p.s.

neil the wheel

I also asked the RoW officer in my email whether they would ever write to a landowner telling them to tell cyclists not to use a RoW if it was downgraded from BW footpath. Whether or not cyclists are allowed on a FP is entirely at the landowner’s discretion, surely? AND I wonder how many landowners are aware of this?

If a BW was downgraded to a FP then the landowner will have been advised of their amended legal obligations in the process of downgrading. They wouldn’t be specifially told to tell cyclists they couldn’t ride there anymore because the council would change the waymarking (and add notices stating the status of the path has changed), placing the obigation back onto the path user to act within the law. TBH downgrades very rarely happen though.

Bikers can lawfully ride on a FP with the landowners permission, and although as not many do, them not knowing this admittedly obscure legal tidbit therefore isn’t an issue. Landowners that give permission for bikes to ride on FP’s automatically satisfy the legal requirements :)

There’s nothing stopping you from leading groups of walkers / riders / whatever on a PRoW for profit, but you can’t “promote or take part in a race” unless authorised.

Depending on the extent of the language / behaviour, it could be an offence under the Highways Act or if not then the Public Order Act.

Landowners / occupiers are obliged to have to know where Rights of Way cross their land; TBH I deal with this everyday and 99% of landowners know exactly what they’re doing, where the paths are and what they should / shouldn’t do.

Quite often even I have difficulty getting through to them, so my advise would be to politely acknowledge them but not talk directly (“ok” or “thank you”) to carry on and when you get back, report the problem to your local PRoW team – the chances are they do it to everybody who use the path and they need stopping.

If on the other hand if you genuinely believe a path is a BW (even though it turns out to be a FP) then the PRoW team need to know the waymarking needs looking at and for then to talk to the landowner to explain what went wrong.

Sounds great, if only it all can’t be like that! In fairness though there are quite a few places that are just like your valley.

In my opinion its not about the number of users or the length of Right of Way or even if you’re on the wrong path, but more the proportion and balance of users; not too many walkers, not too few horses, etc. What that goldilocks proportion is, I have no idea.

Of course some people are just arses and theres nothing you can do to change them. Just enjoy the nice people that you meet :)

Although the specifics are covered in my article[/url], generally speaking Bridleways are only improved if there is a financial ability to meet the reasonable needs of the users, in this case, horses beause as mentioned above there is only a statutory duty to provide reasonably convenient access for horses.

Local authorities are provided £x0, 000 for A B and C. The local horse group says ‘please repair bridleways 1, 2, and 3!’, usually as a circular ride or ‘missing link’. These are improved in accordance with accepted guidelines for physical improvements to a BW (beyond BSEN standards for outdoor furniture) from the SNH / BTCV / BHS / etc

What is reasonably convenient? There is no fixed answer really, but it has to be acceptable & navigable to the general everyday rider (like trail centers really; not ideal for everyone).

I totally accept that a good horse / rider can do things an equally good bike / rider cannot do, which is perhaps fortunate why not every local authority can afford to maintain every single BW, so the occasional ‘difficult’ BW still exists (or what I do and leave the gnarly ones and plead ignorance!), however as local authorities need to act prudently it is in their interests if a BW is dangerously out of repair it can be closed for emergency repairs. Maybe in 25 years every BW will be ‘sanitised’, but by that point the old improved ones will be interesting again.

Ultimately its a balancing act for every RoW employee like me, and when we make mistakes by being over-zealous or too cautious, please let us know and share your knowledge with us so we won’t make the same mistakes again!

Please ask if anyone has any questions, I’ll head over to the other thread now

p.s. BW’s generally are only improved for horses, not for any low-mobility / multi-user path, and although it may look like a load of hardcore chucked down, there is a technique to it in order to try and maintain the surfaces ability to cope with hooves

p.p.s. yes it is annoying the minority of horse riders, as vocal & key players of a horse-riding group, seem to dictate what happens on everyones BW’s, but the projects are normally time-sensitive and if someone comes to you on day 1 with a list of BW’s, photos, the BHS approved spec, names / numbers of landowners who have given pre-approval, and a promise to help out volunteering 1 day a week what can we (the council) do? I say “thank you very much!” and basically do what they ask – sorry

Yeah, its very wet ATM from the masts down onto the worlds end road, I’d do what project said. Or start / finish in llangollen? It’s mostly along (quiet) roads, but adds around two fairly nice hours.

Its a long shot, but have the notices been served in accordance with the relevant statute? i.e. being “advertised in two consecutive weeks in a newspaper circulating in the area in which the land is situated”. It won’t be of much use if not, but could cause a useful delay.

At the risk of giving more nerd-gasms, theres a pretty good trailer breakdown here

If you ever go to Muff, be sure to visit the Muff Diving club.

There is also a Pantystain in Flintshire. Giggety.

[edit]

Not a town, but there is a ‘Badgers rough’ somewhere near me. I’ll have to go one day to make sure if it is or not 8O

Another disappointed Fat Duck’er here (though bumped into Richard Corrigan as I was leaving), the Hardwick was much better than I thought, and the private treatment (ohh err) by Angela Hartnett before she left the Connaught was out of this world.

Probably the best ‘experience’ was Purnells for my birthday a few months ago, but the best food outright was the seafood in the Foveran on Orkney – or friday noodles in TryThai in wrexham :P

mrmo – Member
let me get this straight, the council do not own the track and every couple of years come along and do some repairs?

Who actually owns the land on which the track is?

Paths usually go over privately-owned land, but the width of the path down to the depth of a spade (an old saying is “so much of the soil below and the air above as is necessary”) is the part owned and maintained by the council / authority.

Outside council / authority departments the terms are interchangeable, but the ‘path’ is the physical entity and the ‘highway’ is the legal entity.

There isn’t much difference in terms of maintaining an adopted highway and as in this case a bridleway. They’re both maintainable at the public expence, but ‘bridleway’ refers to the legal status. Regardless, the surface has to be of a type suitable for its intended use under ‘normal’ traffic (e.g. there isn’t a quarry along the access road).

If, as you have right of vehicular access along it, and its damaging your and your neighbours cars, you are more than within your rights to improve the surface yourself – if anything you’ll be making the surface better for horses too, unless you do something so bad that in which case you probably couldn’t drive up it.

So yes, your neighbours shouldn’t really have any concerns and yes, they do seem to be using it as an excuse. Horse riders only run into tarmac problems on gradients around and more than 10 degrees.

Neither would you be held responsible if a horse were to injure themselves on a pot hole caused by your vehicular use as ultimately its the councils responsibility for maintaining the surface even with cars driving on it (‘normal’ traffic again) – although strictly speaking councils don’t want to be seen to repair surface damage on a PRoW caused by vehicular damage but as long as its not too bad it *shouldn’t* be a problem.

So, ask the council to do a proper job next time around, and if they say no or plead poverty or take too long just tell them you’ll do it yourselves (secretly they’ll be relieved :wink: ).

Shout if you need more info

[edit]

probably worth a try seeing if the council will write to you confirming this, you can then show your neighbours the letter

oh, don’t bother getting the land adopted either for the reasons mentioned above

Strictly speaking you could have a TRO specifying no cycling on a RB – although I’ve never heard of this happening – or indeed a specific bylaw, which is why the ranger / warden could lawfully ask you to stop.

However to be enforcable the restriction would still need to be correctly signed (including people getting ‘no biking’ signs wrong!), and if they’re put up incorrectly – even by well meaning volunteers – it defeats the whole point.

Good to see peakdistrictnpa posting BTW

What thisisnotaspoon said, but I’d say the storm is to the purg what the purg is to the eskar (though eskars shed mud almost as well as a purg if you run then at a slightly higher pressure). If I were you I’d have a storm on the back, but YMMV

My grandfather was treated dreadfully by the nazis – six years and no promotion.

Not really, he actually ended up working for our Army instead (though he had changed his name from Sf. Stein to Sgt. Smith, for obvious reasons)

No

Countryside access officer with t’council (north east wales). Love it, and I get to tell myself off (and ignore me) at the weekend for riding where I shouldn’t 8O

binners – Member

I think the unions were far too keen to get out on strike. They need to be shrewd. The Tories will be. Unfortunately, I feel this is the opening salvo from them. I think they’re settling in for the long haul. A prolonged battle. With who-knows-what ultimate aims. Depressing

I’m a public sector worker and am not in a union – I don’t agree with a strike at this time. Working to rule would have been a much better move; I think we are indeed in for the long-haul and IMO the unions have just played their strongest hand at the earliest opportunity.

I will therefore be crossing the picket line tomorrow morning, its not something I will particularly look forward to but I genuinely think striking now (not striking EVER) is wrong, and believe me when I’ve thought long and hard about it.

I know that I will not be alone in coming in too.

I tried recently to order some clutch & butcher control tyres (each coming on various UK 2012 models as fancied something other than purgs / eskars) via specialized UK – I might as well have been ordering plutonium or something.

I eventually found a few dealers in america and they point blank refused to export them … *shrug*

I’ll have a look in work on thursday and drop you an email if I can find something, if that’s ok?

You could also try google for ‘natural england ROWIP update reports’ for before / after photos?

You can’t reasonably submit a Section 56 unless you can prove its already been brought to the attention of the relevant authority. Saying someone sent someone an email isn’t really enough unfortunately.

You mention you’ve established that its “under the jurisdiction of the local highways department” but your first port of call is to determine if its publicly maintainable (not all highways are, which is why it could be nothings happened) and which department (e.g. if its an adopted road or a PROW) will need to deal with it.

If it is (and it sounds like it) in your letter / email to them mention that this was brought to the attention of the authority some 9 months ago (try and include proof). C.C. in the local councillor and/or lead member as this clearly isn’t good enough for a cycle route. Ask for a written reply within 14 days stating when it will be inspected/repaired together with a copy of their maintenance priority scheme (if applicable).

If you can’t identify a specific member of staff or address then write to the Chief Executive as above.

If you’re not happy with the answer (e.g. they say 6 months or if its a time beyond that written in their maintenance priority scheme) then threaten them with the Section 56.

Shout if you need more info

Here’s something similar – IIRC its public nuisance / wilful obstruction / negligence, even if you shouldn’t be there. Proving who did it though would obviously be difficult.

It would definitely be worth contacting the ranger with a complaint as if there is a public safety problem they then can’t ignore it.

Yeah, they’re the police and can do pretty much what they like, assuming the reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. I presume they’ve been told not to rip up too much wherever they go. Does look like fun though :)

I know I always bang on about it, its still worth repeating: –

There is only a statutory responsibility for bridleways to be of a standard suitable for horses, although the appropriateness of the path for bikes is of course considered. It is a balancing act but ultimately it’s all about the horses; this is why some bridleways are resurfaced so that they effectively become sanitised for bikers.

But as TJ said, give it a few months and it’ll bed in. There is also the problem with funding: –

There are a million things that need sorting before the councils ruin our favourite tracks

I agree in principle, but local authorities generally get given extra funding from central government for improvements of this type (called a ROWIP) as a Rights of Way Departments normal funding is a fraction of a percent of the authorities general expenditure.

My baseline (pre-ROWIP grants) RoW budget is around £75, 000 (thats nothing in the scheme of things and typical of the level of funding across the country), so I tend to look at it from the other perspective and ask why is the highways department spending for example £75, 000 on speed bumps (or road calming, or whatever its called) on road XYZ when I could put it to much better use? Or meals on wheels could double their provision? Or it could pay for 5 classroom assistants? At the end of the day each department is given £X,000 as thats what the lead members (who are democratically elected) decide.

As I go on to mention in my article[/url], RoW departments are told by central government at the very last minute when (or if) they will get extra money. We get told in February that you have £60, 000 extra this April and it MUST be spent by next April – yes, this means that sometimes projects are rushed and mistakes are made, but if it means bringing a majority of those ‘wish list’ contingency projects up and running then so be it. There are only 5 of us (really not meaning to sound hard-done to!) and we genuinely do our best.

If you’re not happy please get in touch with your PRoW team and bring it up with the LAF, which neatly brings me on to: –

i looked at getting involved with the local access group. a quick look at the meeting schedule revealed meetings held on a tuesday morning etc. hardly conducive to getting the public involved, but i’m sure very convenient for the coucil employees

The council has ZERO say on what or how a LAF operates – thats the whole point of a LAF, as an independent oversight committee made up of the public to make sure the RoW department gets things right, and when/if we mess up they are (in my LAF, and also my experience of my neighbouring LAF’s) on us like a tonne of bricks.

Like yunki says: –

contact your rights of way officer as a representative of a user group then it’s possible to at least begin to discuss management appropriate to the main user regarding specific RoWs..?

Please ring your RoW department and get involved – make our voices heard!

cycl1ngjb – Member
Hope (Ceramic £80) + GXP Adaptor £9

Having gone through 2 BB’s in 7 months (all under warranty though), this is what I went with. Not had a problem in 3 or so months, which is a nice change :)

Sounds good. I noticed a month or so ago the new northshore bit past the jumps (I had a cheeky ride – I assumed they hadn’t finished as it just ended suddenly with a 5ft drop about 50ft from some ancient looking jumps, or is it still there?)

Hopefully the boring bit along the watercourse (the leet? there were lots of blue pipes in a pile) is avoided.

Used to beat when I was about 14/15, £5 a day and free beer at the end of the day wasn’t bad at all. Plus I learnt a lot from the old boys about wildlife, the great outdoors (TM), and the odd smattering of survivalism / etc.

I still get a few birds now and then from a mate who shoots, because I’m not (legally) allowed a gun any more :| – a decent local butcher would have a game contact. Like some clubs, they sometimes can be quite cliquey, so you may spend a while finding a shooting club you feel like you’d spend time with.

Another vote for Spesh Eskars. Quite cheap too.

nedrapier and others, its actually called Alice in Wonderland syndrome :-)

I used to get this a lot as my family has a history of poor sleep, and am very familiar with episodes like the OP describes with the feeling of terror, loss of movement etc. Totally normal (I forget the name of it, but basically its a nightmare when you’re awake but your brain forgets to stop).

I used to get it so much I learned to control it, together with altering my AIWS perception (I could even bring it on half the time as I liked the feeling), and sometimes also my dreams too, rarely nowadays I get lucid dreams where I see my dreams infront of what I’m looking at in bed (normally a wall) but my dreams are smaller and kind of in black and white.

Nothing to be afraid of and don’t worry about tonight, just try to remember its not real :wink:

Fascinating really when you think about it, interesting too the history to sleep disorders, and the origins of demons, poltergeists, and night MAREs, etc :)

My 2p worth: –

It, IMHO, boils down to bad timing in the 50’s when PRoWs were recorded. Parish surveyors, in fairness, didn’t really pay as much attention to recording the status of route as they should have done; in the surveyors mind it wouldn’t really matter if it was a BW or not, simply because horses weren’t really used as much as they were pre-WW2, and of course, MTB’s weren’t invented yet. Their task was predominantly to record the alignment of the path and to write a simple description.

If the exercise were repeated today it’d envisage it being unless there is a reason not to, record it as a BW and allow walkers / horses / bikes. There would be though a new classification of recorded RoW for use by walkers and bikes only, like a cycle path.

Of course there’s also the old chestnut of BW’s only having to be of a standard suitable for horses, not bikes. Magically changing every FP to a BW would be great, but there’d be more to do.

It, again IMO, would be easier if riding on a FP *was* a criminal offence as it’d be easier to legalise / decriminalise it. At present, and its been mentioned above, as it’s a civil offence it can’t be easily be resolved by statute – i.e. how can you legalise something when its not illegal?

Uhh, what was the question again? :P

Interviewer “If you were a pie, what pie would you be?”
Me “Sweet or savoury?”
Interviewer “Doesn’t matter”
Me “A pork pie. Pork pies don’t like stupid questions”

Didn’t get it :)

One of my strangest ever job interviews I was asked about alien conspiracies for 20 mins – I ended up being Tom Bakers bodyguard … which was nice.

http://www.llangollenbedandbreakfast.co.uk/

Bike friendly, parking for 2 cars, 15 mins along canal to town, from £25 pppn. Friends stayed there last year / year before and they enjoyed it :)

No free potatoes I’m afraid, it actually said “+potato to all STW forumites” (couldn’t think of anything wittier sorry). ‘fraid I missed you daisy, all the bikes became a blur after a while :)

hilldodger – Member

Better to get some waterproof mid cut technical shoes and have them soled in Stealth Rubber.

After many attempts at having a go myself and failing every time, I’ve decided on this too. £30 from these guys, probably with an old pair of northface hedgehogs. Better than trenchfoot TBH.

mrchrispy – Member

Who had the STW sign at the top of one of the climbs btw???

Twas I! It just said hello to all STW forumers :)

Also, I have to repeat what my virtual neighbours said *waves hello BTW* – I’m disappointed in the poor / vandalised signage, and communication was obviously lacking at all levels from the local council resurfacing the wrong road, to the lady who lived at the top of where I was standing who came down and didn’t appear to know WTF was going on.

Hope to see it again next year, and glad you all made it back in one piece :)

Probably too late for the OP, but if anyone else is interested, there isn’t actually a standard width for a bridleway, but generally they should be wide enough for two horse riders to pass each other. If a BW goes across cultivated land they should be 2 m wide, 3 m for a field edge, and 4 m if newly fenced. Otherwise they’re as wide as they’re wide!

Quite often width is lost when new fencing is installed, so if you know its now narrower than it was, get in touch with your PRoW team like others have said. BW’s rarely have their width recorded in the statement, so enforcement is predominantly down to looking at old photos and comparing the locations of fences to other features like trees.

As for barbed wire, if used it should be on the other side of the fence (for both BW’s and FP’s) so users don’t get injured / clothing damaged / etc

Like aracer says, it can get far worse!

oops, double post

Winter jacket (like someone said, a slightly different design to my manky two year old one) / trousers, day-glo jacket, merino top, gloves. Last years base layers are still fine, so winter gear now sorted :)

In a nutshell the minister talked about something slighty outside his brief, the powers that be didn’t like it, he’s obviously been told to refer any future queries via DEFRA, who in turn suggest – amongst the usual civil service speak – getting in touch with the local PRoW department

It’s like the serpent eating its own tail :o

As it goes right past my house I will be wearing my STW fanboi mankini, El Diablo style

Yeah, I went early may. Really good TBH. Get there and have a brew, introductions and where you normally ride, etc. You have a quick hour or so to run through the day, the regular “toilets there, if theres a fire go there”, sign this and you’re off.

The morning was started on the basics; bike set up, tires, how to see what to check before you start (yes basic but its aways good to be reminded) then off into the woods to a secret-ish area. They (we had PJ too) ran through basic body position / braking / looking ahead etc and asked us to go up and down a fire road to see how we ride basically, with tasks going from braking heavily to getting put a length of northshore and rising the end higher and higher. Then we used the jump / tabletop to the side and went through pumping and timings, repeating it all the way, getting feedback and getting photo’d / video’d

Lunch, brew, then off onto the pump track for an hour / hour and a half to get pump timing and balance etc, then off to the skills track for another hour and a half, doing the drop offs (the bigger ones if you wanted) and the jumps (not the bigger ones for me though!).

All the time you get encouragement / feedback and the chance to pick donnys brain from anything from shock setup to gloves.

Then off to the center for cake and to review your / others footage, and a chance to ask questions. A few days later you get a DVD in the post with video and customised feedback.

Money very well spent TBH (though a few of us agreed it’s like learning to drive again, not that you’re doing stuff WRONG but there are better ways of doing things). TBH I felt like I’d levelled off skill-wise but learned a lot and feel like I’ve upped my skills and enjoyment. Yes you could go on youtube and save some cash but the interaction and question / answers was itself worth it

I was a bit nervous before I started but the guys couldn’t be nicer / chilled. Turn up wearing / riding what you’d normally ride and if there are bits you’d really not do there’s no pressure, and its really good to get close up to people (and someone as good as donny) and see the mistakes that you are inveriably doing too. The photos of yourself are really helpful as you can see what the instructors are talking about (e.g. you landed that much better as your heels were more down, etc)

Shout if you need more info :)