@lozbrown

loads “missed” but then you’d not cover them all in a weekend anyway

most stuff isn’t on Trailforks or Strava – around Peaslake that’s because no one who digs regularly on the hurtwood crew uses either and we aren’t paying for a subscription in order to post.

There is loads over winterfold and also past leith hill at Redlands (Redlands is mainly nirvana digging) also I can’t give the official names for some trails and features anyway as I’ll be banned if the filter doesn’t catch them.

I’ll take a deeper look thanks

The one linked is a 9mm ID so it’s a RT or above.  The basic R is a 6mm ID (it’s just got a simple needle that’s thinner)

i don’t strictly need the ML3 the ML would be fine assuming I have the actual shims for it.

It’s the older version of this I’m looking for.  

In the end I just put a 6120 on (£50 with a free lever and hose )… had to cut the banjo off so never bothered trying to go back.  Still got it so if I end up with another broken 4pot I’ll maybe resurrect it.  

kilo

The manifesto clearly stated

Make 20mph the default speed limit in residential areas …

So show me the link and when they said it’s to save 6-10 lives per year…
I find it hard to believe any significant number of people voted for them knowing that

matt_outandabout

At the end of the day, you disagree with the policy. Fine, I accept that.

Nope I disagree with the way it was put through by deception.
I’m against the smug slimy git just saying he refuses to review it … the whole “LOL you voted for it”
Having scum like that in a position of power makes me sick to my stomach.

I suspect they did consider it.
But decided you and the others who signed it were wrong.
So no debate.

What makes you think I signed it? What makes me sick is your attitude that these scum get to decide what everyone else has to do… to dismiss a huge number of the electorate and laugh in their faces.

Don’t worry, my kid leaves home in 5 years and I’ll be checking out permanently .

slowoldman

He’s got one job and that is to do the will of the electorate

Interesting point but given that in the UK a government is generally elected by a minority it is clearly not the case that the government acts to do the will of the electorate (or at least the majority of the electorate).

Clearly the system needs changing…
Essentially its a lot of the least unpopular wins give or take but that is then used by all parties to make empty promises and hide how they are going to fulfil the ones they want and pretend they have a mandate for something they deceived the electorate on.

This is fundamentally why I’m opposed to this 20mph limit… what matters is would people have voted if they had told them the details.

Kamakazie

Wishes of the electorate? They were voted in with this in their manifesto.

Was that part only available in Welsh? I don’t see any mention of saving 6-10 lives a year by a blanket 20mph restriction

molgrips

Also, it’s not necessarily the case that everyone opposes the limits. I have found two polls, one suggesting the public support it and one suggesting they don’t.

So have a referendum with the facts laid out.

I suspect that the number who don’t support it will be pretty small in 10 years’ time, they are just grumpy pants right now.

So what…. its totally irrelevant if it isn’t what people want now.
That is so deeply disturbing.. do you really mean people should be forced to accept something because you or someone superior to them has decided what’s best for them?

matt_outandabout

Six to ten lives saved and 1000-2000 people saved from injury a year in Wales alone.

So was that their election manifesto? Six to ten lives saved per year for a blanket 20mph speed limit?
Thought not because they know full well they wouldn’t have been elected on that basis.

Are you really encouraging violence against a politician? Wow.

I’m saying let those he betrayed decide…actions and lies have consequences.

cookea

Is it? We already know about 52% of people are **** maniacs don’t we 😉

I get that… and I’m not for chucking referenda at everything like Switzerland but when they are used then the information needs to actually be accurate and include a mechanism for what is being asked.

Brexit is also a perfect example of government creating it’s own mandates through lies and deception then blaming the electorate.

Both of these examples are deliberate misuse of mandates… where the majority of people voting for something wouldn’t have voted for it if they knew what/how.

Based on the number of responses to the petition (now apparently 430,000) it’s safe to say had he said he was going to introduce this and announced how many lives any reasonable calculation shows it may possibly save he wouldn’t have been elected.

Are you saying want to put the setting of local speed limits to a national vote?
If this is the major red line issue for you, then I suppose your vote is essentially already cast.

I’m saying 430,000 people on the petition shows this is not what people thought they voted for.
Either they made an election promise but had no idea how they would deliver it or they already had pet projects and lied.
Either way he needs dragging out of the Synedd and handing over to the masses he betrayed.

This lies and deception is endemic in our politics from local to national.
Our local council is doing the same right now with a fake sham consultation on what services will be cut but refuses to disclose what relative services cost. At the end they will do what lines their own pockets and then blame the electorate saying they all voted for it in the consultation.

time it right and present enough facts via FB and I’m sure you could persuade could persuade 51%+ of eligible voters that Upper school places should be awarded not on catchment and/or academic merit but the outcome of a series of battles to the death between 11 year olds.
I can see the minister for schools now: “It might not be safe, but at least it’s fair, yes they’ll have to murder some childhood friends but at least half of all children get the opportunity to do GCSEs”…

That’s a stretch … but to turn that into the way the 20mph is being done the promise would be to promise “Upper school places should be awarded with a fairer system” … and then coming up with a hunger games scenario and then blaming the electorate because that’s what they voted for.

molgrips

@stevextc there is some really horrible stuff in that last post. You cannot treat people statistically like that.

You may find it horrible, its a reality.
Each death is a tragedy to someone but it’s irrelevant to 99.99%+ of the population.
We can’t set policy based on completely avoiding every death or life quickly becomes not worth living for everyone else so we have to collectively pick a number along with what costs and changes it will bring and aim for that.

88.84 fatalities / 3.1 million ? We can theoretically save those other 88.34 people just ban ALL road traffic.. then we ban trains and boats cos people die on those and stairs and walking and cycling or riding a horse.

Also read about social contract. We all accept limitations on what we can do so that we can live safely and happily. You presumably were ok with 30mph limits?

The limit is irrelevant to me, it’s the deceit, the lying and wilful ignoring of wishes of the electorate is what bothers me.

Talking of social contracts, the contract between the Synedd and electorate states that any petition with 10,000 signatures will be CONSIDERED for debate.. not some tin pot dictator deciding on a pet project. We are still living with Thatcher’s pet projects.

In this case the assembly changed something, it’s extremely unpopular, 430,000 people signed a petition calling for the default 20mph speed limit law to be rescinded. responses to the petition is a record for anything . The next most popular was 67,940 signatures and he/they refuse to even think about changing it or holding a referendum.

He’s got one job and that is to do the will of the electorate… that’s it and if he doesn’t care what the electorate want he needs getting rid of.

You still didn’t say how many deaths you think is acceptable and at what costs… why not think? What is the cost (to people) vs benefit… I personally think 88/3 million is pretty good.. but if you think 5 is too many it comes with increasing costs.

Maybe if everyone had to pick range along with a realistic way to get there they’d collectively decide on 5, 50 or 500.. it’s not like individual councils can’t already set a 20mph limit

Yes please, reducing risk of death would be great!

Cool so that’s 2 votes for … 160,000 against.

Probably time the entire electorate were given the facts and consulted.

So, the * about misery, I don’t think slowing traffic down a little bit is causing misery for anyone

What you think is irrelevant (in terms of vanishingly small numbers).
The way to find out is by actually asking them.

it might be being used as an excuse for some people to make themselves angry

Sure… but so what if over 50% of people given the actual facts prefer not to have the restriction then it’s irrelevant.

There is no false information on 20mph – it simply is more socially pleasant, quieter, more environmentally friendly and safer for all.

Are you trying to say the Welsh Assembly didn’t claim this was about traffic fatalities?
Mark Drayford is quoted as saying

“keep people from losing their lives”.

is every quote a lie and why hasn’t he sued BBC wales if he never said this?

“And behind this decision, and this course of action, is those lives. It is the lives of people who will be saved. It is the lives of people who would otherwise be caught up in the road traffic accidents which will not happen when people are travelling at 20mph but do happen when people are travelling at 30mph. That is the purpose of it. That is why this government will stick fast to the decision that we have made.”

As for living in a free country free from dictating what you can and cannot do – tough luck. We all have to adhere to laws, pay taxes, stick to some social norms etc etc.

No we don’t we can stand up and be humans not sheep… we can vote out politicians that lie and if needs be we can stand up and remove their foot soldiers.

The largest petition ever for the Senedd … and they blatantly choose to ignore it.

Molgrips

Whose life is being made a misery?

It seems over 50% of people don’t support it.. just based on looking at social media and the suicide rate for wales would seem to indicate many people are not at all happy.

How many road deaths are acceptable?

The number the electorate decide… assuming you want to live in a democracy
Give them the actual numbers and ask … You get one vote same as the other 2M or so of voting age.

How many do you think are acceptable ?

Is your child one of the ones we should sacrifice for the benefit of a few minutes saved?

Noone is being sacrificed …why over dramatize this .. FFS people die.. we all do eventually we might as well be free to enjoy it as best we can.

I can’t find easily separate stats for Wales but you’ll save more lives banning houses and buildings with 2 or more stories and banning all watersports and access to water since falls down stairs and drowning kill far more on a UK average. Do you think they should fence off every beach, lake and river because we should aim for zero??

How many people falling down stairs or off cliffs is acceptable?

The chance he’s going to die in a traffic accident in a 30mph zone that could be 20mph and he wouldn’t have died is so vanishingly small as to be insignificant.

On the other hand I’d rather my kid grew up in a free country not one dictating what people can and can’t do and trying to justify it by false information and statistics

Northwind

I don’t especially care what the talking points are tbh, it’s more that so much of it is just absolute fiction. This is all about spinning the Welsh change into something it isn’t, and using that to create a completely false “we are fixing this” message about something that doesn’t exist. Like someone else said it’s the same as the 7 bins and all the other “we will prevent things that aren’t happening”.

Wales population circa 3.136M (2019)
Total road deaths in 2022 = 2% of 4,442 (88.84)… road deaths in 30mph zones conspicuous by its absence.
https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/statistics-and-research/2023-06/reported-road-casualties-2022-681.pdf

So 1:35,000 chance… per year in total if we take the 2/21 overall for the “KSI” that’s 48 deaths in 30 mph zones or 1:65333

There is no record I could find of miles of 20mph road vs 30mph road.. however the KSI statistic is practically identical in terms of total incidents. (42/239 (17.5%) 20mph vs 421/2100 20%)

and dwarfed by the suicide rate in Wales. (300-350)
https://executive.nhs.wales/networks-and-planning/wales-mental-health-network/suicide-and-self-harm-prevention/

and that’s dwarfed by those 15,581 people that have died while waiting for an operation since 2016 ( 15,581/7 = 2,225 )

So its hard to see what the problem they are addressing is from the data they supply??
Still, I think they should supply the information and have a referendum.

Do you wish to make life even more of a misery to reduce your chance of death by a traffic accident per year from 1:65000 to 1:60,000 by a blanket 20mph in all previous 30mph zones???

NickC

For what purpose? Rob’s wife is going to find out. All you’re doing here is being the person that either tells Rob’s wife that her marriage is over, or you’re the reason why Rob’s wife finds out her marriage is over. Either way you loose one or both or these friends. Their marriage is finished already, if you want to have some hope of retaining either or both of their friendships, then do not stick your nose into their business.

Edit: If either of these people ask for your advice, then feel free to be as honest as you feel, but until/if that happens, It Is None Of Your Business.

TLDR but I see no mention of kids… that would be my only real thing caused a deviation from your advice.

I’d just add there are other scenarios as well.. not that changes your advice IMHO.

Timba

Would you tell your sister what was happening?

My mum didn’t … the work affair drizzled out and Aunt and Uncle and kids all got on with life together.

She might be having her own affair … or has in the past… or simply not care or prefers not to know where he shoves his dick.

Nickc

If either of these people ask for your advice, then feel free to be as honest as you feel

Just to add to that, if either of them do ask your advice then it has to be on the understanding they are totally honest to you IF you want to give IMPARTIAL advice.

That is going to then come with some awkward questions your going to have to ask them.

I’d suggest you actually think what questions you’d need to know honest answers to before you jump in.

I think fundamentally that depends on or boils down to “Why are you still together after 17 years and what do they actually want for the next 17?” but that is likely to be quiet messy.

Depending on age but I found over 50 I need to keep riding the HT regularly but so long as I do it’s great fun but if I stop for too long it beats the shit out of me.

YMMV, I’m old and don’t do any exercise at all .. but I usually ride the HT way more than my FS or motorised bike. (3-4 times a week)

I just had a forced FS only for 6-7 weeks though and first ride I thought I was going to lose my teeth and eyeballs and the first 3-4 rides last week felt my quads and back taking a hammering. I also lost a bit of confidence

Part of it is line choice and part of it being an old unfit geezer but a weeks riding and I seem to be back in practice after a week.

chapaking

Hope Loic is uninjured of course, but I don’t think many non-Frenchies would have been unhappy with the result.

I just don’t get this… what country someone is born in or adopted by is not even on my list of people I’d like to win or do well.
That said, I’m not fixed to any one thing… just nationality isn’t one of them.

twisted pencil

Just backing up a bit. Having a race sanctioned via BC means you have some cover in the event of an incident IIRC, I used to run BMX races but it was a while back now.

Not having to deal with third party insurance companies for race insurance was a massive boon to a volunteer run event. I suspect most UK cycle events are BC backed for this reason.

That’s totally fair…but I guess the problem is would someone more appropriate not be doing it if BC hadn’t got it by default?
BC only have one KPI and that’s Olympic Gold medals… mixing that up with anything else seems counterproductive to BMX/MTB or just cycling in general. 90% of effort is directed towards something I think is worse than worthless.. Olympic medals for a country… whilst everything else falls into the 10% of other things

£68k a year to run a £25m business with ~250 staff is considered a ‘fat cat’? 😆

Jesus, decent sales people in my world have higher basic salaries than that.

Of the £25M turnover, £8 million disappeared in “admin” and they awarded themselves all bonus’s … and frankly if they can’t sell out the entire GB team to their sponsors for more than £25M a year (30 seconds at the superbowl costs $7M) they aren’t worth jack…

The thing is they aren’t meant to be running a business.. the athletes allowances come from government sponsored gambling (yet another thing shouldn’t be happening) so all they have to do is pay themselves for picking who gets to go and funding.

These are hardly ‘fat cat’ salaries

That depends on the level of benefits and ability to accept hospitality and bribes.
It’s in the range of an MP salary … I understand some people find it hard to pay a nanny and buy gold wallpaper on a PM’s salary and are forced to take free holidays on private islands and yachts…

In fact the exaple you use (Client Services Director) most likely has no connection to racing (at a professional/national level).

So why are they employed at all? This is the body choses who gets to go and who doesn’t, sets their puny allowances and kicks them off if they have an accident, get ill or fall pregnant

They are basically a media and marketing team… mostly put there through nepotism selling advertising space on athletes.

CEO – Earlier in his career, Andy worked for The Walt Disney Company in Burbank California, in a senior capacity within the successful Consumer Products division and spent time at Channel 4 TV, one of the UK’s leading network TV companies as Head of Strategy and MD of Channel 4’s digital media business.

COO – Having started his career in the broadcast industry, Shahab went on to spend two years living and working in Japan before training to be a lawyer. Shahab trained and qualified at the law firm Freshfields working primarily on corporate transactions, before joining the BOA in 2010.

CFO – In Sarah’s early career she trained and qualified as a Chartered Accountant at PwC. She then cut her teeth in industry in B2B events at UBM focussing on M&A in emerging markets in EMEA. Since then Sarah has been CFO in two start-ups; Virgin Sport, who disrupted the mass participation running events space with the iconic Hackney Half and Unleash a B2B events company focussing on HR tech.

Commercial Director – Prior to the BOA, Tim was responsible for Heineken’s main sports properties – in particular the UEFA Champions League, Rugby World Cup and Formula 1 – managing the above the line, below the line, digital, PR and promotions of these sponsorships across the activating markets. In addition, Tim was in charge of the delivery of the sponsorship rights for Heineken’s contracting partners at UEFA, World Rugby and Formula One Management. Before joining Heineken, Tim was the Sponsorship Manager for Coca-Cola Great Britain working on the company’s global assets such as FIFA World Cup and Olympic Games as well as managing their domestic sponsorships with the Football League and RFU. Tim started his career with Synergy Sponsorship where he worked on the Coca-Cola account.

https://www.teamgb.com/executive-team/3TlBG7zJK9aoTgw8jNd3Qk#:~:text=Andy%20Anson%20OBE%20CEO&text=Andy%20was%20also%20President%20of,Chair%20of%20Lancashire%20Cricket%20Club.

weeksy

Now, “why’ is your question…

It’s all very catch-22 though for the reasons you mention.

but even they have a tie-in with UCI rankings as IXS races score points for the WCDH ranking system

Which makes me think there just needs to be a viable alternative..
This is just a tin-pot local event but
If you look who attended – a lot of support from pro riders and although Bernard was away Bardolph turned up and Brendan brought the family in support. (I know its Enduro not DH but it had some proper sized stuff not Southern/Pedalhounds type Enduro)

https://www.rootsandrain.com/event11951/2023-jul-9-hurt-wood-events-hurtwood-enduro-hurtwood-peaslake/results/

ChrisMac

yes they do if it is an Olympic sport. It come from the lottery

The key word is “pay” but perhaps I should have said salaried .. unlike the CEO of BC for example who gets £68k/yr + expenses + pension and I’d expect health insurance, perks etc. and an employment contract and rights.

Then there are another 250 salaried workers in British Cycling ..
Who knows how many salaries in TeamGB but payscale.com lists a SALARY as Client Services Director 49k – £98k (Estimated *) £69,363… and the executive team is some who’s who of Disney, Coca Cola and such.
Who are they marketing to ??? Oh, yeah they are funded by being the sole control over advertising on the unsalaried athletes .. and must be raking it in in bribes and hospitality. Then for cycling there is the UCI …

Basically a load of fat cats milking the system whilst the athletes do all the actual work and don’t get a employment contract or treated as employees.

Surely the athletes deserve better than this?

Really. Whilst it’s theoretically possible for some brands to do that the reality is not so clear.

None of the riders would ever get to win world champs as they wouldn’t have the recognition from their national governing body if they never attended a sanctioned event so couldn’t even enter

That’s why ideally the entire pyramid disappears.. but more realistically perhaps its about getting out when different sports and disciplines can.
Instead of getting closer to these “bodies” move as far away as possible… enter non UCI/BC sanctioned races and events .. for DH/Enduro don’t look at BMX/XC as some sort of good thing it’s an Olympic sport… as consumers support a riders union for example, refuse to pay for anything sanctioned by BC or the UCI and pay for alternatives??

nickc

Incomprehensible? Honestly, if you wrote clearly and concisely I’d engage more, but your posts reads like a wall of verbiage, sorry I just haven’t got the time.

which part of this needs clarifying?

Financial – I’m not saying that should be the be all and end all but lets at least acknowledge it any who is benefiting financially ??

VanHalen

you need a better lbs. my motor got sent off by my local shimano dealer. it was a little bit noisy.

Did it have any error codes?
The LBS I went to (based on proximity) only sells one ebike model with a Shimano motor and that by ironic chance is a Nukeproof.
I wasn’t even asking they handled the return just if they could write a report and they advised me it wouldn’t make any difference.

If it makes a difference I can travel further .. I was reluctant to just send it back to Wiggle without a firm error code.
I did ask on a STEPS group and though lots had successfully returned the motor with error codes noone had managed without.

nickc

You speak as if the only thing that matters to (a highly competitive and driven group of folks) is money.

Not at all which is why my next statement was…

There are a lot of ways to look at this but we can separate them for the sake of discussion and perhaps what “good for the sport” and similar things mean ??
In many ways it is the pinnacle of an entire structure that TODAY principally exists to give salaries to people involved in admin rather than support athletes and sports.

Financial – I’m not saying that should be the be all and end all but lets at least acknowledge it any who is benefiting financially ??

Some of these folks don’t care whether they live or die, I’m going to suggest that while it may be nice, money isn’t the primary deciding factor in these folks lives.

Well there is little point turning up if they are bothered about serious injury… but I’d suggest being able to continue racing without saying what you’re told and some medical insurance and serious injury insurance not just chucked on the scrap heap might be a good thing.

Look at this wider or maybe the other side some athletes would rather win and be disqualified for refusing to shake hands than take the medal.

I think Victoria Pendleton sums it up well and not only in terms of sexism, what she said is true for any body like BC.

“It was never going to happen at an earlier stage, unfortunately. And, when you’re in the team, you keep your head down and you do what you’re told because you want to be part of it. It doesn’t mean it’s right,”

nickc

It’s £39.99 on GCN+ for the whole year, which includes all the road racing calendar if you’re into that, or £6.99 a month and you have to subscribe for a month.

If that is literally it I might consider it… especially with the £30… as its become quite disruptive to actual riding trying to get to somewhere to watch it free..

AndyRM

Mountain biking is pretty backwards when it comes to athlete & team sponsorships TBH, it might be a controversial view to some, but I think the sport needs more agents to represent athletes & teams, and sell their endorsement rights/reach to sponsors outside the bike industry. Also, see teams running as proper businesses (just like in the pro peloton) rather than a mostly factory run marketing cost centre.

I’m not disagreeing… I just think it needs to be one or the other.
Ideally with a riders union as well…

That’s a bit chicken and egg though, it can’t happen until there’s unmet demand from outside the industry for MTB athletes. Sadly I don’t think that’s the case yet.

It’s not going to happen whilst the various governing bodies can just make a deal for themselves and take the sponsorship away from the athletes. (Like UCI/GoPro but you can apply that to any sponsor) or whilst they can make arbitrary decisions on what sponsors riders are allowed to have or what other work they are allowed to do.

Where is the incentive for any outside the industry/periphery company to sponsor a team/rider if they can just be blacklisted by the UCI or someone?

VanHalen

my focus has been decent but focus dont have a huge presence here. the motor is covered by the motor manufacturer anyway.

True but your warranty is managed through the retailer (in a roundabout way for the motor).
Shimano – > Madison -> retailer -> customer
Shimano – > Madison -> direct manufacturer -> customer

My Shimano motor is failing after 9mo but refuses to give me an error code.
It’s cutting out and making some pretty bad metal on metal sounds and getting worse but the local LBS (rather than CRC/Wiggle) told me Madison aren’t interested in anything but the error code.
I was asking them how much for them to ride it and write a report and they just said Madison won’t be interested in what they say.. (How true that is I don’t know).

I’m basically riding it at the moment trying to get it to fail on some error code to then return it to Wiggle… hoping I’m not miles from anywhere when it finally fails and the cranks still turn so I can at least pedal it back home unassisted. Given the grinding noise and feeling like something is loose inside and jamming I think the not being able to pedal it all all is at least likely.

YMMV etc. I guess most people manage an error code and then CRC/wiggle let you return via a LBS.

I know other motor makes are different… and to some extent seem to believe the shop if they say its screwed?

Whilst the price is difficult to overlook, the only one that’ll fit me is the mythique lt. Even then in slack it’s definitely on the not entirely sure that’s big enough side.

Can’t say about the Mythique but my size M e-sommet is WAY bigger than my size L Capra. I was lucky enough to try one and had thought I was a large but NO WAY….

What I can say is the bike itself is stupidly good for the money… I got the base model and changed suspension/wheels/brakes but I’d probably do that anyway.

It’s a first gen motor with no real world feedback so far as I can see.

It’s not entirely clear if the modifications by Vitus are going to stop you replacing it with a OTS Bafang..

Frankly I’d love to be in the position of just being able to buy a replacement motor… though I have 15 mo warranty left so I hope this fails in a warranty way soon.
I could take my chances and return it to Wiggle but I feel like there is at least a 50/50 chance I’ll be without the bike for months then get it back exactly as I sent it and have lost that time from warranty ??

In honesty I think I’d be mad to buy one despite how tempting the price is.

On the other side I could buy one of these every year and still be quids in over my mates £12000 Spez..???
On the other hand his motor failed and was replaced same day…
On yet another hand my other mate bought a most basic Spez (same price as frame/motor alone) and swapped everything onto it and stuck the takeoffs on his old Decoy and sold that??

I’m running out of hands .. I guess the point being pros and cons

I always go with what they are designed/supplied with… some do and some don’t. The Zee/Saint I use them and they have a recessed ring for them to fit.

I have altered damping oil in cartridge forks before.

I’ve not tried on the RC but the RC2/RCT3 it doesn’t do much if anything positive altering the oil. They just don’t tune well like that.

You can get a lot further on the RC2/RCT3 altering the shim stack…
On the old MOCO based Revs you could get a lot of useful tuning on the oil… and the RC looks a lot like the old Moco TBH

I did have a more basic damper than the RC (R) in a set of domains and I just chucked it and put a used RC2 (2.1) in and it completely changed the forks – I mean completely. They went from really really horrible to amazing..

I serviced the used damper 1st so it cost me about £125 for the used damper and new oil on top (I already had the oil)

Worth considering perhaps rather than spending money keep trying different oils… ??

Is that total costs? I don’t need to have discovery+ or anything extra?
So far I’ve been riding to the YT Mill to watch but its pretty disruptive to riding.

nickc

So that’s every rider and national body in every cycling sport* that might want to have a tilt at an Olympic medal at some point

You say that like the Olympics is a definitively good thing for anyone outside the gravy train?
There are a lot of ways to look at this but we can separate them for the sake of discussion and perhaps what “good for the sport” and similar things mean ??
In many ways it is the pinnacle of an entire structure that TODAY principally exists to give salaries to people involved in admin rather than support athletes and sports.

Financial – I’m not saying that should be the be all and end all but lets at least acknowledge it any who is benefiting financially ??
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/how-much-money-medals-winners-paid-b1897920.html

First google for Tokyo ^ … $13.4 Billion and not a cent paid to the athletes who are working for free.

American TV network NBC alone paid $7.7bn for the broadcasting rights to the summer and winter games until 2032, and has sold $1.25bn in advertising for Tokyo 2020.

Team GB don’t pay our athletes a penny for the dubious honour of working for free…
Why does the media bombard us with “how many medals” TeamGB has won and why should we even care?
What financial value does taking part in the Olympics confer to the UK? (Or hosting it but that’s almost another gravy train)

BC CEO earns £64k per year (plus expenses, bribes and back handers) and they admit to having 250 people in their employment yet they don’t pay a cyclist a single penny** for competing? (**Some training expenses)

How many people in that total gravy train for someone competing at the Olympics ?? From BC through TeamGB, the UCI and IOC that’s a whole load of people making money off the back of an athlete working for free.

There is of course the ability to gain “celebrity” … and for some athletes such as track and field they seem pretty much locked in but in all honesty who actually remembers most of them in sports we aren’t interested in? What happened to some British table tennis medal winner for example… (assuming it’s an Olympic sport)

Ultimately, I think whoever is making money it’s mostly not the athletes and certainly not most of the athletes.

Then various bodies decide how the athletes may or may not get their income, sometimes just taking income sources away. (e.g. GoPro) because they get a deal.

Someone mentioned Pivot Factory Racing earlier (if not by name by inference) … but that income is in spite of and with GoPro sponsorship removed since UCI decided they would OWN it and athletes GoPro became the IP of the UCI thus messing up their sponsorship deals…

Remember the OnlyFans ban for Lewis Buchanan.. basically a self proclaimed body saying yes/no and deciding who can and who can’t sponsor a rider in what they have self proclaimed to be the defacto global body.

The point really being if they (UCI/BC) are not going to pay the athletes a proper salary and health benefits then how they make enough money to live and compete shouldn’t be up to them. (Or if they retire due to injury and start having to sell drugs like Missy to eat) … how is anyone ever going to progress up the ranks without sponsorship that could be cutoff at any point by a self appointed body. It seems NRA money is good for the UCI but not a social media site that has some pornographic content… but very specific content as Instagram is OK ??

I guess what I mean is treat them as employees… including paying for medical bills for work related injuries and pensions or let them make money however they can.

Then you have the whole pigeonholing a whole sport into some Olympic or otherwise medal machine where even the limited support they get is targeted at the few that fit the mould and say the right things – for example right at the grass roots end a local cycling club will be quite happy to bypass their 3 yr waiting list for someone who can win them medals kicking someone else off the waiting list.

Beyond the financial there is the whole questionable nationalism behind it. Having one nation compete against others seems so 19C.. be that a UCI world cup or Olympics.

ayjaydoubleyou

There is no reason the teams can’t just leave. Just say they are no longer pursuing professional WC downhill. At least two teams have just done so. YT dropped out a few years ago (to focus on freeride/slope, and content creation) and there have been a few others.

I think the point is they shouldn’t have to, its not like the UCI is anything but a self appointed body.
Why can’t RedBull or IXS or a whole load together simply set up a DH World Cup and call it a World Cup.. or an Enduro WC etc. and just ignore the existence of the UCI and national bodies. (Like Enduro used to be before they got their teeth into it) and build a organisation from grass roots and kids through to world cups?

Weeksy

Explain how this works then… which events ? Who’s running them ? how are they organised ? We’re talking MASSIVE events here not a local DH race (which is hard enough on it’s own to organise), with hundreds of competitors, teams, wagons, pits, hotels, viewers etc, then TV/broadcasting, it’s a massive massive undertaking.

UCI don’t do the logistics, it happens in spite of them not because of them using event management companies.
A global tech company I used to work for used to do global events with thousands of attendees… they just hired event management, media etc. – The LTA don’t event manage Wimbledon etc.

Most of them take place in resorts that are falling over themselves and pay to be selected, media companies who want exclusive rights etc. and pay (factory team fees went up) but that’s just the top part of the pyramid… ideally financial benefits would filter down to the local level but that’s never going to happen with gravy train organisations like UCI and Olympic medal delivery funded BC.

None of that though has affected what the viewers have seen. Sure there seems to be issues with GCN+ feeds and the lack of options in US and other countries, but as we’re in a very UK centric forum, for me anyway the Discovery+ app on Sky has been brilliant, clear options, instant viewing, no spoilers etc etc.

Well it’s certainly affected what I can see… it went from being a sport anyone can follow to only rich people

Nickc

seems so straightforward when you write it out like that, eh?

But it is simple .. the only complication really being factory teams that do road racing and the tours.

They just need a decent number of riders and teams who don’t give a toss about the UCI as they don’t make road bikes establish a “real world DH cup” and “real world Enduro series” and cut out the cancer that is the UCI.

The sponsors will follow the racers… they just need an event organiser with global reach…

As someone said on PB in a thread I read ages ago (sic)
What do the UCI actually do? Phone a resort, ask how much they will pay the UCI to host an event there and then say “we’ll consider you if you’re successful you’ll be hearing from our event organisers”.

Ultimately, there has to be compromise between commercial realities, rider and viewer enjoyment. Hopefully that works out.

No there doesn’t … not really, they only have to put up with this if they want to play the UCI game … same with DH riders and teams just need to just leave UCI en-masse and go back to real racing.

A bit harder for the factory teams with road bikes as doubtless the UCI will seek to punish them but better for the riders and the sport than staying with the UCI

Pretty simple … compatibility with existing parts, price of a frame used or not and wheelsize.

Wheelsize is partly “compatibility with existing parts” but also I won’t ever buy or ride a full 29er for myself…

Molgrips

Society is a lot more complex than you realise, I think.

I’m sure, however how much of that complexity is manufactured or deliberate or a result of a specific history?

Ultimately why do a significant number of the English especially repeatedly vote against both their best financial interests but living in a more pleasant society to live in?

That’s not out of deference to perceived betters, that’s because we have adopted a right of centre political landscape. Other countries that do not have a class system also have right wing landscapes and get similar results. The only time we went left of centre was just after the war, a time when class systems were a lot more embedded than they are now and people were more familiar with ‘knowing their station in life’.

Firstly if you actually start listing those countries you will probably discover most of them have a class system that is either historic or inherited from European colonialism. Perhaps a stark example is the United States… and the various people they imported to work on the land, railways etc in various degrees of slavery and indentured servitude.

Secondly post WW II and WW I and at various other times such as Watt Tyler’s uprising .. when the real people have been killed off to a point the aristocracy hasn’t had sufficient people to work the land (or build railways, canals, work in factories etc.) people have started to realise their worth and that they are just cattle or domesticated humans and made a few small concessions… but it’s a slow 3 steps forward and 2 steps back and against a backdrop of English Laws going back to feudal times…

I am not sure that’s exactly what feudalism means.

Hence why I am referring to a feudal type system…. although historians (basically posh people who don’t need a real job and write history for us and tell us what we should think) debate the term “bastard feudalism” and it slips in and out of fashion the recognised end of the academic English Feudal system is 1660 with the Tenures Abolition Act.

The term bastard feudalism is applied (when convenient) to the replacement of land based tax in terms of providing knights service to the nobility to paying capital instead (socage). This isn’t something progressive to the serfs who continued to be serfs, it’s merely a gradual change acknowledging it doesn’t matter how many knights you have they can’t build a ship, buy cannon or any of the other things to need to be an empire. This wasn’t something new… it just removed the option of a noble of providing knights instead of money. The net effect on the serfs was basically just to impose a tax on beer and cider on them and for their owner to have to extract tax from them for where else would than money come from.

The full title is

An Act takeing away the Court of Wards and Liveries and Tenures in Capite and by Knights Service and Purveyance, and for setling a Revenue upon his Majesty in Lieu thereof.

Feel free to read it.. I doubt it contains what you may expect it contains.

1660 also ends the fake commonwealth of Cromwell when we swapped one set of nobles and serfdom for another set of nobles.
It’s not like the morning after the Tenures Abolition Act was signed the serfs woke up and were no longer the property of their nobleman. We didn’t suddenly have freedom or universal suffrage or anything like that… laws still referred to “The King” .. Parliament still sits at the pleasure of a king unlike a republic or a Scandinavian monarchy.

This is still UK law… (technically different orders of precedence for each country)
It’s a list of who is legally defined as better than you because of their birth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_precedence_in_the_United_Kingdom

The order of precedence in the United Kingdom is the sequential hierarchy for Peers of the Realm, officers of state, senior members of the clergy, holders of the various Orders of Chivalry, and is mostly determined, but not limited to, birth order, place in the line of succession, or distance from the reigning monarch. The order of precedence can also be applied to other persons in the three legal jurisdictions within the United Kingdom:

@Molgrips

Sorry, I was distracted at replying to your observation that small countries also tend to be more “pleasant” and also that book. I’ll try and get back on the book, if its genuinely interesting but smaller countries in terms of populations also tend to be non dependent on agriculture..

I guess ultimately it doesn’t matter why unless it’s part of a solution OR recognising why needs to happen before the solution. That’s assuming people even want a solution and what is frustrating is people pretending they would like a more equal, more pleasant society and then voting against it.

To look at this differently, instead look at rail commuters… and ask the question why do rail companies not spend the profits they make on upgrading or even maintaining the rail network? How come the board get bonuses and shareholders get a nice lump of cash yet most of the commuters suffering daily misery are not clammering for nationalisation or some other method that doesn’t prioritise shareholder profits and director bonuses?

I’m not saying this purely in terms of past Tory/Labour votes… I’m saying why isn’t the Labour party committed to removing the monarchy and hereditary Lords etc. why would anyone who wants a more equal society not start off by getting rid of hereditary privileges or voting for a party that is committed to getting rid of them? [obviously that doesn’t seem to be the case]

Lets ignore the names for now and I’m using an extended feudalism to mean a strict hierarchy that defines everyone’s immovable place in society by birth.

Whatever we call it – “post feudal capitalism” (seems a apt enough description but I’m not married to it) the system is different to “Scandinavian capitalism” … and people in Scandinavia are more likely to vote for a more pleasant society over what is best financially for an individual. In general the Scandinavian countries also tend to have very limited periods of “feudal type systems” (a strict hierarchy that defines everyone’s immovable place in society by birth) and they have usually been disastrous and overthrown.

The closest England came was swapping one set of landed gentry for another with a different sect. Accounts of the execution and signing of the warrant indicate even Cromwell as part of the ruling elite was reluctant to execute a king… whereas he had no compunction over the murder of commoners.

I think this is a fundamental difference in the way especially the English still see themselves in specific social structures based on birth.. all we did was evolve the feudal system rather than ever throw it out completely and we collectively keep voting for it

politecameraaction

because it would be a nonsensical distinction between countries in all three “worlds” that are objectively at a similar level of development) but their political orientation.

I think it is as important to work out what we mean by “development”.
Regardless of GDP or GDP per capita etc. then different people will view say Sweden and USA as both different levels of development. Equally a large proportion (I hope not a majority) of the USA seem to view all Europe (or anywhere with social medicine) as being communist.

Not the first time English Wiki passes over French achievements. 🙂

Neither is it the first time a literal translation of a French compound noun doesn’t translate well into English
Or for that matter why a direct translation of a Chinese company name …

My last few posts have been either correcting bollocks or replying to criticism about France.

TLDR I haven’t seen any criticisms of France? Who made those?

If you want to be pedantic at least get your facts right, Stevextc. 🙂

My statement that “the Normans are Vikings” is spot on in Norman land, by definition:

En français, le terme est également employé, par extension, pour désigner les peuples germaniques de scandinavie à partir de l’âge du fer romain au 2ième siècle

and the Ukranians are Russians ???

In this case you are arguing a extended French definition in English.

Vikings is the modern name given to seafaring people originally from Scandinavia (present-day Denmark, Norway and Sweden), who from the late 8th to the late 11th centuries raided, pirated, traded and settled throughout parts of Europe

Les Vikings (en vieux norrois : víkingr, au pluriel víkingar) sont des explorateurs, commerçants, pillards mais aussi pirates scandinaves au cours d’une période s’étendant du viiie au xie siècle1, communément nommée « âge des Vikings ». Ils sont souvent appelés Normands, étymologiquement « hommes du Nord », dans la bibliographie ancienne.

En français, le terme est également employé, par extension, pour désigner les peuples germaniques de Scandinavie à partir de l’âge du fer romain au iie siècle

More importantly though shouldn’t we ask say the Swedish ?

Google translate Se/Fr

Les Vikings étaient des guerriers marins et des pirates[1], principalement originaires de la région nordique actuelle, qui ont participé à des raids en bateau et à des campagnes de guerre dans les pays nordiques, en Europe et en Asie occidentale de 793 jusqu’au XIIe siècle. Au cours de cette période, les guerriers nordiques ont conquis une grande partie des îles britanniques et du nord de la France.

Le mot viking apparaît pour la première fois dans les sources du vieil anglais, et dans la plupart des premières sources, y compris le norrois, il fait référence aux pirates, sans autre précision sur son origine. Le sens a ensuite été restreint pour ne faire référence qu’aux habitants du Nord (Norvégiens) à l’époque. Au cours du romantisme national du XIXe siècle, une vision romantique des Vikings a été façonnée par les poètes danois et suédois. Aujourd’hui, le mot, selon l’utilisateur, peut avoir des significations très différentes. Il peut donc faire référence à tout, depuis les marins guerriers scandinaves jusqu’à pratiquement tous les Scandinaves de l’ère viking.[2] Cette ambiguïté fait que le mot est évité par certains chercheurs, même s’il a encore une forte valeur symbolique.[3]

ANYWAY
The real point anyway is had a person from 10C Sweden or Norway that travelled to Kiev for work they would have conversed well enough and they would have found someone spoke a Nordic language well enough in Rouen but they wouldn’t have recognised most of the society in either as being the same society they came from.

Molgrips

Don’t make the mistake of thinking that everything would be better if we didn’t have agriculture. But generally I’d dispute that anyway,

I’m not saying that, I’m saying it’s simply one of the reasons but the one got the ball rolling and more importantly as we are no longer an agrarian economy we no longer need the inequality if only people could realise that.

it’s a case of correlation vs causation.
There are societies that practice agriculture that are still small and have small locally organised groups.

Perhaps … but that doesn’t characterise England… (or really Wales) but …also I’m not talking about “agriculture” but a complete agrarian society.

Agriculture provides plentiful food – this is good.

I don’t think that follows… At least in so far as

Plentiful food leads to lots of people, and that leads to powerful rich elites.

Equally rich and powerful elites need a sub-class … which requires lots of people who need to be fixed to the land they work for the elites and they need to be subjugated in times of famine.

So the issue is with how people organise, not agriculture. Agriculture basically leads to everything that’s happened in the last 5,000 years so singling out feudalism is a little daft IMO.

To get all Douglas Adams…
“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”

but to put that into context …

Agriculture basically leads to everything that’s happened in the last 5,000 years

Well it does or it doesn’t… I think you mean “the good stuff” .. like we had time and resources to do art and science and stuff…

Of course it did. We are still unequal, but we’re not feudal. You could equate my employer with a feudal overlord, but I don’t actually have to work for them – I could start my own business selling my wares or services directly, or grow my own food, or work for someone else. Plus, if my employer decides to go to war they can’t make me fight for them. It’s not in my job description.

In terms of not being forced to fight for your employer you are actually half describing the feudal system of Scutage…
My point is not if we still have a formal feudal system but whether the system we have is so linked to it that its the same thing evolved into a different name.

The formal strict definition means the formal feudal system in England and Wales ended in 1610 predated by 6 years by the first inclosure acts removing access to common and waste land. (waste meaning was farmed by landless peasants)

You realise there was already a merchant class that equates to your ability to “start my own business selling my wares or services directly” .. before the formal end of the feudal system.
I’m saying that to point out one does not preclude the other.. Land was (is) wealth .. land was the ability to generate an income from tennant farmers/serfs.. the system evolved and the Tenures Abolition Act 1660 was really just another evolution not some step change.

This is nearly 20 minutes (if you get time), doesn’t mention agriculture or feudalism once… merely about why we tax income not wealth… why council tax on the poor is a MUCH larger % of their home value than the rich and lots more but also “why don’t labour change it” spoiler because it’s too hard

My observation of how different cultures see tax and the benefit of living in a “nice society” tend to differ as to if that society had millennia of feudalism like segregation or not and if they had a revolution against it.