Tonga were in the CoW, do they share the blame for rendition flights? What about those two Icelandic ‘military’ nurses (Iceland has no formal military) who were working with the British in Basrah (and lovely they were too), were they really nasty torturesses by proxy?

….you have to look on the British and Americans as a single unit….

Why do you? To make crass generalisations easier?

Its amazing how vocal folk can be about the apparent sins of the country which provides a safe environment in which to make such public protests, especially considering the lack of such freedom of protest in states which are run under the same belief system they so crave.

Support the RN if you’re a neutral and want to choose sides.

What with the Army hiring in rugby playing help from Fiji the RN lads are really the underdogs.

djglover – It that picture taken on Leith Hill, run in to the little quarry?

I was in the big ring (44) for about 80% of Llandegla yesterday.

Hardly the best example to use, one of the least technical of Welsh trail centres, all full of smooth, lovely sculptured but completely unchallenging singletrack.

Actually there was a slight lip to the patio outside the cafe that could cause a nasty nip to a big ring, you must be very skilled to manage that section of trail.

.or perhaps a container has just arrived?.

Pah, highly unlikely. The arthritic donkey that usually drags the containers to On-One HQ left with Brant as part of the severance package.

Who’s gonna drag that container now eh? Portly, middle-aged IT weenies who use STW? I don’t think so.

😉

ironically, it’s had a disproportionate coverage in the tabloid press (the usual ones) which in itself can only breed hatred and bigotry.

As disproportionate as the coverage of some oxygen thief who was made famous for being an idiot on national TV in a show watched by idiots and now has cancer?

Call me old fashioned but I’d consider ironic protesters protesting against the wrong people over events (or non-events) in Iraq far more newsworthy than one of many thousands of people who are dying from cancer who happens to have a good PR spinner.

Perhaps now the odd, shed-dwelling idol to beardy weirdies has left On-One the clique has moved on in search of another source for their niche needs, hence a large amount of unsold stock?

I had one of these issued to me on leaving the RAF.

Made me feel old in an instant and I’m not yet of age to be a veteran in MTB races, though its not far off.

..hoovering sick? are you mental? or do you want your whole house to smell of sick?…

After the first stage the bits left retain little smell and we don’t own some cheap Hoover that comes without removable and washable filter elements.

[list=1]Try to use as little water as possible when cleaning up (water helps the smell penetrate further into the mattress), use a proper furniture fabric cleaner to lift the stain/sick, hoover left-over bits off, spray a bit of Fabreeze on and plenty of airing.

My daughter decided to redecorate our new car the other week and this is the method I used to good effect.

If you want to make controversial statements you need t be able to back them up

TJ – Something which although we occasionally fail to see eye-to-eye I can’t often accuse you of failing to do.

And the war in Irak was NEVER about freedom. Cheap oil it is.

Securing natural resources of strategic value PLUS a slice of democracy for the people of Iraq?

Oh no, silly me. According to the STW Law of Armed Conflict only one reason for going to war may be considered by the braying masses.

I know Menshed and Arji who I worked with in Iraq were quite happy that some of the cash from the oil was going to go Iraqi state coffers rather than Saddam’s private account but they were far more happy about being able to actually vote for the chap that decides what that cash is spent on.

BTW, strangely one of the nations most pro-Saddam was France, who’s largest oil company had shortly before GW2 started, negotiated a contract to exploit two of Iraq’s oil fields with the potential to return profits of $650 billion.

‘War for oil’ or ‘tyrant for oil’? Both seem equally odious but one seems to provide even less long term benefits for the people of Iraq.

He’d joined the army to fight and he was really pleased and excited that he was going to get a chance to do so. I asked if that was typical. He said it was.

And unfortunately, for those who haven’t served ‘fight’ only means ‘fight’.

He has trained to do a job, that job is ultimately to fight if required. That doesn’t mean that he (and every other member of the Armed Forces) just wants to go out and brass up the first available target (you’d need an A10 to do that), he (I hazard a guess, though an educated one) wants to make use of the skills he learned, but unlike some IT weenie his day job doesn’t involve traveling to an office if Slough to fix a printer.

‘Fight’ to the layman is what you see in town centres on a Saturday night. ‘Fight’ to a serviceman can mean something much more important. Doing their duty, the ultimate test of all that training that they’ve carried out over the years, protecting their mates who they are often closer to than their own families, serving ‘Queen and Country’, earning their pay, something necessary to succeed in the mission and all manner of other things. Things that are important to the individual, that although I’ve tried to put into words cannot be done so easily, which unfortunately can lead to the layman seeing the dictionary definition.

When I lived down Headley way my choices (in order of preference) were,

– Cycleworks (Leatherhead)
– Freeborn (Esher)
– Head For The Hills (Dorking)
– Cycles Dauphin (Box Hill)

I wouldn’t touch a certain other LBS in the area with the longest of barge poles after they built me the most shonky pair of wheels ever to grace a non-supermarket bike.

I won’t mention them by name as it happened quite a few years back and I decided to bury the hatchet after mauling them on quite a few forums every time their name was mentioned and also as it seems the wheel builds have improved since they took on someone trained to build wheels to a professional standard. Unfortunately they don’t seem to have been quite so mature, as one of the comments on their website makes obvious, though to be fair I can be a bit of a t***er at times.

Pity the soldiers didn’t open fire on them.

British service personnel have died and still are dying to uphold their right to freedom of expression. Although your comment may be in jest its hardly a suitable one given the parties involved.

Whilst the opinion of the protesters is not one I share I stand by their right to make it heard.

Of course I don’t believe their protest was aimed at the correct target but then again, due to the unique way New Labour view the right to protest, they can’t very well go having a protest at the workplace of those who ultimately make the decisions over where and when to deploy British troops.

The irony though is that in countries that feature as hardline a set of Islamic beliefs as these protesters seemed to have they would very likely have been imprisoned or very possibly executed for making such a protest against the forces of the state.

Ho hum.

Plop_pants – I disagree, Tinker has always looked and performed his best on Cannondale bikes. He is Mr Big C.

Unions are elected. I had to cast my ballot for my local rep just the other month.

That’s like saying it’s your fault for leaving your bike unlocked if it gets nicked.

Except its not, in any way, shape or form.

If you were of course to pop down to Brick Lane market, tell the guy who is selling really nice bikes dead cheap that you are going to lock your bike up around the corner in a minute, wander around the corner and lock it up, wander back, kick the guy in the nuts and drop him the spare key for the lock whilst doing it it may, possibly, be more comparable.

Argentina attacked a dependancy of a sovereign state, recognised by the UN as being such. It then sent its sailors to sea against a credible submarine threat in vessels that were a credible threat to the British taskforce sent to recapture said dependancy. It and the many apologists can’t then go crying foul when blood is spilt, especially as the Argentine junta was doing exactly what many accuse Thatcher of in ’82, starting a war for popular support.

Yes it is the mighty Tinker. The man is a legend.

RB – The ARA General Belgrano (although an old ship) and the rest of the Argentinean navy as a whole were a significant threat to the UK task force, especially considering they had a proper aircraft carrier ARA Veinticinco De Mayo (which had its own shadowing submarine HMS Spartan) against the RN’s very mediocre force of AD fighters in the form of the Sea Harriers. Coupled with air and land launched Exocet missiles, correctly employed the ARA V De M and the Belgrano the Argentineans could have wreaked havoc amongst the British task force.

As for the needless deaths in NI, apparently peace reigns over there. The deaths in the Falklands happened during a war that the Argentineans started.

My favourite (living) MTB character,

a close second,

(Free plug, giz a bike).

Selective quoting dear chap, selective quoting.

PS wikepedia looks very much like your posting hope it helped with the degree

Thats because Wiki quotes directly from the official release, strangely.

If Wiki had been about when I did my degree I’m sure it would have been selectively plundered, it would have made it a damn sight easier than having to read stacks of books. 😛

I answered your question, RTFA.

Are you training to be a politician? Its just you have an knack of only quoting what you need in order to try an bolster a weak argument.

if she had been any where near them you mean

They were a relative stones throw at 32 knots.

Wonder where they got the ship from?

The USA, a country with quite a history for supporting South American juntas.

Junkyard – You question is out of context due to the quote you use not taking into account other factors within the declaration you take it from.

Yes ‘approach’ usually means ‘towards’ but history shows us that traditionally navies rarely sail directly at each in order to position themselves for an attack. Navies often manouver, using wind, tides and weather in order to try and gain a better position on the enemy fleet.

The ARA General Belgrano was at the time maneuvering towards a well-charted area of shallows which would have meant the shadowing submarine would have either been forced to abandon its pursuit or possibly broach over the shallows. The Argentineans were well-aware of the threat of British submarines, hence the ASW picket they were using to ping the waters all around the task group, so their maneuvering towards the shallows could be interpreted as an attempt to throw off their tail.

Do you think it may be defendable in law and yet [morally ] indefensible?

Such things do exist. Whether this is one of them is open to discussion.

How much threat were we under from the [your description]relic of WW2 when it was sailing away when Thatcher gave the order to sink it?

Although an old ship the ARA General Belgrano was still fitted with some very powerful weapons, namely her main armament of 15″ guns that could have caused a huge amount of danger at long range to the British fleet.

An aside was that sinking the Belgrano caused the Argentinean navy to withdrawal all its forces back to port, including its aircraft carrier that could have supplied the attack aircraft of the air force with fighter cover, a lack of which later proved decisive.

AndyP – What about

In announcing the establishment of a Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falkland Islands, Her Majesty’s Government made it clear that this measure was without prejudice to the right of the United Kingdom to take whatever additional measures may be needed in the exercise of its right of self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

or,

All Argentine aircraft, including civil aircraft engaged in surveillance of these British forces, will be regarded as hostile and are liable to be dealt with accordingly.

Selected quoting to support a specific viewpoint, classic STW behaviour.

RB – Read Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. I did as part of my research for my BA in Military History dissertation. Whilst not the most riveting read it will provide many of the answers you so surely seek.

Other than that I’m not going to belittle what I’ve already stated as it is correct.

Hate Thatcher for whatever you like but the sinking of the Belgrano was legal in the eyes of international law and only those who have an axe to grind for other reasons over Thatcher and bitter, ex-Juntaist Argentineans perpetuate the myth that it was anything other than.

Whether she cares for me matters not one jott, I’m only correcting the often incorrectly stated comment that the sinking was illegal. Whether it was moral is a completely different matter of course.

Not really Jam bo. It mainly boils down to two opinions.

“Cars are evil, m’kay.”

and

“No their not.”

Thatcher was actually drowning Argentineans? She gets about a bit.

Oh, you mean the Belgrano thing?

Couldn’t the Argentinian government be as cupable if not more so in the deaths of all those sailors for sending a relic of WW2 against a navy armed with nuclear-powered hunter/killer submarines?

Oh now comes the ‘Exclusion Zone’ thing, something that only has standing under international law in the respect of neutral vessels, not those of belligerent states, even less so after the message sent via the Swiss Embassy to Argentina on the 23rd April which states,

In announcing the establishment of a Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falkland Islands, Her Majesty’s Government made it clear that this measure was without prejudice to the right of the United Kingdom to take whatever additional measures may be needed in the exercise of its right of self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. In this connection Her Majesty’s Government now wishes to make clear that any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response. All Argentine aircraft, including civil aircraft engaged in surveillance of these British forces, will be regarded as hostile and are liable to be dealt with accordingly.

As Rear-Admiral Allara comander of the Belgrano task group i quoted on record “After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano..”

Blame Thatcher for many things but the sinking of the Belgrano, although regrettable (though not preventable by the Argentineans), was legal.

Anyway, thats slightly off thread.

Munge-chick – How do you draw that conclusion based on the actual wording of the Act.

A person commits an offence who elicits or attempts to elicit information about an individual who is or has been: a member of Her Majesty’s forces, a member of any of the intelligence services, or a constable, which is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or publishes or communicates any such information

Likely to be useful to… is particularly vague. Protester of some sort takes a picture of a constable, posts it on a protesting blog with name of said constable underneath and it becomes useful to, or is not the sort of thing that CI training is teaching these days?

Apparently they’ll still be made of of iron from old Russian bedsteads, bent into shape with a machine used for making filing cabinets.

😉

Does ‘lower speeds’ refer to speeds lower than the speed limit or speeds suitable for the conditions?

I didn’t mention ‘The North’

You may not have but it is the usual next step in any discussion about the Miner’s Strike in my ever-so-humble experience.

Its usually turns into North/Labour vs South/Tories and fails completely to take into account large parts of the North that have voted blue since the Tories were formed and large parts of the South (including a huge amount of that there London) that would only ever vote red as thats what they’ve always done. It also fails to take into account the large amount of Kentishmen and Men of Kent who lost their jobs when the many mines in Kent were closed after their huge support for the strike (Kentish miners were the only ones who voted to continue the strike at the end).

What’s good for the citizen is good for the public servant.

If only that were true.

28% of road fatalities are the result of excessive speed.

30mph can be excessive on a motorway if its covered in snow. ‘Excessive speed’ is a vague term when used to justify traffic policing without the use of traffic police, just the same as the term KSI (Killed or Serious Injured).

BTW, what percentage of that 28% also involve drink, drugs or already having broken some other law (stolen car then pursuit, etc)?

.A person commits an offence who elicits or attempts to elicit information about an individual who is or has been: a member of Her Majesty’s forces, a member of any of the intelligence services, or a constable, which is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or publishes or communicates any such information..

So if I were incorrectly accused of trying to rip someone off on the classifieds and you lot started a witch hunt against me in an AATOB-stylee and you published my name, address etc on the internet, as I’m an ex-member of Her Majesty’s Forces you’d be committing an offence of some kind?

Richie_B – The complaint that the police were there to enforce a political objectives rather than the law is a bit of a red herring.

The main reason the large amounts of police were brought in in the first place was to allow those who made a lawful decision to not go out on an (initially) illegal strike were not hindered in their lawful business. Whilst the decision with led to the flying pickets was political the police were upholding laws.

As an aside to that though, have the police ever truly operated free from politics? Who makes the laws?