bearings changed. Same lateral play that I had before and some problems shifting. All due to worn bearings though, main hub body and internal gear roller bearings.

Rohloff said they had no idea why they had worn like they had. No bog trotting, steam/power hose cleaning on my part. Regardless they collected the wheel, fitted new parts and returned it to me free of charge. Turnaround was roughly a week (although I was without the wheel for a couple due to the timing coinciding with the volcanic ash enforced flight cancellations at the time).

So I now consider the bearings to be disposable and would have to disagree with the comments from Thorn/Rohloff written above. I don't ride that much, as far as I am concerned but my Rohloff bike does all of my winter offroad mileage ~ 10 hours a week. Oil level is looked after too with reasonably regular changes so I don't think lack of lubrication is the issue.

A few months on the bearings are still solid, including racking up an Alps holiday and I can't detect any movement by hand.

I still wonder about my 29er theory….. I have 3 other mates with Rohloffs on 29ers so will see if they have the same issue that I have had. They don't ride as much as me though so I could be waiting a while for the result of that experiment!

Bike Village, Les Arcs and La Plagne.

Use of legs or lifts on offer as they have two groups (or more) going out each day. I have been with them twice before and ejoyed each time. Highly recommended.

David Jey FYI the bearing thing was discussed on a thread some time ago when it first happened:

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rohloff-hub-bearings

Surprised by this – how many miles do you do and in what sort of conditions? Mine is coming up to five years/10000km(ish) of whatever muck riding year-round in S Wales can throw at it and I've never had the need to do anything but change the oil. Only just onto my second sprocket (although the old one was VERY dead).

Not all that much riding to be honest, on average probably about 10 hours offroading a week. Rohloff couldn't offer any suggestions as to why the bearings have worn out twice as they reckon they normally go on for years at a time. At first they asked if I had been steam cleaning or jet washing the bike, if you asked my riding buddies this though they would laugh as I virtually never clean my Rohloff bike – when I do it is only a bucket and sponge job. The bearings wore so that there was lateral play in the wheel, obviously as soon as there is any free movement they do a pretty good job of wearing out quickly.

I have a theory though – not sure if it is true or not but……. I have my Hoff on a 29er and perhaps the increased load on the bearings due to the bigger radius wheel wears them out more quickly? I mentioned this to Rohloff but they didn't seem to think that would be the reason.

That said 18 month lifespan to me is more than reasonable for wheel bearing lifetime on a MTB, but according to Rohloff that is not up to scratch so they have been replacing them and servicing the hub for free for me. If I could get Hope bearings to last that amount of time in the same conditions, and then get them replaced for free (including postage) then I would consider that a miracle based on previous experience.

I'm not even sure what this 'drag' that people talk of is. The seals drag a little if freewheeling – you can tell as the cranks rotate slowly when pushing the bike. This is a result of the sealing to keep the crap out I believe.

Also I do believe that there is greater mechanical loss in the system compared to a normal drivetrain with a caveat. If your drivetrain is covered in crap, or you're crossing the chain then I can't imagine that is the case. I have nothing to back this up though, only that you can feel the mechanical parts through the cranks – particularly in some gears when you have all of the gearing engaged.

However I would say that is all besides the point with a Rohloff. I got one for a 'go to' bike. It is always there ready to go and performs the same regardless of the weather and I can stick the bike in the garage and leave it after a ride. I literally do no maintenance to it at all and wear rate on drivetrain parts is very low. A Rohloff is different to a normal drivetrain, I have both and I definitely think there is a place for it. IMO the best set-up is on a SS hardtail, no derailleurs/chain tensioners/chain guides etc, which gives you a bike that is always ready for a ride. If you're sticking it on a race bike then you're likely to be dissapointed.

You are definitely still not feeling right, it is only Wednesday!

You'll probably be better on Thursday…..

My revs sometimes do this. It only happens when somewhere between max and min travel though. i was quite disappointed when i noticed it.

All the u-turns have the travel adjust helix rattle, mine have done from new. The new clunk is a step on from this though and I'm not sure it is even the same problem anymore.

Yep, exactly the same to the extent I did consider swapping the headset. Does it only occur for you if it's somewhere in between the top and bottom of the travel adjust? If my forks are set to 90mm or 120mm it doesn't occur which definitely indicates in my mind its the U-Turn helix. Wonder if replacing the helix would help?

As you mention it then it used to happen only in the middle of the travel adjust range but it has now graduated to any position.

They used to do them, just not any more. I had three sets of Maxle 29ers from them. They've recently serviced one of those. I'd give em a call. They may well service them, though will likely charge you for it. Unfortunately this is the downside of importing things from the US

I'll speak to them and see what they think. What I don't want to be doing is sending them off and having to pay for a 'service' when they don't need one as such, and then replacement parts on top of that – I'm thinking this could start approaching £200 if I am not careful. I've had the forks apart quite a few times to clean the lowers, replace oil etc and they are in good condition other than the horrendous clunk!

I actually have another set of Maxle 29er Rebas on my other bike which are non u-turn. I think the first thing I will do is swap the dual cartridge in and see if that eradicates the clunk. If so then I will just buy the dual air assembly from Fishers, its £70 and cheaper than a service before any replacement parts are fitted. I'm mechanically competent and like to do jobs myself wherever possible so I'd rather avoid giving someone £100 for a job I could do myself 🙂

Oh and I'd edit your comment Sam to

Unfortunately this is the downside of Fisher not importing a decent range of 29er forks from the US

🙂

For an expedition bike I think I'd actually rather have a conventional set-up because I know I can fix or bodge most issues. If a Rohloff fails (and I have read a few reports of problems) then you're likely to be completely stuffed.

There aren't that many ways a Rohloff can fail and leave you with nothing. In fact there is only one that I have heard of actually happening and that is shearing the nylon shear pins – although if you do that it is likely because you're using the hub outside of its specification, those pins are designed to shear in order to protect the hub. If they do shear you are left with no drive, but again this would only happen if you ignored Rohloff's instructions in the first place.

The other one would be the hub shell cracking I suppose but that could happen to a normal hub as well and isn't any more likely.

All other sudden failures, as opposed to things wearing out, that I can think of still leave you with a working hub – SS, fixie, change gear with 8 mm spanner etc. I suspect that there are many more ways a normal derailleur set up can break and not be repairable on the spot.

As you can probably tell I have a Rohloff and I rate it. Money no object for MTBing then you would of course go Rohloff every time for the reliability and range of gears, which is much greater than an Alfine. They are not infallable though, mine has been to Germany twice (about every 18 months) to have the bearings changed. This hasn't cost me anything yet though and takes only 7-10 days so I can't really complain. I ride quite a lot and in that time my derailleur bike has had a lot more attention and a lot less miles.

Rohloff for the win! (especially in winter)

This might do the job

http://www.fisheroutdoor.co.uk//product.asp?category=840&part%5Fno=R5313010&find%5Fcategory=&find%5Fdescription=&find%5Fpart%5Fdesc=reba+29er

Cal, yes but they don't "feel dead for the first 35 mm" of travel. They still feel smooth apart from the initial knock to get them moving. The knock is particularly pronounced on the edge of a bump or when pulling the brake, it feels like a loose headset in a way.

I'm not all that happy about it to be honest. Considering just buying the parts to make it a standard dual-air fork as I rarely use the travel adjust anyway. Fishers must import that as they sell non u-turn Rebas

Cal – just reread my earlier post and can see that it might have sounded a little conflicting. It's definitely more than just a u-turn helix knock/rattle so I'll have to do something about it

Won't be cheap to send them back to the US! Was trying to ascertain whether I could do a DIY fix first of all.

Bought them from the US as they are a maxle model, which annoyingly Fishers don't bring into the country so had no choice but to source them abroad. I don't know where that leaves me with regard to warranty.

Not sure if the problem is the same as the u-turn seperation as the forks feel fine going up and down, just the rattle that is the problem.

bump

One man's Alpine riding is a lot different to someone elses, so the comments about unacceptable wear rate in that time are meaningless. For the record, I did 7 days riding amounting to ~ 25 hours on the bike and the set I had still had plenty of life left in them when I got back.

FWIW 'The Alps' are quite varied. A lot of difference between some of the 1 hour slow, technical and tight trails that I tend to ride over there and 25 minute all out blasts on a fast track.

For the price they are worth it, even IF they did wear out in a week. In my experiece though they won't.

Rode them in the Alps for a week earlier this summer. They were fine. Not a fan of most Superstar stuff but would recommend these. Lots of bite, noticeably more than the previous organic pads I had fitted.

Skidartist, not at that rate. Certainly not if the trends of recent history continued. FYI diesel sales account for ~ 43% of new car sales, and ~ 32% of the current UK passenger car fleet.

I guess my point is that it is just another example of a strategy that doesn't seem particularly well thought through. That statement could have been on loop for around the last 10 years of UK AQ/pollution/climate change policies.

That said figures released not so long ago peg the cost of our poor AQ at between £8.5 and £20.2 BILLION a year and attribute it to an average reduction in life expectancy of 7 – 8 months, which is more than all road traffic accidents and passive smoking combined. So perhaps now it is realised that it is costing a lot of money more notice will be taken by those who make the decisions.

The scrappage scheme was indeed in my humble opinion a stupid idea if ever I heard of one. It is totally at odds with Air Quality and environment policies. Work been done at the Institute of Transport Studies at the University of Leeds has been able to pick up an increase in NOx/PM emissions as a direct result of the scheme. Essentially taking a load of older petrol cars off the road and replacing them with a substantial fraction more diesel cars. This is a particularly mad idea from the angle I work on, Air Quality, as we're already failing European legislation limit values for NOx (and PM in places) which leaves us in the early stages of legal preceedings to the tune of £300 million + fines. It's ok though because Labour said those fines would just be passed straight onto Local Authorities "who are responsible". Idiots. So that could be several hundred million coming out of your council tax and local services.