Bin the scales, increase happiness. 🙂

Surely there must be a bus driver somewhere on STW? 🙂

I think we need more details from the OP so can blame him a bit more. 🙂

piemonster – Member

And who is she?

Judging by google images, I’d say he’s some sort of drag act.

thx1138 – Member

Because the right-wing ‘solution’ isn’t working.

What we have isn’t particularly right wing.
I think we need a proper right wing political party. 🙂

And please keep it civil and respectful.

ahem

UKIP votoers got off their narrow-minded bigoted arses to vote

Did somebody order a crate full off hippos? 🙂

Only problem with the C1 is that it doesn’t have a boot.
That, and it has the worst gearbox of any car made within my lifetime.
🙂

MkII Micra.
Nothing to go wrong, 50mpg (petrol, so cheaper than diesel).
Wheels will have to come off, but that’s what QRs were invented for.

deviant – Member

I come across plenty of drug addicts in my professional capacity, they are vile….almost sub human.

Drugs aren’t the problem, I know plenty of people who can use drugs recreationally without any problems

You know plenty of people who use heroin or crack recreationally with no problems?
🙂

neninja – Member

I can’t see him ever kicking it while they are together as a couple

That may be one of the only angles you have; if you can get them to realise that without getting clean they will destroy themselves individually and as a couple.

deadlydarcy – Member

Can you show where this slogan has been used in this country in recent years?

The message is there with the proliferation of speed cameras all over the country.

dazh – Member

sbob, you’re right, you’ve got me bang to rights. I am the arbiter of what is discussed on this thread and have been secretly manipulating the debate with my subtle but effective trolling wizardry. In fact I’m so damn good at it I don’t even realise I’m doing it.

Several times I have pointed out that you have claimed I’ve said something I haven’t.
Either prove me wrong or jog on you foolish troll.

crankboy – Member
surely an advanced driving course would teach you how to read the speedo on a car dash board?

So I take it you are another that hasn’t bothered with further education for the road?

dazh – Member

A superb example of where average no speed cameras would be beneficial?

Unfortunately this also works.

dazh – Member

sbob, you obviously seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you on an internet forum is a troll.

No, I think you’re a troll for the reasons I listed earlier, pretending I said things I didn’t, et cetera.
Page 13, just under halfway down. It’s black and white.

Another feature of internet forums is that debate often very quickly evolves to cover subjects wider than the OP (Indeed STW is notorious for it!). I think we’d all agree this has happened in this case (ignoring the pedantic sillyness).

Yet you try and dictate what subject we actually discuss? 😕

You say you have lots of points to make about speed limits and how they should be applied. Lets have them!

You’ve done it again! Not only steering the topic of conversation but suggesting I’ve said something I haven’t.

Why would you do that if you weren’t trolling?
I hardly think you’re dim enough to not realise you’re doing it.

but you lose credibility with that one

My apologies, I missed out the smiley.
I was simply trying to insert some gentle humourous rib-poking in a thread that was getting quite heated.

Honest. 😀

dazh – Member

To be honest I’ve no idea what you’re arguing about any more.

That’s an obvious lie but I accept you’ve run out of troll feed and are probably starting to get weak.

Have you an actual point to make about the rights/wrongs of speed limits and who they apply to?

I have many points to make, why are you trying to steer me towards that particular topic?
If you want to keep things on topic, then the title was
“Average speed cameras work. Are they even on?”
to which the answer is yes. Case closed you can go now.

If you’d like to enlighten us without the willy waving I’m all ears.

What willy waving? You’re obviously not all ears as you have chosen to repeatedly ignore what I have actually written in your quest to troll.

My initial points were (as you’re pretending to be interested) that people need to take responsibility for themselves, and not be nannyed by the state, and that prevention is better than cure.

I appreciate responsibility of self is probably not going to go down too well in a forum populated by mainly communists those of a left persuasion. 🙂

Cougar – Moderator

<mod>
Just a gentle reminder to keep it civil

Difficult in the face of such obvious trolling, but I’ll do my best. 🙂

joemarshall – Member

Now that’s a funny one. Because whilst obviously the highway code just says to let someone know that you are there, I did meet one IAM guy who suggested that when you saw bad driving on the road, you should beep or flash your lights, to let people know that you felt their actions were discourteous or unsafe, as without this kind of feedback, people won’t realise that they are having a negative effect on people, and won’t change their driving to avoid it. So the advanced motorists don’t actually agree on that one.

Interesting conclusion from your sample of one.
The IAM does not teach the above, and my initial guess is that he wasn’t an advanced driver.

dazh – Member

You’ll have to humour me here, as I’m obviously struggling with this higher level of abstraction. So why does this means we shouldn’t have speed limits?

I didn’t ever say that.
You imply I have said something I haven’t because you cannot argue against what I have said.
Seriously, grow up or go away.

Are you now suggesting we *shouldn’t* exercise common sense and good judgement?

Show me where I’ve suggested that and I’ll buy you a pint.
When you’re old enough.

This may be a revelation to you, but the two are not mutually exclusive.

Arguing against things I haven’t said, and pretending I’ve said things to further your argument, that’s trolling, pure and simple.

dazh – Member

So now were arguing about the definition of ‘quickly’? Well I admit that driving is undeniably quicker than walking. Well done. You win.

We were always arguing about the same thing; I made a statement that you disagreed with.
You’ve now finally changed your mind and all of a sudden don’t disagree with me.
That’s nice ‘n’all, just a shame you have to be a silly billy about, pretending that you weren’t actually wrong.

dazh – Member

Well unless I’m missing some advanced driving jedi wisdom, you wait until the car indicating left initiates the manoeuvre to turn left and once you’re happy it is in fact turning left, and the rest of the traffic is clear enough for you to pull out, you do so. Is that the sort of thing they teach you on IAM courses? Think I learnt that on my first ever lesson on my 17th birthday.

Well thanks for answering someone else’s question, but you’ve just proven my point.
Although you could predict that the car was almost certainly going to turn left, you didn’t act on that prediction, and rightly so.

I take it I don’t have to explain further…

ahwiles – Member

again.

**** me.

Again, as you seem to have missed it the first time:

On a road with a 20mph speed, by what percentage decrease in accidents will a 20mph decrease in speed achieve, according to those stats? 😉

Always be wary of accepting stats at face value.

dazh – Member

Oh right, here was I thinking we were arguing about speed limits and their usefulness and instead you’re arguing about the existential nature of driving a car.

Stop pretending that you hadn’t realized you were wrong so kept quiet.

In answer:

“Driving is about getting from A to B”

FTFY.

Then why go through all the expense and hassle of getting a licence and car when you could simply walk?

Jog on.

joemarshall – Member

To be fair, the advanced drivers on here are hardly helping their cause by saying things like this:
“I’d never be able to have any fun on a deserted motorway or quiet country B road”

What is wrong with having fun on the roads?
It doesn’t have to be dangerous.
Don’t we all enjoy riding our bikes?

or by commenting on how they are very often flashed by people who consider their overtaking to be in some way dangerous, but that because they are such a jolly advanced driver, the people flashing them are clearly the ones in the wrong

I see people get flashed for overtaking perfectly safely all the time, and I’ve had it once or twicw over the years.
Tell me, what should a driver use a flash of the headlights for?
Now tell me those doing the flashing were right.

If advanced driving should teach people anything, it should be some humility, and an ability to perceive that whilst you do have greater training, you are still limited and fallible, the same as everyone else and should take this into account in your planning and anticipation whilst driving

It does.

rather than that you are a super-driving-god because you’ve got a little red badge on your windscreen.

I don’t know any advanced drivers that either think like that, or display a sticker on their vehicle.

dazh – Member

And I have suggested that where? Like I said it’s not a campaign against advanced driving courses or the people who take them.

Did I say that you, personally, had made those comments?
No I didn’t.
Stop arguing against things I haven’t said.

I’ve made my very simple position pretty clear. Not sure how you’ve missed it.

I stated that driving was about getting from A to B quickly.
You called that twisted logic.
Where is your alternative? I seem to have missed it.

And while we’re on the subject of forgetfulness, we’re still waiting on why you think creating a predictable and standardized environment on the roads is a bad idea.

See my previous post, I hadn’t forgotten, I was simply having lunch.

ahwiles – Member

unwarped logic: it’s quite a good idea if everyone tries to drive at sort of roughly the same speed. to make lane changing easier, and that sort of thing.

It’s dazh who accused me of using warped logic, and it’s his alternative I am still waiting to hear.

you said that would be ‘extremely dangerous’

I said “creating a standard and predictable environment on the roads” was an extremely dangerous path to go down, so don’t misquote me to your own ends.
Reducing difference in speed between vehicles is something that is taught, so again you are showing your ignorance of AD.

The only reason why making the roads predictable would be a good idea is if you could act on that prediction.
This may come as a surprise to you but there are vehicles on the road that can legally ignore the speed limit.
Are you suggesting that you should make decisions based on the probability that meeting such a vehicle is unlikely?

Or another example:
You are at a T junction waiting to turn right (from minor to major) and a vehicle is travelling towards you from the right indicating to turn left (back the way you came from).
When do you pull out?

Feel free to actually answer any of those questions.

edlong – Member

Can you not see the contradiction within that statement? By your own observation, you cannot know where the limits are, since they are constantly changing.

Maybe it would be safer to try not to drive anywhere near where those limits are likely to be.

Can you not see your contradiction?
I’m guessing you can, as you didn’t answer my question.

Unless you really want to, in which case, please take it to a track not the roads my kids might be cycling on.

Please point out where I have condoned driving recklessly on the road.
Or are you just using diversion because your argument doesn’t stand up?

ahwiles – Member

‘without incident’?

or ‘about 50 incidents a day – 5 of them fatal’

Yes, without incident.
In your lifetime, the chances are that you will never be involved in a serious accident.
If that wasn’t the case then none of us would use the roads.
You don’t have to take my word for it, look up KSIs per mile travelled and the proof is there for you to see.

dazh – Member

More warped logic, coming right up

Still waiting to hear your unwarped logic.
Waiting…

dazh – Member

Again, you’re completely missing the point of this debate. It’s not a campaign against advanced driving. It’s a simple rejection of the view, and the ridiculous justifications presented to defend it, that being an advanced driver means you should be able to drive faster than the speed limits.

No, you’re missing the many posts made that suggest that advanced drivers are a bunch of speed hungry boy racers.
Go back and read the thread, the posts are still there.

aracer – Member

7% according to the stats.

Less than 4%.

ahwiles – Member

hang on, are those numbers per mph reduction? – because that’s how i’m reading it – that’s massive!

**** me.

On a road with a 20mph speed, by what percentage decrease in accidents will a 20mph decrease in speed achieve, according to those stats?
😉

molgrips – Member

Regardless of safety, there’s another point.

You can’t trust people to make their own judgement about speed. That’s why we have limits.

That doesn’t remove the need for people to make their own judgement about speed, which they do all the time, without incident. 💡

dazh – Member

As I said a couple of pages back. The fact that you may be a safer/better driver at speed is irrelevant. Speed limits are not just about reducing speed and mitigating the severity of crashes, they are also about creating a standard and predictable environment on the roads which helps to prevent crashes. Do you accept this point?

That’s an extremely dangerous path to go down. Do I need to point out why or would you like to have a little think about it?

ahwiles – Member

well done you.
i’m sure you’re an excellent driver, do you mind keeping your exuberance to the track?

🙄
You really haven’t a clue what advanced driving is about, have you?
I guarantee that there will be situations (probably many) where I would be driving more slowly than you, because of my training.
Have a think about that.
Then go and check out your local IAM group.

ahwiles – Member

2000 people are killed every year by motor vehicles, the least we can do is question our national driving behaviour, which clearly sucks.

Although there is always room for improvement, we currently have some of the safest roads in the world.

ahwiles – Member

it’s a limit, not a target.

I’ve already pointed out why this is incorrect. 🙂

ahwiles – Member

we cannot let people decide their own speed limits.

It’s what every driver does, every time they drive. 😕

dazh – Member

There’s no point. These people have convinced themselves that cars are a plaything and the public roads are their race track

Advanced driving is primarily about driving safely, and reduced insurance premiums are proof that it works. I don’t treat the roads as a race track, and my 1995 Nissan Micra is not a plaything.
Do stop talking bollocks.

(they pay taxes don’t you know!)

I’m fairly sure you’re the first person to mention taxes of any kind in this thread.
Do stop talking bollocks.

and they’ve constructed an entire rationale based on warped logic to justify their actions.

You accused me of using warped logic earlier in the thread, yet you failed to point out why my viewpoint was wrong, and failed to offer an alternative viewpoint of your own.
Are you going to have the balls to do that now?
Or would you rather retract that statement and stop talking bollocks.

Personally I’d have more respect for them if they just came out and admitted that they don’t give a sh*t for anyone else and that risking death and injury to others is a price worth paying for their ‘fun’. Trouble is they won’t admit that cos they still see themselves as ‘responsible’ road users and they crave acceptance by everyone else, hence the ridiculous justifications.

Advanced drivers are safer drivers. The proof is in the reduced premiums.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Go on a commented drive with an IAM associate, then come back when you are not talking from a position of complete ignorance. 💡 🙂

edlong – Member

If you’re driving sensibly, the limit on any modern car might as well be in a different galaxy. You don’t need to worry about it unless you’re racing. If you’re driving anywhere near the limit of your car’s capabilities on a public road then you’re a danger to yourself and everyone else. Go to a track if you want to do this.

The limits of a car’s capabilities change constantly and dramatically due to changes in the road, so I’ll ask you again: how do you know where those limits are?
To be frank, you sound like exactly the sort of person who is going to get caught out.
I’ve seen a car end up on it’s roof at no more than 20mph.