If you are that worried, phone Orange, tell them the price you have been offered and buy it direct from them.

They can’t expect you to pay in full, a deposit should be enough, especially if its as much as £500.

I would offer them a 10% deposit, thats the norm isn’t it?

Crikey, no offence mate, but no matter which way I explain it too you, you aren’t going to understand. You can’t even be bothered to read the wiki link correctly, instead you are just quoting out of context.

There is no marketing in there whatsoever, just plain facts.

Like I said before, http://www.analyticcycling.com/ have models and graphs proving you wrong.

Like I said, I would rather have a 17″ with a shorter stem and the seat in the right place. 17″ will feel just as nimble and possible better than the 16″ because it will give you more room to move around. It will also feel more planted on the decents, whereas the 16″ will be a bit twitchy if you are slightly too big for it.

Lighter wheels accelerate faster, we already agree on that right?

They handle better because of the reduced gyroscopic effect. You can notice this by simply putting on slightly lighter tires!

They stop quicker for the same reason they accelerate quicker.

They cause your suspension to work more efficiently because the suspensions job is to keep the wheel in contact with the ground. The wheel is forever being bounced up and down by rocks/roots/bumps etc. The heavier the wheel, the more work the suspension has to do to keep in contact with the ground. The less unsprung weight it has to deal with, the better it can do its job.

All this combined makes saving weight on your wheels worth while.

Not really much to argue about is there?

I already explained on the last page young grasshopper.

You don’t even have an argument, I really don’t see why you are still going on, you are just making yourself look silly.

Edit: Thanks you TJ, finally someone with some brain power.

No.

Like I said, you two are only looking at the effect on accelerating and maintaining speed. If you look at the whole picture (accelerating, braking, handling and suspension performance) it is significantly worthwhile.

Why do you think manufacturers try so hard to reduce the sprung and unsprung weight of downhill bikes? If you and Al were right, they would build heavier bikes to keep momentum, but like I said you are not looking at the whole picture.

Edit: That quote is taken out of context, read the whole thing FFS.
Plus it isn’t taking into consideration braking, suspension and handling.

How tall are you Mah05?

You are assuming that changing the weight of your wheels will have a greater effect than changing weight elsewhere, please explain why.

It would make no difference where you lost the weight from.

Err, yes it does.

I explained all the reasons up there ^, if you care to read them again it would stop everyone repeating themselves.

Also the analytic cycling website has models and graphs which clearly show the benefits of lighter wheels in different situations.

What they don’t take into account though is the effect lighter wheels have on suspension performance, handling and braking.

If you add up all these benefits, you will find saving weight at the wheels is worthwhile.

Exactly.

If you phoned Orange I am 100% sure they would say a 17″.

Its up to you but pretty much everyone your size rides a 17″. There is no way I would buy a 16″ if were me (hence why I bought a 17″) I would rather a longer TT and shorter stem, than a long stem and short TT.

The Hope Race X2 wins the review this months STW. Best feel, more than enough power, serviceability, easy to get hold of spares, easy to bleed, and decent warranty service.

The Hopes

Destined to be a classic brake. Nigh on perfect for virtually all UK riding and riders. Good weight, decent power and immense feel

This is what it says about XT’s

These are ideal for speed scrubbers. At first braking is very binary and really feels like a switch, with little middle ground for feeling what the brake is actually doing. This does improve as you get used to it but not a great deal.

Like I have said before, power isn’t everything.

It depends on your inside leg measurement RJ. The OP has short legs long torso, and would definitely fit a 17″ better due to the longer TT. Also if you are used to riding a small bike it will feel strange.

I am 5″11′ with a 31.5 inside leg and can ride a 16″, but when I get on mine (17″) I realise the 16″ is actually way too small.

The right size doesn’t just help on the climbs, it will feel more stable on the downs.

I would definitely say a 17″, I am practically the same height and ride a 17″.

How tall are you and whats your inside leg measurement?

If you had the saddle all the way back, it sounds like you could do with the next size up.

I only read the first few sentences, things like that get to me too much.

He should get the death penalty, simple as that.

LOL…you still don’t even get it!

No grandad, you still don’t get it. You must have forgotten to take your alzheimer’s medication for the past few days because you seem to have forgotten what you are even arguing about.

Anyway….why are you 2 so obsessed with putting me down? Did you get mixed up in the crossfire of some flame a thon?

You started it old boy, I have only been giving as good as I was getting.

It seems that when you don’t have the answer to the undeniable facts, you resort to petty name calling.

Minnows like you really shouldn’t try to mix it with the big hitters until at least your voice has broken.

Calling yourself a big hitter 😆 it gets better and better. Not only are you confused by simple physics, you have to resort to blowing your own trumpet because no one will do it for you.

😆

Riding a bike at 10-15 mph, you are using the same amount of energy as you are walking.

Skywalker, nothing, I already called it….

This… http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-GP-Cycles-RAD-1-Downhill-Suspension-Frame-RARE-/310366963498?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D200677562580%252B200677562580%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5070714340489177802

Win.

That doesn’t count, some idiot asking way too much for a second hand frame!

Al you are wrong, face it.

I have said nothing that can’t be backed up by physics.

Lighter wheels are worth while, for the points I outlined up there ^

If you don’t believe me, buy the heaviest tires you can find, and some of the lightest ones, and see how much better your bike rides with the lighter ones.

Have fun tomorrow, being surrounded by 30 people of higher intelligence.

Nighty night, don’t let the bed bugs bite 😆

Most of your factual points are correct…you’ve also expressed a few opinions which are subjective and so incapable of being proved either wrong nor right.

No, they are all correct and can be proven so by simple physics.

But that’s not really against what crikey and I were saying, so you’ve changed your point

I haven’t changed my point, I was originally saying that you were wrong for saying this;

Rotating mass in bicycle wheels has an insignificant effect, however often the myth is repeated.
If anyone can show it makes a difference, rather than claiming it does, I’m open to having my opinion changed.

TBF crikey me sober chum, so does non-rotating weight.

And

Being offensive suits you BTW…and it appears to be all you’ve got.

I haven’t been offensive, you two were the ones being childish and resorting to insults.

Run along now 😆

£280 for two dropouts

What do I win?

Lighter wheels accelerate faster, we already agree on that right?

They handle better because of the reduced gyroscopic effect. You can notice this by simply putting on slightly lighter tires!

They stop quicker for the same reason they accelerate quicker.

They cause your suspension to work more efficiently because the suspensions job is to keep the wheel in contact with the ground. The wheel is forever being bounced up and down by rocks/roots/bumps etc. The heavier the wheel, the more work the suspension has to do to keep in contact with the ground. The less unsprung weight it has to deal with, the better it can do its job.

All this combined makes saving weight on your wheels worth while.

Not really much to argue about is there?

What am I supposed to be proving exactly?

That lighter wheels accelerate faster, handle better, stop quicker, and let your suspension work more efficiently.

Whereas heavier wheels accelerate slower, handle worse, stop slower, and cause your suspension to work less efficiently.

Do you expect me to show you all that in formulas?

And please stop trying to be offensive, it doesn’t suit you 😆

What price have they offered you for the spec you wanted?

If you read that link from beginning to end you wouldn’t be asking such stupid questions and you would realise that you don’t actually have a valid argument. You are just making yourselves look stupid by thinking you know what you are on about.

It deals with everything you need to know.

Edit: Plus there is the analytic cycling site if you are still having trouble figuring it out.

Can’t and can’t be bothered are slightly different.

Talking to you is like trying to teach a child that doesn’t want to learn, pointless.

I got bored of you ages ago mate.

Making up your own theories based on nothing, nice…..

You still going on 🙄

They’re not, they are out of stock.

You could get a valve head and cabinet for that price, are you mad?

What a horribly sneery comment to make.

I forgot you are only allowed to slag off Orange Fives, sorry.

You know you were considering a Blur LT Carbon? Probably worth mentioning that:

http://www.stif.co.uk/mtb/product/santa-cruz-blur-lt-carbon–frame-2012/7612
+
http://www.canyon.com/_uk/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=2568

Would be £1000 cheaper than:

http://www.stif.co.uk/mtb/product/santa-cruz-blur-lt-carbon-xtr-am–bike-2012/8669

After selling the Canyon frame you’d be £1500 better off, with a better wheelset too. In a Tesco Value sort of way though right?

I would except I have all the parts. Good plan though if you had a spare £5500.

Cheaper here with free delivery, thats where we get ours.

Or 15kg + 3kg free for lamb and rice. .

They sold out already

The trolling does explain the quietness on another thread

On school lunch break are you son?

Indecisive Al, hows it going mate?

Thats a woman ^ I always thought you were a bloke!

You’re not very good at this are you skywalker?

Trolling requires a little bit more than you reinforcing peoples opinions of you.

I’m sorry, I will behave from now on.

Damn! I was just about to quote this: “Quite a few bites within 10 minutes, its too easy”, and say just that!

A cracking example I think!

is that the Edinburgh defence?

Really? I think you are reading into it a bit much folks.

And another one.

Quite a few bites within 10 minutes, its too easy 😆

Really?

So why else would you want your weight too far over the rear of the bike making it massively unbalanced?

People who use layback posts usually have stupidly long stems too, because their frame is too small maybe?