Phew! What a day. Gutted for Bradley – and he’d done so much prep before this tour (couldn’t believe he’d lost even more weight!). Pretty bad for young Geraint as well – dropped well down in the rankings now. Impressive display from
the HTC boys – formulaic but so effective! Cav’s comments about his team and his reaction to first hearing the news about Wiggins were spot on.

Been pretty eventful so far, can’t believe we’re only at Stage 7.

(…. wanders off to fettle road bike before long ride through the mountains over Pen y Pass tomorrow – living out my TdF fantasies :) )

So nice to see you guys showing such an appreciation of wildlife … my ecologist / conservation colleagues would be most impressed.

Can’t believe that no-one’s posted a picture of a Shag yet :)

I’m probably 60 – 70% riding on the road (road cycling / commuting / touring) 30% mtb’ing, so more ‘roadie’ stuff on here suits me.

As others have said, there isn’t really any other forums which are as active (or as amusing!) as this one.

And anyway, I cycle on ‘singletrack’ roads a lot of the time, so it still counts :)

Guys make sooo much fuss about shaving their legs :) easy – just use a lady shave!

And the real reason … well guys seem to prefer girls with shaved legs!

Just checked my bike and I’ve got the 49 tricross (there is a 46, but I do t think they import that size I to the uk). Strangely the Tricross has a relatively short top tube for a 49 frame as the ETT is 516. This is a more ‘female’ geometry than other ‘unisex’ bikes and compares well to my women’s specific road bike (48 frame and 506 ETT). Just checked the bars and cranks as well – Tricross has 400 width bars and 700 cranks, my women’s road bike has 380 bars and 650 cranks.

Overall my road bike is a perfect fit for me, the Tricross is slightly bigger but actually very comfortable to ride and might be spot on if Mrs M is 5’1″ as I am a mere 5′!

Sorry for burbling on with lots of measurements, but thought it might be of help if you’re looking at other bikes too. Offer to meet is no problem, I know how hard it can be as a ‘smaller than average person’ to ever test rides bikes!

Selfish – for my brother to not have been born with severe multiple disabilities (and yes it counts as selfish as the thing that would make me happiest is to see him able to live a life free from pain and enjoying some of the ‘normal’ things we all take for granted)

Bike – to build up the fitness I’m going to need to do the TransAm next year

General – to have a world where everyone just cares a bit more, with compassion and empathy, and less ridicule and criticism (failing that, can I have the pick of the dino-sharks? I’d quite like the cutest and friendliest one as a pet …)

Monksie – if the concept store doesn’t have one in the right size I could meet up with you and Mrs M in Chester so she can try mine (will give me an excuse to go for a ride along the coast!)

I’m currently running quite road-orientated 25c tyres on it and a pannier rack as it’s my commuting bike as well, but I think the standard spec comes with 32c which are chunky enough for off-road.

Not sure of Mrs M’s proportions, but I have quite long legs (relatively given that I’m only 5′!) and a shorter torso – so need a fairly ‘female’ geometry. I personally found a 520 top tube too long – but I guess that just highlights that even at around the same height we can fit different sized bikes.

Monksie – I’m at work at the moment (ahem … not just posting on STW!), will check bike size when I get home tonight. I’ve still got the ‘standard’ bars and cranks on it as they aren’t so far off as to cause significant problems but would be better if I had the same as I have on my women’s specific road bike – I’ll check them as well when I get home.

I’m in north Wales but often trundling around the country.

Monksie – I’m 5′ and I spent ages looking into this a couple of years ago. The only alternatives I could find that I really loved were custom builds, so far too expensive for me. Got a small tricross in the end (mainly cos someone I knew was selling one secondhand). Having thought it was just ‘ok’, I now love it and it’s often the bike I grab first as it’s so versatile (although riding some of the Marin trail on it was possibly pushing it a bit too far).

So don’t dismiss it for being not particularly exciting – it’s a good allround bike and would be perfectly suitable for the sort of riding you mention. Just a couple of things you might want to consider changing on it for a small woman – shorter cranks and a women’s specific bar (I find it a bit awkward to get into the drops)

if she wants to test ride one, she’s more than welcome to try mine (depending on where you are based)

los – yup, I think that just about sums it up :)

Another newbie roadie – followings binners sense of ‘style’, so peak on helmet – yup; baggies – yup; not even managed mtb spd, riding on flat pedals (quelle horreur! Actually even I’m a bit embaressed about that one); shaved legs – erm yup, but only cos I’m a girl.

But even worse I usually smile at everyone, or if I’m really happy about being out riding I just want to share the love and beam and wave at other roadies :)

And I did overtake a full on roadie guy the other day – I was so chuffed cos I’m never faster than anyone that after I’d overtaken him, I slowed down to have a chat!

Kev – good suggestion, worked for me!

(although Elf talked loblocks … I, as usual, was erudite, witty and insightful … at least that was how it appeared to me after a pint or two …)

Think that London’s alright now, it’s just not as good as north Wales :)

Was worth legging it back from my ride* tonight to watch the highlights – back at the house by 7.02 – bike in the lounge, tv on in the nick of time, trying to watch whilst my head’s upside down doing post-ride yogic stretchy things :) good effort from Hushovd today.

*was also worth legging it as I overtook a fully paid up member of the roadie squad who looked slightly upset as I was (a) wearing mtb shorts, and (b) still had the peak on my helmet

mboy – YGM (although sorry not much help re what bike / tyres!)

Elfinsafety – LOL! Thanks :)

Solo – if you’re trying to have some kind of dig at me, please just come out and say it.

Sharki

I’d rather meet someone whilst out and about doing the things i love whilst i’m being me

– with you on that one :)

Sharki / TJ – STW ‘speed dating’ and you’re already swapping tables – some of us are still hovering around the doorway checking out what’s going on before deciding whether to venture inside! On reflection, there’s no way I’m going in! The thought of speed dating / blind dates / t’internet sites etc really doesn’t appeal 8O

Fully respect that everyone is different, but I know that I couldn’t be in a relationship where we spent all our time together. I travel loads for work and socially, often away for several days or a week or more. Sometimes that’s great, and I’ve been lucky enough to travel to some amazing places (off to conferences in Amsterdam and Switzerland later this year), sometimes it’s hard as I’m stuck in a city on my own – but have decided to enlist the help of STW to meet up with folks in different places in the future :)

Don’t really want a relationship at the moment – I’m happy having the freedom to do what I want, go off travelling and having adventures, and taking the time to find out a bit more about who I am and what I want from life. It’s great to meet up with new people, but I’d hate the idea of that being some kind of pre-arranged ‘blind date’ and would rather just get to know folks through doing things I enjoy. Don’t really want to spend the rest of my life living like a nun, but having my autonomy and independence is more important to me right now.

Can’t believe they disqualified them both! It must be impossible to ride that close in a race without ever touching.

Love the Tour though – it’s like a cycling soap opera :)

Grumlethegoat – a couple of years ago I went down with swine flu (remember that ‘epidemic’!) – pretty ill for about 2 weeks, and then just went back to work / activities as normal. For me the ‘as normal’ at that point was working really long hours, renovating a house, and doing a lot of outdoor activities (biking / fell-running etc). I felt pretty shit, but just carried on and then went crashed out for nearly 24 hours after trying to go for a long ride in the mountains.

I was lucky – my Dr recognised it as Post Viral Fatigue straight away, and the organisation I work for has a really good Occupation Health advisor. Every case is different, but the following might be of use / help to you:

– the key is manage your activity so you achieve an ‘even keel’ and avoid ‘peaks’ and ‘troughs’ of energy – ie you do things and then end up flaked out.

– start by keeping an ‘energy’ (or lack of!) diary – ie record when you have peaks and troughs, and see if they are associated with certain time periods or if they co-incide with doing stuff for a particular period of time.

– Use that as a basis for reviewing how and when you do stuff, so that you stop or reduce your activities before you ‘crash’

– I made a list of all the activities I did in the 3 areas of my life – work, domestic, leisure. For each of these sort out which activities can just be stopped, which can be delegated to someone else, and which you have to do. Make sure you include some pleasurable things in the ‘have to do’ list, not just work or doing the hoovering!

I worked part-time for 3 months, then gradually built my hours back up. Accepted just doing ‘gentle’ activities for a while (and learnt how to enjoy just being outdoors and appreciating time with friends), then slowly increased this. It took me 6 months to ‘feel’ that I was better, and 12 months before I actually was back on full form. Now I’m back to normal and bounce around biking, hiking, climbing etc (and unfortunately still a work-a-holic – must try and stop that before I go down with PVF again!).

Finally, don’t underestimate the mental effects of PVF – not only are your physical energy levels lower, but so can your mental and emotional capacity be reduced. I found it very difficult to cope with many things and had severe anxiety attacks. I didn’t realise that it was connected with PVF and just felt worse as on top of everything I just felt I was being ‘flakey’. So please try and get as much support from your friends / family / work as possible, and explain that it effects you both emotionally and physically.

If you want to chat about it contact me on suewilliamsouATyahooDOTcoDOTuk

Kev – I finished the cheese after you left … hangs head in shame at my lack of willpower … and now have an excess of crackers.

Thanks for showing me round the Orme tonight – sorry I squeaked like a girl when my wheels left the ground!

Doing the double – road ride this morning, mountain biking this evening, with a siesta in the middle and a beer at the end!

Just loving this weather :)

Kev – it’s not just the amount of cheese, it’s getting the cheese / cracker / wine balance synchonised … if you’ve got left with excess cheese on your plate, you need to get more crackers, but then you end up needing more wine to go with it. Trouble is that gets repeated – it’s hard to simultaneously finish your cheese, crackers and wine … so the inevitable effect is I end up a bit pissed and full :)

Right, off for a road ride now, so please can we have an easy mountain bike this evening cos myblegs will be knackered! We could bin off the post ride pub as I have crackers AND cheese here, plus cold beer and wine :)

It sure was (once I’d (ahem) dealt with my hangover!) Had a fantastic ride up the hilly back roads from
Conwy to Betws y Coed, back down the valley and then round the cliffs and headland of the Great Orme. Coastal riding is the best :)

Bianchi Boy – I’m going to be over in Norfolk visiting my folks in a few weeks time – will have my road bike with me and planning on heading out for a few rides. Have you got any suggested routes? Will be based in Dereham and then Diss, but was thinking of heading from there towards the coast.

Right, several pints of water consumed – managed to get out of bed. Some very strong coffee and I’ve got my biking kit together.

It was all going so well, but I’ve just eaten a big bowl of fruit and yogurt … bad idea … really bad :(

Stop mentioning being sick!!!!

Elfinsafety … you can’t possibly imagine how wanton we can be in Conwy :) (or maybe not … suddenly worried about the depths of your imagination)

Scienceofficer – no I suspect that we’re not going to see eye to eye on this, but in a way that’s kind of OK – the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed (of course, it would obviously be better if you agreed with me!). Good on you though for having a reasonable debate, and I can see what you’re saying. I was going to say that I would have preferred it if you hadn’t been quite so patronising (and if you met me I suspect ‘wilting flower’ might be the last phrase you’d use!), but given that I was somewhat rude and said ‘your attitude sucks’ I suspect I can’t really complain :)

mboy – yup PVS / CFS is a tough one – glad that I’m over it now but it did take a really long time. A lot of ‘friends’ faded away when I had it cos I could no longer get out at the same level, but interesting some of the best riders I know stayed in touch and we’d head off on rides together – I guess that’s the difference between ‘friends who ride’ and ‘not-friends who ride’ :)

Scienceofficer – you’re right I did deliberately use a very different example as I wanted to try and break the view that this is just about women, but that attitudes about not wanting to include those who aren’t ‘good enough’ affect many people, including those with disabilities.

I don’t think I mis-interpreted you, especially this part:

“I don’t care who I ride with as long as they can keep up, since the slow/beginners ruin a ride by introducing too much waiting and curtailing the kind of trails that can be ridden. I’ve got no interest in bringing more people into mtbing – there are too many on the trails already.

Similarly, I expect to be left behind if I ride with a group with skills and fitness beyond my own.”

A few points that maybe you will consider to be more relevant, and less ‘disingenuous’ :)

– one of the frequent comments I hear from women is that they don’t go out with local clubs becuase they are worried about holding them up / being too slow / ruining someone’s ride. I think that it is something of a shame that people don’t join in becuase they don’t feel that they are good enough. And how many people then don’t progress in their riding, or drop out altogether, becuase they don’t have access to the social side of riding? Incidently, many of these women are actually reasonable riders, but I guess if they’ve heard someone making comments like yours, then they certainly wouldn’t want to chance it. Personally, I get a buzz out of riding with someone who’s newer to biking – it’s great to see them grinning and enjoying themselves no matter how slow or easy the ride.

– what about people who are injured or develop an illness or condition that could affect their riding? Should they then not ride with others any more cos they’ll hold them up? there are many examples of people on this forum who are in that position. A while ago I put forward a suggestion on another biking forum (interestingly one that is mainly frequented by women), for post-injury / easy / social rides – they’ve become pretty popular for a wide range of riders :)

– also your phrase ‘similarly I would expect to be left behind’ does imply that you find it perfectly acceptable to be ‘dropped’, or similarly to ‘drop others’ from a group ride if they are not keeping up. How dangerous can that be? As an example a few years ago I had post viral fatigue – I didn’t know at that point as it hadn’t diagnosed, but the people who I was riding with knew that I’d been ill. we got half way roudn the ride, high in the mountains and I couldn’t keep up any more. They left me to find my own way down, whilst they went off on the rest of the ride. at the time I thought that was perfectly acceptable, as I didn’t want to ‘ruin their ride’ but talking to some mountaineering friends afterwards I found they were completely shocked. (oh and incidently one of those people was my long-term partner at that point, who was a perfect example of the ‘if you’re not good enough I don’t want to ride with you at any point’ brigade).

Scienceofficer and GW – thanks for reminding me of why I generally don’t particulary like the mtb’ing world any more, and why I do more mountaineering / climbing etc where such attitudes don’t exist (yes, people in those activities want to push themselves to their limits at beyond, but they’re also keen to encourage and help others, and would never, ever leave anyone behind in the mountains – in fact that would be considered to be not only selfish but utterly incompetent behaviour).

But before you just bracket me into the ‘sour grapes / uptight female’ category, lets try another example that illustrates why I think both your attitudes suck:

My brother was born with profound and multiple disabilities – the list of details would take far to long, but surfice to say he has very limited physical ability (including things such as deformed skeletal structure, lack of co-ordiantion and balance etc). However, he’s also the person who’s taught me the most about real courage, effort, overcoming a huge amount of pain (after a lifetime of continuous operations) and positivity. We’ve always just mucked in together and helped out, at times literally carrying him up mountains between us so he can join in, and then a while ago he wanted to try cycling. Now if we all had the attitude of Scienceofficer, it would have been ‘tough’ – you can’t keep up, and frankly we don’t want you cluttering up the ‘supposedly’ already busy trails. Fortunately thanks to lots of support and help from volunteers and us as his family, he now cycles loads, and a couple of years ago took part in the Special Olympics and won a gold medal in the cycling Time Trial – but then for GW that would propably just be even more of a ‘sideshow’.

So for me it’s not ‘all-inclusive hand-wringing’ – its about having basic human decency to help others where and when you can (and yes, within that’s there’s still plenty of time and opportunity to do you own thing and push yourself to you own limits). Biking with my brother is a real laugh – it might take 3 of us just to get him upright on the back of a tandem, but after that he’s as competative as any other guy and is well up for riding the rough stuff!

Right, made another appointment with the GP for Friday – will try requesting a referal to an appropriate specialist (orthopedic consultant?), and hopefully take it from there. I know I have pain and restricted mobility in that hip, so something is going wrong, just want to have confidence in the diagnosis and then know how to move on.

In the meantime I have bikes to ride and mountains to climb :) thanks especially to those of you who’ve spoken about the arthritis or other joint conditions that you have – much respect for how you are managing the pain and are still out there being active and having fun – just the kind of positive examples I need!

Thanks for the replies – I’m certainly taking the approach of wanting to keep on doing everything (and hopefully do more!)

So who do I go to for an accurate diagnosis? I originally went to my GP who after 2 minutes just said, oh I think it’s its proabably tight abductor tendons (after asking me hardly any questions) and to ‘just stop walking on rough ground’ (erm I spend every weekend up in the mountains!). So that was why I went to an osteopath .. but now it would appear that he’s not qualified to diagnose this. Who do I see now? Is it something I can ask for on the NHS?

Oh, and happily* single … probably due to not being a proper girl and going out biking rather than shopping, plus being a bit of a research spod … I suspect neither are considered particularly sexy by the majority of guys!

* most of the time – having a bit of a blip today as I’m trying to deal with some rather bad news and a hug or shoulder to lean on would be kinda nice right now … but I’m going to WTFU and go out for a ride now ..,

You’re right, a bigger sample would be much better! Unfortunately it really expensive to run ‘human’ surveys, and I can’t see my budget getting any bigger over the next few years.

The down side is that in some areas, the sub-sample sizes are too small for statistically robust analysis. One of those areas is in relation to ‘non- white’ demographic groups. Collectively, only 2% of the adult population in Wales is from non-White ethnic groups, so I can’t do any analysis. Especially as there is obviously a huge diversity of different ethnic groups and cultures within that 2%, and assuming that all of them are the same would be rather wrong!

There’s been some interesting qualitative research that’s been done on perceptions and preferences of different ethnic groups towards participation in outdoor pursuits and use of the ‘countryside’. But overall I think our starting point should be to understand people’s preferences first, and then consider whether what is currently offered as ‘outdoor recreation’ today really meets the needs of the diversity of people in the UK, or just the preferences of a traditional minority?

mboy – final sample size of 6045, achieved from a 21% response rate. It is representative of the adult population (16+) living in Wales, whilst the English and Scottish surveys are similarly representative of their adult populations. Generally, there is no standard minimum, eg 10% of population, for a representative sample, as the sample size is dependent on the amount of change you are wanting to measure, and therefore on the confidence intervals, which are in turn affected by weighting for bias. Bias is in itself dependent on your sampling technique and the weighting you use (we have to use two different weights for different question sections within the survey).

The sampling a weighting of the Welsh survey has been particularly complex in order to ensure it is statistically valid at a population level as we need the data to also be representative of overlapping geographical regions (and developing a sampling and weighting frame for overlapping areas is a bit of a ‘mare!). I’m the Head of Social Science here, so have a reasonable grasp of statisitcs, but my main areas of expertise are on research development, analysis and interpretation, not pure statistics, so for this one I commissioned the Chief Statistician at Ipsos Mori (probably the largest survey company in the UK) to work on ensuring it is representative. It’s also classified as ‘official statistics’ (to be used in government policy) so has to pass the standards and scrutiny of the independent UK Statistics Authority.

I think I have now out-spodded myself!

poly – the data comes from a national household survey on participation in all outdoor pursuits / recreation which is run by the agency I work for (we are a government funded body that act as independent advisors at the national level). There are 3 of these surveys in the UK – I am responsible for managing the one for Wales, and co-ordinate with my colleagues who run similar surveys in England and Scotland.

All the surveys are methodologically the same as other national surveys that you might have heard of (eg the British Crime Survey). They have very large sample sizes, use RDD (a form of statistical random selection), and are subsequently weighted to be representative of the current population demographics. This means that although over 6000 people were interviewed, their responses are representative of the population as a whole. It’s rare to have data which is this robust as it’s very expensive and time consuming to do, so most other surveys use a smaller number of respondents and less robust sampling techniques, which unfortunately compromises the validity of the results. This makes collecting statistically valid data on schemes like BtW rather difficult, so I tend to use macro-scale data from national surveys to monitor participation and change.

In terms of what counted as ‘participating’, the survey I work on uses 3 levels of questions – one asks about what outdoor activities you have undertaken at least once in the last 12 months, then what you have done in the last 4 weeks, and finally what activity you have done most recently. What we have found is that the ‘gender difference’ gets greater between the 12 month / 4 week frequency – ie women’s participation relative to mens drops significantly between ‘occassional’ and ‘frequent’ participation. Defining different forms of cycling was quite complicated (as it was for many other types of outdoor pursuits). After a lot of preparatory research, we used to ‘main categories’ – defined as ‘off-road cycling and / or mountain biking’, and ‘road / tarmac cycle-path based cycling’. Under these primary categories we have a range of sub-categories that enable me to identify the type of off-road cycling / mountain biking that has been done (ie whether it was using an unsurfaced cycle track, bridleway, or purpose-build single track).

I’m currently just reviewing some very extensive results of detailed multivariate analysis on participation in both mountain biking and road cycling, that will be looking at the statisically significant differences in participation across all socio-demographic groups, motivations, barriers, latent demand, and other factors such as the distance poeple travel to ride and who they ride with. If you want to know more (before I send the entire forum to sleep!), contact me at work: su.williams@ccw.gov.uk

epicsteve – you’re wife’s first comment is interesting. I’ve heard friends who mtb often say ‘if you don’t crash you’re not trying hard enough’. For me that’s part of the ‘macho’ side of mtb’ing that really puts me off – pain and injury doesn’t appeal to me and pictures that some mtb’ers appear to love to display of their injuries only reinforces that gung-ho bravado.

Interestingly, when I road ride / scramble / climb etc no-one says ‘if you don’t crash you’re not trying hard enough’ or that injury is part of the activity (although it is helpful in climbing to practise / get used to falls so that when they happen in ‘real life’ you’re better prepared – similarly it’s good to practise capsize and rescues when kayaking)

I’m not sure if it’s a ‘personal to me’ thing, or associated with being female, but I prefer mtb’ing that’s more xc, out in the hills, doesn’t need body armour / full face helmets, and is more about enjoying the lanscape than focusing on technical aspects of a trail. Unsurprisingly I’m therefore not a big fan of FC trail centres!

mboy – now is my favouritist person for being envious of my job :) although the best bit is not the number crunching but the fact the survey I’m responsible for counts as ‘official statistics’ which means I can tell the government to pee off as they aren’t allowed the data until I’m happy to release it to the public (a small but significant victory to the likes of people like me!)

Tempted to ignore Mr Elfinsafety for referring to me as ‘some bird’ but as he has redeemed himself by mentioning a degree of awe, then am prepared to bore him a bit more … it is very difficult to determine what is ‘inherent’ and what is ‘socially constructed’ (and neither of which explain the likes of me or other girls who bike). It’s probably more useful to therefore consider whether it is something that should be addressed? In my mind, yes. Mainly because there are significant health benefits from being physically active which are currently not bring equally gained by women.

TJ – based on a sample size of 1 (me!) then your assessment is correct :)

oh and Poly re: ‘in general women that mtb are better looking than the average population’ – I’m afraid from my experience that might be a minority view – I’ve been told I’m not feminine cos I don’t wear enough make up and another ‘friend’ insisted I wore stockings at her wedding cos I was bound to have bruises or cuts on my legs and that ‘wouldn’t look good’!

< uber-spod mode on > actually fishing isn’t the most popular outdoor activity, walking is. And both mtb’ing and road cycling are more than twice as popular as fishing < uber-spod mode off … well not really – I rarely get a justifiable opportunity to bore people with stat’s and facts outside of my social scientist circles >

‘nature’ v ‘nurture’ – mmm … biological determinism is always tricky ground. Instread I’ll duck behind the protection of research which has found that (a) women have less available leisure time than men and spend a greater proportion of their ‘non-work’ time doing domestic chores; (b) women have a higher level of participation in activities that have family or ‘social’ associations; (c) that women are more ‘other’ orientated than men when it comes to expressing their recreational preferences – ie they are more likely to shape their activities to what others want to do than what they want to do themselves.

(have realised that personally I don’t fit with (a), (b), or (c), thus being known in research terms as an outlier or anomoly …)

I am curious as to how mountain biking would have developed if it had been a predominantly female activity – would if have become more orientated towards endurance, or low risk technique, than gnarly tech?

In the UK – the Carneddi mountains in Snowdonia

Worldwide – Fruita, Colorado

Crikey – the data is the most up to date available from 2009, currently running the next round of 12 months survey work which will give me the next complete dataset for analysis by mid 2012