Took me a second or two to work out what I was looking at in that first pic.

It has taken me considerably longer than that! I’m there now though.
Get well soon @poopscoop.

The startlist has pulled through onto the WTRL site now, so it’s easier for me to chop and change riders around on screen. Watch this space…

@drew do you have a zwiftpower profile? You are entered in the event in the app but I can’t see you on the WTRL startlist.. If not, can you get one? Instructions here: https://support.zwift.com/en_us/connecting-to-zwiftpower-SyldRc_4H

Huge congrats and thanks to @robbo1234biking for making this happen. I’ve loved every second (in one way or another), my fitness has improved at a time of year it would normally be sneaking off until Spring at least, the money has gone to a superb cause and it has all had a real community feel.

Today really did not suit me. But seeing as I was in no-mans land in the overall points competition and I had a win under my belt (after handicap) from last week, I figured I had nothing to lose. So I thought I’d try and chase another win (!). The main obstacle (there were many others, but the main one) was @tpbiker and his lightweight handicap. I’ve ridden with Tim enough to know I can’t drop him under any circumstances, yet I somehow had to put a minute into him. So I made a plan: go absolutely hell for leather right from the start, hope for some kind of very early split behind me, try and hang on with the riders up front if so, hope the gap eventually goes out to an undeserved minute. This seemed like a delightfully kamikaze plan when I made it. But it turned out to be idiocy (obviously) that I just wasn’t capable of delivering. I put my biggest ever minute in right from the start, shot off the front, nixie and phil soon came past (maybe i can stay with them, I thought, so far so good…) and then a whole blob of others came past too just as I cracked, at the very start of our first visit up the champs. I had literally nothing left, right at the start of the race, and had to watch the front group drift away up the road as I grovelled along. At least I tried.

The rest of the race I settled into group 2 (well, it was to start with, the group ahead splintered I see!) with @crazyharry, @garry_lager, @kirky72, @oblongbob and @dandasbike. We cooperated pretty well most of the time and held the group in front at about 45 secs (it went to nearly a minute and came back down). The start almost finished me. I really nearly gave up after 1 lap (“the route badge will do me”) and 20 minutes (“that’s a nice round number to stop on”) but eventually I recovered enough to feel like it was maybe manageable. I even had a moment of madness the penultimate time round l’etoile and tried to escape down the hill when I found myself initially unintentionally off the front, I even got a bit of a gap I think but @oblongbob brought me back. And I went again, this time all in but very predictably, the last time up the final ramp, but @oblongbob again paced back to me. After that, I was done. I can’t sprint when I’m fresh so I had no chance in that state.

Well done @kirky72 on a relentlessly assembled victory. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed sharing lots of those km with you. See you all in November. And in the meantime do all please contemplate joining us in the STW Team Time Trial Teams (yes, plural now!) each week – there’s a barrage of info here https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/zwift-team-time-trial-thursday/ and all are welcome. Lots of riders in common with this series, but they want to stay together rather than bury you.

yeah that’s a bit weird, not really delved into it but it’s like the current WTRL series isn’t really part of the new Zwift/WTRL series?

They are – mercifully – separate.

@haloric. sorry. just enter the event here (cat A) and join the conversation…
https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597

Didn’t scaredy get flagged B last week?

It’s complicated. Last week, the WTRL system intervened to pick him up as a B based only on that one ride, but that was because at that time ZP hadn’t allocated him a category. But now ZP has categorised him as a C (based on more than one ride) so tonight that will prevail. It won’t last though.

How about (probably with some tinkering)…

@phil56 B

@paino B

@scaredypants C almost B

@yanboss C

@zilog6128 C

@robbo1234biking C

And

@dangeourbrain B

@w00dster B

@drew ?C

@weeksy C

@retrorick C

@oopnorth C

@ljarch C

@ivandobski D almost C

Logic: phil and paino to drive one team, brian and w00dster to drive the other (more sympathetically..). yanboss gets to follow as requested, robbo and zilog
can do their usual thing. there’s plenty of experience in both teams independent of category. i don’t think i’ve contradicted anyone’s stated preferences. happy to change if so though. there’s scope to rebalance the numbers, esp if someone (of any category) wants to move across, that would speed up the faster team, but might make it slightly harder to ride with the (thereby) slower team. or it might be that one of brian and woodster is enough and there’s still space for the other to move “up” whilst keeping that team in latte.

Is it worth taking into account that the best “outcome” for the stronger team will be if the stronger team limits itself to 3xB, and so rides latte. I think we can do this whilst totally respecting weeksy and ivan’s reasonable wish to make sure that the group they ride with is not a nightmare for them to hang in with. Like phil says, Bs can be an asset to the Cs and Ds.

But I think the overall aim needs to be it works out so that everyone involved this evening wants to be involved again next week – whilst maintaining a genuine possibility of fluidity between the two teams.

This first time we go through this will be the hardest to get right I think.

Thomas has abandoned the race. Fractured Hip.

@zilog6128 your setup works. I can hear you (not now, obviously, you know what I mean).

It’s team selection time! We have 14 riders signed up. This is really quite exciting. We need to get into two teams. Max 8 riders per team. Mixed ability is better (more than 3 from your highest cat pulls you up the coffee groups, but that is not a significant issue really). And remember: holding Phil’s wheel is considerably less difficult when he wants you to (Thursdays) than when he doesn’t (Tuesdays!).

Here’s the plan: I’ll list the entries. Everyone can then talk to the group. I sense that it’s going to coalesce into two teams quite naturally. If I’m wrong, we’ll still get there eventually. I’ll formalise it in a subsequent post with the necessary start delays / zwiftpower tags / discord channels etc. once the teams are reasonably settled.

Further riders are still welcome. There are two more places. Claim one by signing up to category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597

The “squad” looks like this:

@paino B

@dangeourbrain B

@w00dster B

@phil56 B

@scaredypants C almost B

@drew ?C

@zilog6128 C

@ljarch C

@retrorick C

@yanboss C

@robbo1234biking C

@oopnorth C

@weeksy C

@ivandobski D almost C

Please form yourselves into two orderly lines. GO!

I’ll just drop this dignified random example here shall I? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr87TVOMBkg (I don’t think a cat is mandatory).

I assumed it was a cut n paste error from the more serious category at first, but they mention it multiple times. The underlying rules (assuming they mirror the existing attempts at this) are perverse as well – they include a 5% allowance which is actually massive, encourages cheating if anything.

It would be great if we could get involved in that race series. And I suspect there will in reality be much less naked home videoing involved than those rules suggest. But I can really see why the hassle (overall, not just that) is an obstacle at the moment for @dangeourbrain.

Is a “noise bleed” the sound you sometimes make over discord during the TTT Brian? I’ll post about that next. Back on topic etc.

Don’t worry I’ve been sorting discord channels today.

Not for zwift itself. Once it plays properly, it plays properly. You can pay more (and more, and more) for better graphics if you like. I don’t think it’s worth it but you might.

The streaming is really the requirement that sets you apart. It might be worth it for that. Have a look at https://blog.zwiftalizer.com/post/buyersguide-2019/ maybe?

The C4 Spacetourer does look nice

He didn’t mean that C4 one, he meant the actual spacetourer (also available via toyota, peugeot and now vauxhall). Citroen apparently have quite a limited vocabulary. It’s the car version of their slightly bigger van.

Executive decision (which, ridiculously, I have thought through):

Everyone can be a bumblebee.

Here’s what I’m planning:

– give it until tomorrow, and then post a consolidated list of all our signed up riders to prompt a chat about how to dice them up into two teams.
– then post provisional (but unlikely to change) team tags for zwiftpower on Weds…
.. and confirm them alongside start delays and discord channels for each team on Thurs AM.

There are still two places available. Sign up to category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597?__znl=en-gb

My wife just got one (G2P which I think, looking at geo chart, is that frame in a different colour built with tiagra). Sizing is more normal now than last year’s model, so you can safely ignore old chatter about sizing weirdness (and it really was weird).

Absence of reach and stack info led me to phone them. I still don’t know that info. But they were very helpful on the phone, advice (they recommended a 50 for 168cm tall) was spot on now it has arrived.

(edited to add height)

Interesting results! Nice rides there. I find those Herd league events a bit baffling. But I’ve ridden enough of them to know that they are really tough.

Congrats on the win @kirky72. You aren’t staying in C much longer eh? My own move from C to B coincided with me riding these as a C. I’d stay in the front group but never got anywhere near winning one. Were you riding for points? Or was it a side-product of just racing?

Somewhere, @phil56 is figuring out which of the ingredients which contributed to him putting 5m30 between him and @j-r can be recreated in the STW format next week.

This is amazing. There is no-one else even signed up in that category yet, just a list of 12 STW riders.

Still 4 more places available. Join category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597?__znl=en-gb

It would be unusual if that were really an option. Normally, when you see the 4 yr option it refers to how long until you “take ownership” of the bike, but not how long you pay for. That would still be 12 (sometimes 18) months.

It’s all a merry go round really, because it all turns on the fiction that you “rent” the bike for an amount which in total coincidentally matches precisely with the retail cost, and then you scramble to keep it at the lowest further cost and the employer gets rid with minimal hassle of a bike it owns but never wanted.

So you pay your 12 monthly rental payments, then you either take ownership immediately (with the tax ramifications of your employer gifting you a 12 month old bike) or pay a very small “long term rental fee” and delay taking ownership until 3 years later (with the much more palatable tax ramifications of your employer gifting you a 4 yr old used bike).

I suppose your employer going bankrupt while they still own the bike is more likely with three added years. That’s the only risk I can see, and it’s pretty small that (a) it would happen and (b) anyone would chase that particular asset.

Other might see other drawbacks.

Yes, it’s a real thing. Classic tiny weeny risk of horrendous ruinous outcome. Just buy the insurance.

Folding rack thing, one slice at a time. Cheap dedicated one (check amazon or ebay), Ridgemonkey for making other stuff too, fake ridgemonkey is reasonable compromise. I like the cheap option.

I’ve entered a second team in the same pen.

A consensus emerged fast. The most boring debate ever has been avoided.

EVERYONE interested, enter category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597

We’ll deal with the finer details of who rides in which team nearer the time: decide on here, officialise by zwiftpower tagging…

@kelvinshuffle thank you. I’d rather avoid Google sheet etc if there’s a simpler way that’ll work. I think two teams is simple enough. The pressure is more towards a latte and a frappe, maybe even a mocha rather than towards espresso. Keep your eye on it though?

not actually done any non-STW races for weeks

I said to robbo yesterday that some of now have “shadow” power profiles from his race series different to our zp numbers. Suppose you do the TTT, and the Tuesday night race, there’s not necessarily oodles of extra time for normal zwift races left…

Possibly cost me a few watts but if it makes for a better workout then all good.

The question, then, is if we do a race (wholly hypothetically) where I somehow have to get a minute clear of you, will you be using the rocker or not? I really think you should. More seriously – what did you get? Branded extravagance, DIY thing, somewhere in between?

@weeksy have you thought about risking managing your effort via the HRM less? Ride without it (or without pairing it to zwift, so you can’t see it during the race).

My problem (on the kind of course I enjoy, especially since I became a B) is staying with the lead group until the race gets interesting. So on, say this race last week which had 35km flat lead in to a climbing finish (https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1080840) I lost the lead group after 10km. After that it was a mix of lonely TT, shifting small groups, other cats coming through the field etc. Maddeningly, lots of riders quit the event ahead of me when they got dropped too. Admittedly that’s a stupidly long lead in (what was I thinking?) but a typical outcome for me on shorter course too. I’d like to get to the decisive climb on courses like that in a bigger group, but I am not (yet) managing it.

I’ve realised though that I’m managing the effort wrong. I get dropped partly because I’m trying to sustain a level which still leaves something in the tank for the finale. But actually I need to get as far as I can – even if it means I crack – with the lead group, sod the finale. Once I manage to get there, I can worry about that! I think – esp recently – you are riding in the same fashion and managing your effort to avoid cracking. My climb is like your final lap. But what’s the downside of risking it? Neither of us are getting as far as we’d like because we’re focussing on what happens immediately next. We get dropped not because we can’t hold the wheels, but because we judge (for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly) that we can’t sustainably hold the wheels.

I’m going to try one of the Box Hill Races at lunchtime (either the 3R one or the Chinese one with fewer riders but a shorter lead in) and set out only to stay with the lead pack as long as I can – even if it means sprinting well into the red at times – and stop saving anything at all for what comes next. It’s not a failure if I don’t PB the climb segment because I get there knackered, and I’m going to stop riding like it is.

Let’s see if there’s enough interest to get a second team going, maybe just once, maybe all winter. Who knows?

I’ve tagged this post (below) with my best effort at a big online stalker list to summon everyone who might be interested to this thread – if I’ve missed people, point them this way!

It isn’t necessarily administratively simple. I have no idea how the “clubs” who put out multiple teams manage to administer it. @kelvinshuffle, @mrhoppy and others involved with those setups might know. I’ll just follow the consensus on here.

Here are some possibilities. I don’t want to just impose one. But I don’t want to prompt the most boring debate in the history of the forum either. Best to just alight on one soonish and then see how it goes:

Option 1 – enter two teams in the same time slot and category. So just one entry link, and we can allocate between the two here on the forum and then by simply updating name tags on zwiftpower in time for the start

Option 2 – enter two teams in different time slots, and have two entry links. either decide actively here on the forum how to divide riders between the teams (i.e. organise it) or just let people choose freely according to availability (i.e. leave rider distribution to chance).

Option 3 – organise everything initially on the forum, and deal with entry and tags last once things are decided. (I think this option would be a time consuming car crash, fwiw!).

Option 4 (hanging over it all) – there’ll soon be a fortnightly TTT on Tuesdays as part of the new Zwift Racing League. Someone will surely crack soon and volunteer to organise STW involvement in that, so things might get more complex re TTTs at least every other week. But it could be a way to ease into two teams.

Anyway, speak up if you want to get involved in a two team setup.

Here (based on people who have ridden previously, have admitted to being interested but not yet taken part, or already ride elsewhere but might be tempted to change loyalty) is that list:

@kelvinshuffle, @garry_lager, @weeksy, @trail_rat, @mooman, @phil56, @ivandobski, @ljarch, @dangeourbrain, @dknwhy, @zilog6128, @tiger6791, @piemonster, @robbo1234biking, @twisty, @eat_more_cheese, @haloric, @mrhoppy, @kirky72, @tpbiker, @retrorick, @yanboss, @scaredypants, @poopscoop, @oopnorth, @nixie, @tomlevell, @prawny, @peesbee

I’ve put one (for now) entry in for next week.

Thursday 7:40pm, 2x Sand & Sequoias (42km)
Enter category A here : https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597

I’ll do a separate post in a sec picking up on @robbo1234biking’s idea of beating a drum to see if we can tempt enough riders to form two teams.

Here are everyone’s numbers:

Robbo’s at the bottom, everyone else finished together.
Remember – that was an exceptionally fast ride (for our team) and a powerful group and the strategy of trying to stick together means you don’t be able to keep up with that to keep up.

Aargh, you lot were sat in the final qualifying slot for the platinum league (with two time zones left to race)…
…and then the results computer decided to count @scaredypants (unclassified at the start) as a B after all which boosted you up into frappe.
Great ride though. I watched some of it as a dotrace with stats on zwiftpower live.

OK, I’ve looked properly. I take what you guys are saying seriously (I’ve not been in the position where I need to take responsibility to put serious time into anyone else at any point, so who am I to disagree!) but I’m reasonably sure that barring mechanical misfortune an A rider will win the final round. This is going to be a really tight battle for the overall as well.

Bold prediction @weeksy !
I scored 0 points in rgv week. And to win this week I’d actually have to beat riders who previously I’ve “only” needed to follow. I’ll try and prove you right though.

Fwiw, I think a winner after handicap from amongst the strongest riders is more likely than @dangeourbrain and @phil56 do. The RGV race and the Road to Ruins both had gaps which could have got big enough with a little more time…

Can I heckle you on Discord if I’m not riding…I can be the Director Sportif 😉

You may jest, but the official rules of the premier league event actually make provision for this! In that zone, teams are allowed one extra rider to act as DS, who must not leave the start pen but can join the event to set up a video stream or stalk his riders in fan view etc.

New FTP this week for me @robbo1234biking, 274 please.

robbo beat me to it by 20 seconds.

We’ve only failed to field a team once since the beginning, and it does seem like interest has never been higher. So perhaps I should worry a bit less about fragmentation.

OK details for tonight…

Start delay is 4 minutes. So in the pen by 19:40, and someone (probably Phil) will shout “GO GO GO” at 19:44:00

The start list looks like this at the moment:

@dangeourbrain

@phil56

@yanboss

@zilog6128

@haloric

@robbo1234biking

@scaredypants

Everyone there is tagged OK etc. If you should be there and you’re not, check your tag and that you’ve entered the right time (19:40).

Otherwise, that’s 7 on the start line which means one more place available. https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1092711 @woodster and @oopnorth are going to play “after you”…”no, after you” with it aren’t you?

I think everyone on that list has access to the discord server. If not, click here:
https://discord.gg/HWhsrR

That’s all. Looks like @robbo1234biking got the big group he wished for last week – which will be brilliant especially on this course. I’m gutted I can’t join you.

See each other in the pen…

I really think it would be a shame if we went down the path of splitting into different teams based on ability/level. If you are tempted to ride with a “B-team”, please reconsider riding (en masse, all of you!) with the existing team.

The whole event is designed to accommodate mixed ability teams. It really does work so that the “weaker” riders are as much a part of it as the “stronger” ones. And this is true even with quite a spread of ability. The basic format of Max 3 riders from your top category, and up to 5 weaker riders is perfect for a group like us, even more so if – as @weeksy thinks might be the case – there are more riders at the “weaker” end available to make the group bigger.

You don’t need to push anything like the watts that the stronger riders push in order to be a real part of the team and get to the finish line. The draft effect is dramatic. Some recent examples:

Here https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=991230 Our average w/kg finishing together after 37 minutes were 3.7 – 3.3 – 3.3 – 3.0 – 2.9

Or here https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1003086 ave w/kg for a blob finishing together in 1:07 were 3.4 – 3.3 – 3.2 – 3.1 and 2.5

If you are in the middle there, you can definitely keep up. But there is space to extend that spread further still.

There is acquired skill involved – e.g. @Phil56 and @dangeourbrain do need to judge what the blob as a whole can sustain, and that 2.5w/kg ride in my second link was @zilog6128 who is really, really good at staying with a fast group (partly because of the practice he gets in the TTT?). Looking at that data, his ride would surely have been easier that day if an additional rider had done, say, 2.8 w/kg. That’s an example of where the existing team can be buttressed by riders who are hesitant to join because they see themselves as “too weak”. And the spread can continue downwards in w/kg whilst making us faster as well. Sure it is hard – when we get it right, the front go hard and the back, pushing much lower watts, have to go hard to stay with them.

We have tried to cultivate an approach to it which maximises the mixed ability aspects of the format. Some teams sacrifice their weaker riders by dropping them deliberately over the course of the race. We take more satisfaction from trying to get there together. It doesn’t always work – people do get dropped, but never (unless they insist) without an effort to get them back and sometimes we struggle, but often that’s because of the challenge of the event rather than the ability spread.

This is what I meant when I said we’re doing it wrong if there’s a move towards fielding a weaker team. There’s basically no such thing as not being at the sufficient level. With a group of 8 and some practice we could get a really massive w/kg spread around a flat course (4 w/kg – 2w/kg at least, I think) in a decent time. If you aren’t joining in because you are worried about keeping up, please just dive in. If you get dropped, don’t be shy about being rescued and then hanging on in there. And if you feel like you tried and it was honestly too hard say so and the format of the event really does mean, if we handle it well, that you can get to the finish without anyone getting any less of a workout overall.

@oopnorth said

I’m not sure I have the sustained power for that, I could potentially be a hindrance!

You absolutely have the power. And you’d be an asset not a hindrance!

It’s not an elite event. It’s meant for normal people, especially how we approach it. Phil and Brian (who most often play the role) do a really great job of pacing it. Yes it’s hard, but honestly, if you or people like you (or @weeksy, who has fallen out of love with it a bit?) find it too much we’re doing it wrong. We aim to finish together, we usually manage and the category we race in assumes a mix of C and B cat riders.

If family commitments do permit, give it a try.

@retrorick said

So if I change a setting on my trainer it’ll make the hills and races easier

No – well, only in the same way that putting a bigger cassette or a smaller chainring on your bike would do. Think of it kind of like a virtual change to your gearing. The hill stays the same, the power requirements to get up it stay the same. (the setting is in zwift, not the trainer)

Wow. I don’t really win things.

That was very, very hard. I didn’t belong in the front group and it was painful to stay there. I know the course pretty well and I tried to make that work for me. The rest of the group seemed to settle down once we got onto the reverse lap, which gave me a chance. I tried to surge onto every hill and hope I could latch on as they came back past me. It generally worked, although I was basically dropped twice – but each time @tpbiker was also distanced and as he clawed his way back on I managed to go with him. Thanks for those rescues. I would have gone backwards fast if dropped. I could see in the sidebar that @kirky72 was working well with @DrP so I really had no choice but to hang on to maintain my handicap advantage over him.

I love that course (forwards especially, but the race is normally established by the reverse lap which settles it down) and I do tend to get my best performances on it. Paris is not really my scene!