I’m not promoting anything. I’m simply stating that revolutions happen for a reason. To write them off as adolescent is quite frankly pathetic. I’ve also not claimed that every one has been good. Of course there is loss of life and property. Do you think that all revolutions throughout history have been wrong, that none have resulted in positive changes? If so then you’re a **** idiot.

Sure but we don’t live in a dictatorship or absolute monarchy. We can make piecemeal changes thanks to living in a democracy. It’s not perfect but it is amenable to change and should not be condemned as irredeemable.

I just wish he’d answer my questions on why revolutions are adolescent and irresponsible and how a westerner can’t understand them.

Have you ever experienced a revolution? They don’t always go to better places and often result in significant loss of life and property, especially when those demanding revolution don’t have any plan for what they want beyond vague goals such as ‘justice’ or ‘equality’.

If you have never experienced a total breakdown in law and order you don’t have any business promoting it from your sofa. The law is a precious thing, without it, there is a Hobbesian world which is an ugly place.

For the record, I’ve think the death of George Floyd looks like murder and the officers should be prosecuted, and I’ve already acknowledged that the US has a problem with police violence and racism.

Do you agree that if the people tasked with the duty of upholding the law are broken, then equally the citizenry cannot be held to higher standard should they choose to protest?

Broken as in completely broken?

Plus as before, so what about a bit of looting? most stores can be robbed at anytime, can get burnt to the ground at any time, can be looted. It’s a risk you take, and giant corps like Target will be up and running in no time again. Against a protest about police murdering with impunity, it’s nothing.

Because people die in riots and looting. Several have died already. And if mass theft and destruction is to be tolerated then why would people bother to buy anything again when they can just take it? Why would anyone invest in a shop? The state has a duty to protect life and property within reason.

I’m not denying that the protests were legitimate but there was also a great deal of looting and violence associated with said protests. Something like 200 Target stores are consequentially closed and where are the local people going to buy their groceries from now? Images of police in riot gear need to be seen in that context.

The only research I have seen on hi viz showed no difference. Indeed it can make things worse by drivers assuming the rider is a roadside worker

Beware of unintended secondary effects

You could be right but otoh I’d rather adopt a precautionary principle based on a balance of probability.

If hi-vis is useless then perhaps I should wear a camouflage suit? :D

People always find slivers of sceptical arguments to resit the adopting of new safety measures and technology. In the 70’s and 80’s many said seatbelts were dangerous because they would rather be ‘thrown clear’ in the event of a crash. :D

Rydster, have you forgotten about the windrush scandal? That’s one reason why people are protesting the government, the bill boards on vans telling foreigners to go home is another. Constant (brexit fuelled) us and them comments from the government is another.
Your either very ignorant, or a troll.

The Windrush scandal concerned about 200 individuals who were dealt with insensitively by immigration. Not having been naturalised they strickly speaking fell foul of immigration laws but most people would agree that the application of these laws was unreasonable in their case. Do I agree that border control is racist in essence? Of course not.

One good reason to wear a hi-vis and helmet IMHO is that in court it lends you credibility as a responsible cyclist and ipso facto that driver who hit and injured you was to blame.

What’s wrong with hi-vis and helmets?

I wear them w/out hesitation now but then I’m not some ‘cool dude’ obsessed with having my campagnolo socks match the colour of my bar tape :D

People are asking (or demanding) equality, this has been obvious since the emancipation of the slaves, that’s an interesting turn of phrase you’ve used, what d’you mean; suspicious?

That just begs another question; what does the equality you demand actually look like?

Equality like justice doesn’t self-define.

A qualified or specified equality like equal voting rights, for example, is different. That can be formalised.

I’ve agreed several times that the US police too easily resorts to violence and that black men disproportionately suffer. It seems there is scope for SMART demands here and changes for the better. OTOH when it comes to the UK, and especially the talk of ending some sort of generalised racism called ‘systemic racism’ the ground beneath the feet isn’t so solid. I’m just very suspicious of people asking for some generalised and nebulous change which they can barely articulate. Piecemeal and measurable/achievable demands I commend.

Two cyclists have died on my local roads in the last few weeks.

One of these on a national speed limit lane that I try and avoid. It’s a very busy route which is narrow in places with blind corners and junctions.

I really don’t feel safe on UK roads these days so I try and avoid them, stick to TPT, canals and occasional MTB. In my teens and 20’s I was ‘macho’ and probably felt a somewhat invulnerable. Now being a bit older I don’t feel so brave. There are a lot of bad drivers about and UK roads are very busy and often narrow. It’s a bad combination for cyclists plus the creeping ‘racism’ against cyclists makes us an easy target.

it is the attitude of the general population that needs to change.

So why protest to the government then?

I’m just trying to interrogate what they want is all I’m doing.

Equality.

This is obvious, surely?

And what is that?

So what is the demand?

Institutional racism isn’t defeated by law or policies, it’s defeated by education and acceptance.

Is it? The Stephen Lawrence inquiry made recommendations of which 67 led to specific changes in the practice of the law.

Certainly, the US has obvious problems with policing but I’m speaking about the UK specifically. Like I said, many say they want systemic racism dismantled but they can’t really say what that is or what it being dismantled looks like. How will we know what it’s been achieved?

Fair and just ones applied fairly. To much to ask? Laws and ploicies that make the police accountable for their actions would be a good start, and laws to limit what action they are allowed to take to arrest supects.

You still aren’t answering the question. Tell me what specific laws and policies you want.

This lack of clarity is emblematic of the whole protest especially in the UK where a tiny number per year die in police custody or otherwise at hands of police.

Stop and search and prison population figures would disagree with you.

So what laws and policies do you want?

That is one particular instance of institutional racism which took a great deal of time and effort to unpack. In contrast, the protestors want some general and systemic racism dismantling but can’t say what that actually looks like.

It’s about the systematic in built racsim

That is such a general and arguably slippery concept that it’s very hard for the gov to know what it actually needs to deliver in terms of new laws and making policies.

I’ve heard many people speaking about systemic racism recently but I feel hardly any of them could speak eloquently about what it is.

My response is neither of them.

The US can definitely do more to reduce the number of deaths at the hands of police but it can never eliminate this from happening.

Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason. It’s potentially much more consequential to life and property than the death of one person. The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake. All successful societies have treated rioting and mass unrest in the same way. A Hobbesian world is an ugly one, much more ugly even than an overzealous police. Just looks at what happened in Iraq and Libya for example recently.

Cycle racing has turned from a working class sport to something else in the UK, but we are still not as quick as the guys abroad.

Many say it’s become like the new golf attracting >35 year old middle-class men inspired by the asthmatic Sir Bradley “never used a needle” Wiggins.

In that sense, they all like to fawn over the kit turning cycling into part sporting activity part act of consumerism.

I’m no innocent myself, and back in the mid to late 00’s – when I was earning a lot of money -certainly spent more on bikes that I should have (although not to bonkers levels). I’ve definitely learned my lesson from that and pay only a modicum of attention to the gear now. I don’t need XTR or exotic carbon frames or Hope stuff to have fun; whether my stem weighs 90 g or 100 g makes virtually no difference to anything really. I feel lucky to be riding as it is after stopping for 7 years due to back problems which I thought had ended my cycling. Having said that I would never ride a Boardman :D.

For some historical context into the anger that festers in American Black communities, if anyone here hasn’t watched it the HBO series Watchmen is worth checking out, if only for the opening episode. What that showed wasn’t fiction, it was an example of the extreme racism that America is capable of, and which most Americans don’t know about because it’s been buried, I’d never heard of it, I thought it was made up for the story, but it’s fact. Tulsa 1921, look it up, it could happen again.

That’s not in living memory for almost anyone alive today. How that justifies looting consumer goods from stores is a mystery.

Van drivers seem some of the worst on the roads, although to be fair they are often working and rushing around stressed/on the clock, this combined with the intrinsic stress of driving turns them into powderkegs and bastions of bad driving.

Disposable BBQ’s piss me off. Utterly chavvy devices which litter beauty spots and cause numerous fires.

3) Bob – has an Orange 5. 26er.

Should ride a 29er. 3″ more social distance.

Here are some consequences of maliciously undermining police authority:

link

Police heard comments such as ‘you are not letting him breathe’ and ‘I saw officers stamp on his neck’ – even when ‘the detained male was sat up on the ground’.

The ‘protest’ in London doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Domestic politics in the US and especially the legacies of slavery there aren’t our business, and you have a weak case when your version of Rodney King or George Floyd is Mark Duggan who was an armed criminal.

Fine, but if you are going to break it then own and take responsibility for what comes after.

Thankfully most have moved on from 6th form/student union politics type outlook.

Unlike most people I’ve actually been in a country as it’s government collapsed and realise the seriousness of a total breakdown in law and order. It’s not something to treat lightly.

People are looting because they live in a system which is based on consumerism and material wealth, but doesn’t provide everyone with the basic means to live.

By that logic the riots we had in England in 2011 were justified and we should have been cheering on the hooded youths as they stole expensive trainers.

Imagine you live in a society where at any point you go outside, you might be targeted for murdered by the Police in broad daylight, with total impunity and with the consent of their colleagues merely because of the colour of your skin

There are certainly problems but that is sheer demagoguery and I would suggest the kind of ‘narrative’ which helps nobody. You make it sound like the police are death squads. The stats show that the police sometimes kill members of all races.

That some shops/stores have been broken into and looted is pretty bloody irrelevant next to the ongoing socico-economic issues of the protesters

Protesters like George Clooney and Ben Affleck.

If your store was being looted would you feel so blase about it?

Out of interest how should the state deal with mass looting?

I know it’s only Wiki but…

“A 2015 study found that unarmed blacks were 3.49 times more likely to be shot by police than were unarmed whites.”

I said the police kill more white men which they do. This is compatible with black men being more likely to be killed.

but when you add the fact that the police would only ever do this to a black man it makes it much, much worse.

That just isn’t true though. The police kill more white men each year than black men.

One thing I don’t like about this whole BLM ‘inspired’ protest is the willingness to cherry-pick and try and sell some general conclusion based upon particulars cases. It’s a bit like the Trayvon Martin case. They tried to turn it into something the evidence didn’t support.

I’m not denying that the US police are too willing to use force or that this disproportionately affects black men though. The causes are manifold, however, and it’s rather simplistic to blame ‘racism’ – especially ‘racist cops’ – when the stats show that black officers are just as likely to kill black men.

There is clearly an overriding issue with racism and brutality towards black people in some police forces in the US.

No doubt, but if the purpose of taking a knee is to express a sentiment then fine, but as a demand it isn’t very clear. I’ve always found that if you want something from someone it helps to clearly state what that something is.

The problem is even in a non-racist society it would still be possible for a black person to die at the hands of police. It can surely not be a demand for another black person never to die again. It’s no more realistic than the hope of eliminating any other sort of crime.

That’s because taking a knee isn’t a formal demand. It’s hard to complain that something isn’t being done when you don’t articulate what that something has to be or has to achieve.