I found it all a bit confusing… And I’m not sure i want to give money to a company with such a laissez faire attitude to health and safety… 😉

Have not read every link, but a branded fake frame is a trademark, copyright infringement.

A frame that copies patented design cues is also a copyright infringement.
But for some reason, people on here think that’s fine…

The reason the unbranded R5 copy from Deng Fu would be unlikely to be confiscated is that very few customs officials would recognise the similarities unless it’s festooned with logos.

And it seems, that on that basis, this is where we find the dividing line between STW’s double standards: people are happy to buy, use or tolerate fakes, as long as they’re faked in a way that makes it unlikely for them to ever be held accountable for committing a crime.

The Eames chairs are a perfect example of how companies rip people off; a friend has had both a ‘real’ chair and a ‘fake, and the two were indistinguishable. More than likely made in the same factory. He sold the ‘real’ one at a sizeable profit, and kept the ‘fake’.

They’re not made in the same factory. The European licenced version is made by Vitra in Germany and costs about £3600-£4000. The “originals” are made by Herman Miller in the US.

Mine is exact in every way, but made in China for a quarter of the price. I’d sat the base is cast from an original, even the clips that attach the pads to the shells are identical. I’d lusted after one for over 20 years, so I’m quite familiar with it, and I can also confirm that it’s indistinguishable apart from lacking the Eames signature sticker on the base.

“Made in China” doesn’t mean “poor quality”. It often means better quality than something made in Europe.

Show me the person who would try so hard to justify buying a fake bike frame and would buy an original Eames chair.

It’s not a ‘licenced’ Eames Chair, I was joking… the workstand is real though! 😀

It’s real… It’s a fake Park workstand though… 😉

It’ll coil up at the first hint of a bump!

Plus, they stole their logo of either Prime Location or Powell & Peralta…

rumour has it they are shite

Good at spreading rumours these industry types, aren’t they… 😉

Ive heard rumours that they’re excellent… I’d rather believe they’re not as good as my proper one, but the point I’m making is that there is just as much plagiarism in this frame – that the STW Massive seem to think is OK – as there is in an S5-esque frame with a Cervelo logo printed on the side.

The seatstays are identical to the R5… And yes, they are pencil thin. I was told that the stays don’t take much structural load – their roll is more triangulation rather than load-bearing. The massive chainstays provide the strength.

I would imagine you could get this frame for around £400, you’d have to email them for a quote…

Look familiar?

…And just to keep this debate going in the right direction, what are people’s thoughts on this?

Hong Fu are one of the most respected of the Chinese manufacturers that supply direct, and this is their latest lightweight road frame and forks.

Obviously, it’s blank, but it’s almost identical to my genuine R5. I believe Cervelo have patented the “Squoval” tube profile and one or two other features. So would it be perfectly OK to import this bike?

OK, on the face of it, it looks like a very traditional design, but if you know the R&D that went into the original, it’s arguable that this is a far more shameless ripoff than simply printing counterfeit logo.

Alternative thread summary.

OP asks for advice for idea he has is just kicking about.

Near entire population of forum breaks down in to a seething mass fury, comparable to an Orwellian 2 minutes of hate, and spew forth bile about Chinese carbon.

That’s getting a bit closer to the truth Jon. As I said before, this frame isn’t really on my shopping list, I’m just interested in what people’s thoughts are. If I was to choose something like the S5 replica, it would be down to the fact that it’s a brilliant aero frame design with the perfect geometry for crit racing. The only reason to choose a stickered one would be that it looks flippin cool! Cervelo graphic designs at the moment are some of the best in the business.

As for me being a poor rider that crashes a lot, well, luckily (touch wood) I’ve not got tangled up in any of the big stacks yet, but in the series I race, I’ve seen 2 big pile ups that have resulted in a lot of very expensive carbon splinters. I don’t want my best bike involved in that, so for the crits, I use last season’s race bike with Ultegra wheels.

brant – Member

As an amusing point to this thread, one of my contacts at one of our carbon factories has announced she is leaving today and has cc’d not bcc’d all her contacts in her book.

Do you plan an exposé Brant? Or are you going to respect your contact’s privacy?… I’m sure there are many that wouldn’t… 😉

edlong – Member
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say that there were no bike factories that made bikes for more than one brand. Apologies if my brevity implied that. The post I was responding to seemed to be implying that all the bikes were coming from the same factories. That would not be true.

Edlong, why on earth are you trying to argue about something you clearly know nothing about!

There are 2 massive manufacturers in China that make all Giant, Cervelo, Scott, Trek, Ridley, Colnago and Specialized carbon frames, plus literally hundreds of other brands. They in turn use hundreds of smaller manufacturers. It’s difficult to grasp the scale of these operations, but we’re talking about an area bigger than Northern Ireland, packed full of factories making everything from furniture to fake Ferraris.

You also have to understand that China lead the world in carbon and composite manufacture. There’s no reason why a backstreet factory employing half a dozen peasants can’t produce a frame of an equivalent quality to Ten Tech – the company that made my real Cervelo.

speaking to the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it’s a fake.

I find this soooo unbelievably unbelievable. NOBODY would by a £400 frame from China and then contact Pinarello for a warranty replacement!

If I were to feed a baby on fake Cervelo S5, would its face turn into a baby robin??

Are fake Cervelos made of poisonous baby milk??? Have I missed something? Will I get a skin disease?

You’ve denied the maker of a similarly priced frame a sale, obviously.

If the same manufacturer sells it naked or painted up, and someone bought the painted one, who are they depriving?

And are you saying its perfectly OK to make a mould identical to an R5 as long as they sell it naked?

So which company makes it/them then?

XPA Cycling of China. They’re a very well respected supplier of branded, unbranded, OEM and knock-off bikes. Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see… 🙄

why buy a 6 grand bike and not race it… It must be the most expensive shopping bike ever…

I’ve said this. Several times. There are lots of crashes in crit races. I don’t want to smash a £6.5k bike. Understand?

I’ve never been to the shops on it.

OP I think you should buy the fake just because of how comically angry it clearly makes some people.

I might just do this… It does make me laugh that despite the fact that I’ve said on more than one occasion that I’m very unlikely to get one of these, people seem to be frothing at the keyboards about it!

It’s as though they view the big bike brands as demi-gods that must never have their names taken in vane. The same people are probably perfectly happy riding round in fake Oakleys, or buying a hooky Rolex or Prada sunnies off a looky-looky man in Marbs.

They’re also perfectly happy riding a bike, driving a car or watching a TV that lifts technology directly from another manufacturer.

I mentioned earlier that the Chinese government doesn’t pursue copyright claims, China is an emerging nation in terms of manufacturing and if the government doesn’t impose copyright or IP laws in the same way as ours does, your average citizen will have a very different attitude towards that sort of thing.

Sancho said Surely your parents brought you up better to know right from wrong. earlier. The people making fake frames don’t necessarily judge it as ‘wrong’, in the same way that western cultures didn’t before people started getting all hoity and making laws to protect their own interests.

The reason antique furniture is so easy to date is that in days of yore, furniture makes just copied what others had made. Just because they weren’t copying logos doesn’t mean they were copying anything any less distinctive – we’re talking about a time before logos, when a large proportion of the population couldn’t read.

I think that as an analogy, this is pretty close. Your average Chinese factory worker can’t even read the word “Cervelo”.

as the OP disagrees with the pricing practices of Cervelo he then thinks it ok to buy a counterfit product to save money.

Sancho, I’ve mentioned this once or twice or 5 FRICKING TIMES ON THIS THREAD ALREADY, but for the benefit of the hard of thinking like yourself:

I ALREADY HAVE A BRAND NEW CERVELO R5 BOUGHT FROM AN AUTHORISED DEALER!!!

But I don’t want to enter a crit race on a six-and-a-half-grand bike due to the amount of crashes.

Could you walk me through the logic of how buying a fake Cervelo, thereby increasing the sales and profits for the people who make fake Cervelos, doesn’t harm Cervelo? I’m not getting it.

It’s not rocket science Edlong… Tell me if I’m going too fast for you.

1. I’m* looking for a cheap carbon frame, c.£400

2. Cervelo don’t make anything that sells for less that £2000.

3. Cervelo aren’t on my* shopping list

4. Lots of Chinese manufactures make frames for c.£400

5. They are on my* shopping list

6. If I* buy a cheap Chinese frame with “Cervelo” painted on the side, the only person I’m* depriving of a sale would be a cheap Chinese manufacturer that didn’t paint “Cervelo” on the side of his frames…

Are you following?

*I/I’m/my = the hypothetical shopper/Devil’s advocate.

Which of the companies you mentioned in your OP are branding cheap Chinese frames?
The Ribble Sportive & On One SL are built by Pedalforce – a highly respected manufacturer in their own right.
They are not, by any means, a ‘Chinarello’ or low quality fake.
Totally different things.

The Ribble Stealth/R872 is an exact copy of a De Rosa. There seems to be a suggestion that the same company make the mike for De Rosa AND sell it unbranded, or branded Ribble, or whatever else you ask. Probably even Cervelo, Pinarello or De Rosa I would imagine – the Chinese government impose virtually zero copyright control if it’s at the expense of an export sale. (Google about fake BMW X5s if you want this fact corroborating.)

So yes, the Ribble is exactly that – a Chinarello, a fake, a knock off, a from-the-same-mould-as-a-top-end-Italian-bike-but-made-with-T700-and-sold-for-a-fraction-of-the-price… Whatever you want to call it.

I am not aware if any reputable chinese manufacturer who produces for the west and also sells fakes. You think the cycling industry is likely to stand for this behavior? not really.

As I said earlier, Mirage. They sell a Cervelo S5 replica.

What you say about T700 and T1000 fibres makes absolutely no sense in this discussion.

Interesting that you’re happy to say that about my comment but don’t seem to be able to back it up. Would you care to please?

Strikes me as a sign of being untrustworthy & overly obsessed with status.

Just to clarify, I’m looking for a cheap bike that I can thrash and crash without worrying. I don’t care what it says on it, as I clearly stated in my first post, these are available for the same money as a ‘nude’ frame and invited thoughts.

To be honest, it’s provoked an interesting discussion, and I’m absolutely AMAZED that people are ADAMANT that frames are poor quality and dangerous just because they have a counterfeit name on the side, whereas bikes from the same manufacturers are being sold for upwards of £1000 after being “branded” by British bike companies.

Yes, there are some poor quality manufacturers in China, but there’s enough information online to form an accurate opinion on who’s worth buying from if you’re prepared to take a bit of time. If I bought ANY bike from the Far East, I’d be doing my homework first!

It’s certainly interesting that our very English sense of fair play and values sways people’s judgment of people who work within a completely different set of laws values, and indeed, a different culture…

(and for the record, it’s highly unlikely I would go for one of these,just interested in peoples’ thoughts)

At the same time you also display a worrying level of naivety:

Having seen a couple of Chinarello Dogmas, the build quality and finish is superb – easily comparable to the real deal.

It’s widely accepted that these bikes tend to be built from Toray T700 rather than the more expensive T1000 that is used for the top end branded bikes, but I’ve been riding a T700 frame for the past 3 years and it’s more than adequate for my Cat3/4 power outputs!

You have to remember Chief, these manufacturers are building reputations of their own, so it’s not good for business to send sub standard crap out. And when you start to scratch the surface, there are literally millions of pages devoted to discussions about the quality of these frames, and very few of those devoted to failures. From my own experience, I’ve seen as many photos of genuine snapped Treks, Cervelos, giants, Specializeds etc as I have of Chinese bikes.

I had a nosey at yours when you first built it up Ben… Which manufacturer did you get it from?

And yep, I ride Keo (genuine ones too!!) so I might take you up on that offer! We need to get out for a ride sometime…

So given that he owns several pairs of genuine Oakleys as well as fakes, is he:

I also own a genuine top-end Cervelo race bike, bought from an authorised dealer with full warranty.

There is a world apart between the knock off fake companies making copied moulds of frames and the companies manufacturing unbranded frames or frames for other companies.

Rubbish! The same companies make them all, Mirage (IIRC) make the S5 replica and they’re highly reputable – their blank frames are resold by many manufacturers and are highly regarded.

But It boils my piss that people think it’s acceptable to buy counterfit goods, would the OP mind if I reported him to the police for fraud if he buys a counterfit frame, it’s like people selling fake rolex watches and fake perfume it’s all just fraud and illegal.

I have 3 pairs of Fakelys… As well as about 6 pairs of real Oakleys, do you want to report me for that? I buy proper ones for road biking and the cheap clones for mountain biking as it doesn’t matter if they get scratched. If the Fakelys weren’t available, I’d be using cheap Bollé safety glasses. So again, I’m not depriving Oakley of a sale.

I find it rather amusing that I’m making your piss boil… Never has trolling been so easy! 😉

I would personally say that buying a fake bike frame is not even close to buying an unbranded frame from a reputable framemaker. Or a cheap carbon frame from Ribble.

I’d say it’s exactly the same! Ribble don’t test individual bikes, and it’s widely known which frames Ribble buy – you can buy the exact same frames, unbranded, direct from exactly the same manufacturer.

You’re judging these manufacturers on the basis that they must be wrong ‘uns because they’re counterfeiting. Look at the Chinese economy, and their laws regarding copyright, intellectual properties etc and you’ll see they are completely different to ours. Therefore, the values of individuals are different to ours.

Personally I think this is not ethically right,In the way supporting companies who make bikes to look like bikes from companies that have spent years building reputations and design etc.When playing with complex shapes as with the above frame you need a reasonable degree of knowledge of working with carbon.
As someone asipiring to be in the industry and getting my foot in the door,selling and using counterfeit goods isnt on.

Thing is Bruce, buying this frame isn’t depriving Cervelo of a sale, I’m looking for a cheap race frameset that isn’t going to break my heart if it gets a handlebar through the chainstays in a crash.

It’s never going to be passed off as real, it’s not meant to trick anyone into parting with money… It’s just a cheap frame…

You have to understand, the ‘real’ S5 is made in China, there’s no reason to believe that something like this won’t be made with exactly the same level of expertise. The only difference is that if I spend £3.5k on the proper one, it would have a warranty. But even Cervelo won’t replace a bike that’s got smashed up in a race!

There are a couple of teams knocking about on fake Dogmas with team decals on them… It’s not just a simple matter of applying vinyl stickers though, these are lacquered on my the manufacturer…

Your Eastons come in at about 1700g IIRC, so not very light, but not ridiculously heavy. You’d have to spend a big chunk to get anything noticeably lighter, £650 for a set of Dura Ace C24s at around 1350g for example, or a bit less if you went somewhere like Wheelsmith.

To be honest, 8kg isn’t bad for an alu roadbike.

I made a nice little space for a bench in my wood, on a little path that catches the early morning sun and overlooks a pretty little pool on the brook.

I’m looking forward to sitting and drinking my morning coffee there… 3 tons of crush-n-run and 2 tons of self-binding gravel to barrow down there first… 🙁

It was quite nice to utilise all that GCSE mathematics – pi, trigonometry etc – for the first time in 25 years…

So you just couldn’t be arsed changing your puncture, you’d already decided to call the missus for a lift, and these guys are bastards for not wasting their time by making an offer of help that you didn’t want???

Jeebus… And I thought I was hard work… 🙄

Seriously, you guys are such a bunch of martyrs! What the hell can go wrong with a bike that needs 2 people to fix?

Riding without a spare tube and patches is just irresponsible. Riding without the knowledge to repair a mechanical is irresponsible. Why the hell should one person’s ineptitude and laziness spoil or jeopardise another cyclist’s ride?

fair enough, if I saw a rider who had crashed, I’d stop to help – I have on more than one occasion. And if a rider asked for help, I’d stop. But I’ve got better things to do than get myself covered in oil because some numpty doesn’t know how to put his own chain back on!

(why is it having such a small head thoughbut ?)

I believe it’s to give it a sporting chance.

Obviously Shibboleth wouldn’t but it’s a well known fact that the shibmeister is an utter cock and will get karma’d into a nailed down packing crate and set adrift in the Atlantic before too long

Yes, but I get to keep my gleaming white bar tape clean and my spare tube remains reassuringly coiled up in my back pocket. 😉

What did you expect them to do? I wouldn’t dream of giving my spare tube to a stranger – why on earth would I risk finding myself marooned to help someone that’s gone out ill-prepared?

I see a target.

Jay from the Inbetweeners: “going at it like a dog eating hot chips”

[pedant]This is a “simile”, not a euphemism… As would be “I walked in to find him on his hands and knees, lapping away like thirsty dog at a puddle”
[/pedant]

“Growling at the badger…”

60cm is way too big for a 5’10 person, you’d be looking at a 54-56cm…

I’m 6’1″ and my 58cm Ribble felt too big…

On a similar theme, I remember a friend referring to an ex girlfriend as having “liked to wear the blue jacket”.

I had no idea what this means, but was told that in dog racing parlance, the dog in Trap 2 wears the blue jacket… 😳