It’s true, you can’t trust the media….
including ‘social’ media 😉

seosamh77 – Member
They are called the silent majority for a reason, they are happy to be ruled. Nothing will change.

I hope and think you are wrong. ‘Westminster’ can’t ignore >1m Yessers, and hopefully all UK will benefit.

Congratulations no. You’ve become northern britain. Your Scotland died tonight and you rejected the chance to build something better..

Disagree. Independence wasn’t the only answer to the question 🙂

Very surprised that 1 in 4 Glaswegians didn’t vote after seeing the scenes on the streets these last few weeks, especially with the turnout in other areas.
What happened?

[Having said that, 75% would be high at any other time].

Andy Murray has come out as a Yes, citing ‘no campaign negativity’ as reason .

I’ve heard this a lot, but the more I think about it the more it sounds a strange way to decide, i.e. to make your decision based on the effectiveness or likeability of the salesman rather than the quality of the product.
We probably all do it to some extent in general life – I suppose it’s called marketing, but with a decision as big as this it is worrying.

Cracking speech.
(Johann Lamont sat behind him thinking “That’s my new boss”)

If it’s a ‘No’, what will the headlines be: ‘Gordon Brown – The Man Who Saved the Union’?

Shetlands again

Could ‘Westminster’ start stirring it in event of a Yes?

Oil-rich Shetland may want to reconsider whether it stays part of an independent Scotland in the event of a yes vote, the Scotland secretary, Alistair Carmichael, has said.

In an interview with the Guardian, Carmichael said if the islands were to vote strongly no but the Scottish national vote was a narrow yes, then a “conversation about Shetland’s position and the options that might be open to it” would begin.

The Liberal Democrat MP, who represents Orkney and Shetland in Westminster and has been secretary of state for Scotland in the coalition government since last October, said those options might include the islands modelling themselves on the Isle of Man, which is a self-governing crown dependency, or on the Faroe Islands, which are an autonomous country within the Danish realm.

Asked if he was suggesting that Alex Salmond should not necessarily take for granted that oilfields off Shetland will belong to Scotland in the event of a yes vote, he said: “That would be one of the things that we would want to discuss. I wouldn’t like to predict at this stage where the discussions would go.”

His comments were echoed by Tavish Scott, Shetland’s MSP, who when asked whether Shetland would have to obey the will of Scotland if it voted yes, said: “Will it now? We’ll have to look at our options. We’re not going to be told what to do by Alex Salmond.”

The option of becoming a crown dependency was “something we will look at”, Scott said, though he said he ruled out considering full independence for the islands.

The island archipelago, situated more than 100 miles north of mainland Scotland, has traditionally voted strongly against Scottish independence, in part because of its distinctive history: it was part of Norway until the 15th century and is closer to that country’s west coast than Edinburgh – in part because the oil industry has made it rich without particular assistance from Edinburgh.

Sullom Voe oil and gas terminal, in the north-west of the island group, is one of the largest in Europe, and handles production from more than two-dozen oilfields in the east Shetland Basin, between Shetland and Norway.

The Wee Blue Book, a widely distributed manifesto for the pro-independence campaign, states that Orkney and Shetland are “legally part of Scotland, and no more entitled to their own ‘local’ referendum result than Falkirk or Peterhead or Sauciehall Street”.

Carmichael said those comments showed no understanding of “Shetland’s historic and current political and cultural distinctiveness, and it just demonstrates the lack of respect and tolerance that there is among nationalists for community self-determination”.

He said: “I don’t want to suggest there’s an element of threat here because that’s not what this is about. But if the community wants to have a conversation about its position within Scotland and within the UK then we are entitled to do that. What I’m saying to people is: recognise that in this circumstance we might want to have that conversation for ourselves.”

Last week Murdoch said Salmond had private polling at Yes 54%, No 46%.

I’ll go with that.

Junkyard – lazarus
big_n_daft said » Spanish foreign minister confirms iS out of EU for at least 5 years etc etc

Source as nothing via Google

Just had a Spanish government minister on Newsnight who went through all the ‘hoops’ needed to join – said he reckoned 5 years. Said Junckers had said 5 years for a new member.
SNP chap disputed the process as Scotland could negotiate under a different ‘article’ as they would be negotiating from within.

Ask the people who live there – they’ll tell you in a couple of days…

Sorry, I thought you knew.

Scotland is not your country.

Whose country is it?
– Lived there on 2 September 2014?
– Didn’t live there on 2 September 2014, but do now?
– Lived there on 2 September 2014, but don’t now?
– Born there in 1967, but had to move away for work on 1 September 2014?
– Born in France, but in Scotland for work experience from August 2014 until December 2014?
– Never been there, but will wait to see how negotiations work out, and if I think I’ll be better off, I’ll move up there before independence day?
– Lived there when oil was discovered, but don’t now?

I’m not saying I didn’t think it needed cutting, but the ‘Spare Room Subsidy’? Come on?
No wonder, if that’s the level of strategic thinking and financial management our leaders are at, that if a group of people are given the chance to try something else, they take that chance!!

…..made difficult decisions others wouldn’t, I don’t see what the problem is.

WTFFFF!!!!!!. The ‘Bedroom Tax’!!!!!!

Doing what’s necessary (if that’s the case) isn’t always what’s popular

If, IF?

I give up.

teamhurtmore – Member
Summary: You can’t beat an idea/dream with facts – fight it with another idea/dream.

Is the modern political narrative confirmed to be on Friday night – a flawed philosophy in my view as the Euro project shows. It is an endictment on the modern political process and this is seen a progress that will somehow deliver a better society.

The world of candy floss dreams….

This advice is almost as bad as the advice given to GO about his hair. is it a rug?

This would only be a problem if you didn’t believe you had the facts on your side.
It’s no use being right, but losing?

The problem of the ‘what about the facts’ question is, I think, summed up in this by Alex Massie:
Facts vs An Idea[/url]

Summary: You can’t beat an idea/dream with facts – fight it with another idea/dream.

Travelled up to Ayr from England for the airshow [Lancasters didn’t turn up!!]. Stayed in DandG overnight. Went via A76, and from postings on here was expecting YES/NO bunting and posters everywhere – was disappointed – there was a YES gazebo in Thornhill and Ayr, and a bloke giving Labour NO leaflets out of a sack in Ayr. I saw a few YES posters in windows, but no NO posters and a few small YES stickers on lamposts. I saw one YES and one NO large placard in different roadside fields the whole journey.
At the airshow there was one YES and two NO stalls [one Labour No].
The YES’s were more active mingling with the crowds and looked more professional in YES tabards.
We walked past the YES and NO points in Ayr town centre and were not engaged or given anything – we must look obviously English 🙂

At the airshow a YES person asked my wife how she was voting – he must have ignored me and homed in on her as she is a redhead 🙂
He just grunted when she said she didn’t have a vote, but hoped Scotland would choose to stay in UK.

As I say I was disappointed as I expected it to be more high key, with people on soap boxes, etc 🙂

I thought the commentary at the air show was at times a subliminally pro UK when the military aircraft were flying. Lots of the use of ‘British’ – especially the commentary for the Vulcan and how it’s deterrent kept the Britain safe – some people would use the same words as a defence for Trident.

It’s mentioned on here how poor the NO campaign has been, they certainly look amateur from what I’ve seen in the media down in England, but has any of the Scottish contingent on here had their mind changed by a leaflet, advert or campaigner?

PS:
There is a guitar shop in Ayr called exactly what you’d want it to be called, and an Indian restaurant called ‘Ayr India’ 😀

Farage reckons that well over 50% of Scots live on benefits.

I’ll bet that more than 50% of the UK population “live on benefits of some kind”:
Pension
Housing benefit
Child benefit
Tax credit
Disability living allowance
Job seekers
etc

What percentage of the UK’s adult population is dependent on the welfare state?

The welfare state is a big part of British family life, with 20.3 million families receiving some kind of benefit (64% of all families), about 8.7 million of them pensioners. For 9.6 million families, benefits make up more than half of their income (30% of all families), around 5.3 million of them pensioners. The number of families receiving benefits will be between 1 and 2 million fewer now because of changes to child tax credits that mean some working families who previously got a small amount now get nothing.

The number of people who receive more in benefits and public services than they pay in tax is at record levels, official figures show.
More than half of households now take more from the public purse than they contribute, thanks to a generation of surging Government expenditure.
It has left a minority of middle class taxpayers bearing a growing share of the tax bill.
Well-off families now receive £1 in benefits and services for every £5.10 they contribute in tax.
Some 52 per cent of households, or 13.8 million families, received more in benefits and public services than they contributed in taxes last year, according to the Office for National Statistics.

Households with an average income of £104,000 paid £30,000 more in tax than they received from the state last year, ONS figures show.
The top ten per cent of earners contributed £26,984 in income and council tax, plus £10,303 in indirect taxes such as alcohol duty and VAT – a contribution to the public purse of £37,287.
They received £2,284 in state cash benefits, which include child benefit, maternity pay and pensions.
The cost of educating their children came to £1,274, while they used NHS treatment worth £3,410 – meaning their total cost to the Exchequer was £7,264.
By contrast, a family with the national median income of £23,069 received £3,798 more in benefits and services than they paid in taxes last year.
They paid £4,620 in direct tax and £5,029 in indirect taxes, but received £6622 in cash benefits. They received schooling worth £2623 and NHS services worth £4,202.
In total, they paid in £9,649 and received £13,477. It means for every £1 they paid in, they got £1.40 back.
The poorest ten per cent of families, with wages of £3,875 a year, paid £4,611 in direct and indirect taxes and received £13,559 in cash benefits and services. It means they received £2.94 in state support for every £1 they paid in tax.

Another one from today’s Guardian

I might be changing the vote I don’t have 😀

I don’t understand these things, but just read this:
Today’s Guardian

“Power corrupts….”

I agree with the ‘Westminster’ jibes, although I’m perhaps less critical and hold my nose a bit more during times of a government of the hue I prefer, but I don’t see any reason that it will be different in Scotland, and if it is, or can be, I don’t see why it can’t be in ‘Westminster’.
I don’t think that there is that much difference in the ideals of the the people who just happen to live on either side of a line on a map – there is the same mix of different outlooks, and opinions on how they should be achieved.

‘Westminster’ doesn’t have a monopoly on the wrong kind of people, they will gravitate to wherever there is an opening or opportunity.

…..chance to move away from the morally corrupt boys club of Westminster politics and start something new and the opportunity to move towards a fairer society.

I agree with the sentiment, but your view seems rather narrow. Is independence the right/best/only solution to the problem.
If there are other/better options, or independence eventually delivers more of the same [Scotland’s very own morally corrupt boys and girls club], kjcc25 may be right.

This posted previously seems to sum it up:

something must be done, this is something, therefore it must be done.

PS: I don’t know the answer to the problem 🙂

@scotroutes
You have obviously been keeping score 😀

epicyclo – Member
Yes please for the border though.

…and the divide? 😉

I’m following the referendum with interest, both for the general political intrigue, and the fact that I was/am considering retiring/semi-retiring to the Dumfries and Galloway area [currently live in Cumbria].

I’m of a slight left leaning persuasion, so understand not being pleased with the current Tory policies, the quoting of which seemed to get the biggest reactions during the Darling/Salmond debates – Bedroom Tax, NHS, child poverty, food banks. It would suggest that to a lot of people a big reason to vote for independence is to get rid of a transient Lib Dem/Tory coalition. I now wonder what the arguments and cheers would have been about if it was Labour government in power.

Also what seems to be coming to fore, which is disappointing, are the ‘we pay more into the UK than you do’ and ‘it’s our oil’ arguments.
I have never thought about whether I am paying in more or less into the UK [or EU] than I get out, or whether I am paying more or less than the average English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish resident. It now seems that a lot of people have been thinking about this, and are not happy. I now know from this thread that for the last 33 [or is it 34] years that the Scots have paid more than the average English person – thanks – I assume the situation has been different in the past, and will be different again at some point in the future if there is a ‘NO’ vote.

I now wonder what the proportions have been for the previous 200-odd years. Who was keeping score?

As for ‘it’s our oil’ – does anyone know what proportion of the UK natural resources that have been used to help finance the Union for the last 300 years have come from each constituent country – coal, tin, copper, iron ore, gas, oil, fish, men during the war, mill workers, miners, great thinkers….. I’ve no idea, but it seems someone should have been counting.
It seems churlish to say now that ‘it’s our oil’.

Good luck to Scotland whichever way the vote goes. I may still end up spending my retirement up there, but I hope the vote is ‘No’ as I would like to see the obvious passion stirred by this debate used to make the UK a better country [state?], and not to introduce another border/divide.

There are so many unknowns around both the Yes and No votes that no one really knows what they are voting for.

FTFY 🙂

scotroutes – Member
whimbrel »
THM and others seem to be suggesting that the people with all the money to lend won’t agree with your definition of an asset.

Oh well, if THM says that’s true then it must be

As I said, it appears to be a gamble.
Interesting times in the event of a Yes.

Surely it will only be deemed untrustworthy if there is no good reason for not contributing? If the reason is that iScotland wasn’t given a fair share of the assets then no one would expect them to contribute all of their part of the historic debt. Quid pro quo and all that.

Seems a reasonable position, but you are gambling that the people you want to lend you the money have the same definition of ‘good reason’.
THM and others seem to be suggesting that the people with all the money to lend won’t agree with your definition of an asset.

I assume that he will be living in Scotland on the requisite date, and therefore qualifies as Scottish for the purposes of this referendum and has a vote.
Is he not ‘Scottish’ enough for you?
What is your criteria?

Well, it’s made me decide I don’t care any more. I don’t care if we get a currency union, I don’t care if we get kicked out of the EU and NATO, I don’t care if it costs me money. I want out.

That Euro election result showed me that those are all prices worth paying to get away from the toxic, xenophobic politics south of the border.

Yep. All that kind of stuff is confined to south of the border. 🙂

PS: I thought you had already made up your mind, plus everyone’s you had spoken to 🙂

Ask to be allowed to have a £20K retention, payable when they have put right all the stuff that will be wrong with your house.
Ask them to pay you £30/hour for any time you need spend writing to them and chasing them up to get jobs redone to a reasonable standard after you have moved in.

If they won’t agree to the above, walk away, as they can’t be confident the house will be OK and/or sorted in any reasonable timescale – or you might be lucky.

Note: I have bought 3 ‘new builds’ in the past 🙁

What other interests do you have?

Outside biking, it’s the great outdoors really, although I’m struggling with the Cumbrian (down)hills due to ageing knees.

That’s a ‘thumbs down’ on new builds then. 🙂
The house in the link is way out of our price range.
Granted Dumfries may not be the most picturesque town, but it’s convenient to the places we like – Mabie, Dalbeattie, the coast in Rockliffe area, etc., and the house is reasonably priced, only needs to stay up until we get wheeled off to the care home, and we can visit all the nice places you mention. 😉

EDIT: Not disagreeing with you Trekster. Cross posts.
The houses ‘seem’ reasonably priced compared to where I’m living now.

Well I’m an engineer on the front line in Openreach. It makes F-all difference as to which service provider is written on the job notes. We treat them all with the contempt that being an effective monopoly allows.

🙂

Of course, I wonder which M.Thatcher of Grantham personally donated £20k to the Nelson Mandela foundation? Probably not the “grubby little terrorist one”.

Context from the link:
“He could charm the birds off the trees—and cash right out of wallets. He told me once how Margaret Thatcher had personally donated £20,000 to his foundation. “How did you do that?” I gasped. The Iron Lady, who was famously frugal, kept a tight grip on her purse. “I asked,” he said with a laugh. “You’ll never get what you want if you don’t ask.” Then he lowered his voice conspiratorially and said her donation had nauseated some of his cohorts. “Didn’t she try to squash our movement?” they complained. His response: “Didn’t De Klerk crush our people like flies? And I’m having tea with him next week … He’ll be getting the bill.” (On other occasions, I heard Mandela praise the courage of F.W. de Klerk, the last President of apartheid South Africa, who had his own prison to escape: the prejudice of his upbringing. We should not forget his role in this historic drama).”

You’ve got to laugh at cynical-al’s indignant post.
He obviously believes everything politicians say [or is it just the PM], or doesn’t understand how politics works at times.

May I suggest a quaint old programme called ‘Yes, Minister’ as a starter, before moving on to ‘The Thick of It’ – hopefully he won’t be too disgusted/outraged.

Also, suggest name change to ‘gullib-al’

This suggests NHS will fund overseas treatment. I sure they must have applied, but just in case…
NHS – Overseas PBT

Good Luck!!

She did ok that Grocers daughter from Grantham

“I think it’s inspiring that a grocer’s daughter climbed to the top of the Conservative Party, after marrying a millionaire.” 🙂
[J Hardy – twitter]

The way I read it it’s going to cost £1.2bn just to get out of the US market [They are also getting out of Japan]. Wouldn’t it be better if the retail genius that is the chairman earned his corn and identified the problems, put a strategy in place and turned the business around, or has he looked at this and said, ‘Nah, it’s too hard for me’.
I could close a business and wouldn’t charge them much for the privilege.

It’s easy to close a loss making business – you don’t need to be a genius to do that.

Why are you switching it off in the first place? Just leave it on?

Apologies. When I said ‘off’ I meant ‘standby’ [Both TV and Humax].