Wages have been kept deliberately low for the last thirty years

I dont understand. wages rise when employers compete for available labour. Despite recent rising prices the amount of disposable income spent on food/fuel etc has reduced as a proportion of income. Wages will fall in some sectors as unemployment rises.
In recent years the opposite of what you say has happened given the introduction of the minimum wage.

Giving money to banks to lend money to individuals isn’t the Keynesian way I think?

Thats not what Keynes (or anybody else)is saying. Giving money to failing banks is not public spending. That money is loaned with a view to making a profit on the return.

I’ve heard that before and frankly its depressing and unnecesary. Keep it to yourself.

MT. I was there, in the 70’s and 80’s. Whats your point?

Skidartist is right. It is down to an individuals marginal prospensity to consume.

The amount people spend on staples is relatively fixed. For example somebody on £35k probably spends the same as somebody on £50k. If the person £50 was to receive a pay rise of £150k then they would only spend a marginal amount of this extra on staples.

Giving money to individuals would just mean it would be saved and not spent, given the current climate. Thats why money needs to be spent on wealth creating projects such as road building etc by the Government.

LOL at Billyboulders!

am with snowslave on this one, why does the government think we can spend our way out of a reccession by borrowing more money

Keynes my dear boy!

Realise what lots of the rest of us did that it was an unsustainable bubble, and not go round borrowing lots of money on the basis of projected future government income based largely on said bubble.

Where does Government spending come in? The rise in house prices is dependant on lots of factors not really government policy related. Interest rates are a significant factor (or where) in determining the cost of borrowing. Once in independant hands they could not be used as an economic lever as they were used by the previous Tory government.

Being “bred” in is not the same as learned behaviour. We need role models to help us make the right moral and ethical decisions when sometimes they are less clear.
For example we dont really need anyone to tell us that punching somebody in the nose is socially and morally unnaceptable for all but a few occasions.
During the 80’s thatcher made it morally acceptable (even a virtue) of exploiting others whenever the opportunity arose.
This was a direct response to her economic advisors of the time who preached laissez faire attitudes. The market would take care of itself and should be left to find its own equilibrium. Fortunately (Friedman unlike Marx) has been proved wrong (mostly)

I understand Brown was the first of the G8 to formally recommend the expansionary economic policies that all of the others have now adopted. Germany, the largest European economy, has committed more money than the UK. Are all of these experienced economic brains wrong?

As for Gordon Brown becoming a recent advocate of Keynsian economics this is not true. He maintained the spending plans of his predecesor (Ken Clarke) in 97 and we all benefited from the increase in tax receipts during the tail end of the 90’s. He then expanded public spending ahead of economic growth at the time, all good Keynsian stuff!!

Marx would say that human beings are inately benevolent.

Its interesting that when we come across some particularly nasty behaviour we put it down to “human nature” I think much of it is nurture not nature. So to some extent she and her like legitimised this behavior in the 80’s.

Bloody big flakes here on the Wirral, I’m working from home but the sleds coming out!

I’m no Tory supporter but Portillo would be a more popular addition. He is clearly bright but also quite charismatic.

Clarke will simply be sidelined discussing his views on Europe, whether he wants to or not.

I recall Mandy was instrumental in New labours success in 97. I dont recall Clarke being part of such a winning formula?

Like Mikes idea, lets bring back conscription and invade.

Michael Portillo would be a more effctive addition to the Tory shadow cabinet.

Interesting that he is being touted as a "big beast" especially by the party that overlooked him for the leadership twice and chose two candidates that had very little experience!

If he was such a strong figure, and you can leave aside the Euro, why has he been sidelined for so long?

I’ve got a Peugeot 307SW with 7 seats, boring as a boring thing with boring bits on but been pretty faultless, 55mpg on a run (60 if I get really anal) all the toys etc.

I joined a few weeks back in a moment of incredible boredom. Thats an hour I’ll never get back!

Crisp butties!

I broke 2 0r 3 in a XC race a few years back. They were improving after about 3 weeks when I sneezed! How we laughed!

2 miles to wor! run backwards and forwards 4 times morning and evening. The weight will fall off!

Good luck fella.

Although Maggie was magnanamous in allowing us to buy shares in the companies we and our parents had supported through our taxes, the share owning democracy, what a joke that was.

Nice one Ernie!

Printing money is a rational economic strategy, if done wisely.

However dont let that fact get in the way of an opportunity to compare our country with Zimbabwe and Argentina!

Alwyn you have a selective recollection of the 80’s/90’s. I was there where you?
With regard to coal production of the 80’s it could have been mined and given away for free and still made a profit if it had been given the same subsidies as North sea oil. The decision to close the mines was a political one based on the increasing power of the trade unions, not an economic one.

With regard to the multiplier the way you refer to it indicates you dont know what it means. It is not a static thing it is dependant on other factors within the economy consequently the delay between government spending and the impact on what you and I perceive is variable.

If you have studied economics (unless you are a Monetarist) you will understand the paradox of thrift. This means rational individuals should save during bad times but Governments should spend. If Governments do not spend now (and almost every European country agrees on this point including Europes largest economy, Germany) then the recession will be significantly worse and will last a lot longer. The Conservatives ridiculous macro economic policy of "purse string tightening" may appeal to the daily mail readers but it would be disasterous if it where to happen.

The recession of the 80’s I recall was less based on external factors than this one and the economic experts in power then responded by fighting inflation at the cost of jobs and raising interest rates to over 15%. They were raised twice in one day!!! Cant believe they are giving lessons today!

You guys really have too much time on your hands. Bit like the Chavs in question really!

Will do Sofatester, we used that club last time and it was great.

Thanks

Kids are the biggest impediment IMO. Even when you do have some spare time big days out still bring guilt!

At cost?????

You MAC evangelists! :wink:

Rudeboy, what size screen do you get with that?

The definition of a distance runner (Brendan Foster) wake up tired and go to bed exhausted!!!

Most of the soreness will be related to impact and using slightly different muscle groups. 1 hr on your feet is quite a long time. I would suggest varying both the pace and the distance to get the most benefit.

Dont mention heart rate training!

Dell’s are fine, not sure why you have been warned off them I dont buy anything else for the company I work for.

Having said that if its for home use I would buy a laptop with a nice big screen that gives you the option to move it around a bit if you need to later.

Ahhhhh Warrington, playground of the rich and famous!

Unfortunatley the first one to take a principled stance will be hugely disadvantaged financialy in relative terms. This means it possibly wont be tackled until it is too late.

I will be vacationing in Runcorn this year!

Th EU enviromental requirements are pre requisite I understand, judging by the debate last night. If they are not reached the expansion wont take place.