Thanks both, yes I get the theoretical advantages of buying stuff with your pre-tax income, I’m just wondering how that actually works in practice.

If I’ve done my maths right the Brabus will actually cost you (after tax) around £8k over the three years. So what would it then cost to keep the car? Also, are there any limits on how far you can drive it in those three years? I typically do around 20k per year.

Without wishing to probe too deeply into anybody else’s finances, I’m also interested in how these salary sacrifice schemes work out overall.

I’m a simple fellow and have always just bought whatever I can comfortably afford with what I have in the bank. Originally that was old bangers, more recently it’s been new cars, but always with an eye on the total cost and what else I could do with that money.

In principle a salary sacrifice scheme sounds like a great deal. Buy a car with your pre-tax salary. Sounds great. But when I try to look a bit closer it seems that you are not buying the whole car with you pre-tax salary at all as there is usually a deposit and a final lump sum to pay in order to actually own the car. So really you’re just getting a discount on the depreciation, which for EVs is still pretty steep.

Take the Smart # 1 Brabus mentioned above. You can pick up a one year old model with around 10k on the clock for around £27k. What would the total price of buying one outright on a salary sacrifice scheme be?

Thanks both,

Yes, I looked at the Brabus but all it seems to offer is a bit less range and some bonkers acceleration. The latter sounds like fun but I know that in practice that would just get me into trouble and the standard model is no slouch. Maybe it would cope better with an Aberdeenshire winter (maybe) but the Premium is a chunk cheaper and I suspect the extra range may prove more useful than the extra motor. I’m with your wife though @deadlydarcy I’m not sure about the white interior either :) A bit first generation ipod for me.

I’ll be interested to hear what you think of the Smart #1 @shinton as it’s still on my list of possible options for the next car. Mind you I’ve been looking at EVs for months and still keep oscillating between various interesting newer models, “just get a Tesla as at least they bloody work” and “just keep my current 140k mile ICE car running a bit longer and see what happens”, with the last option currently in pole position.

Lots of cars look interesting on paper and get glowing reviews, but then when you check the owner’s forums they start to look like a nightmare. Obviously people tend to report the problems and happy drivers don’t tend to post, but the EX30, for example seems to have truly awful software and the Smart is not without its issues. Most outrageous one I’ve seen so far is an owner claiming that they can’t get a cracked windscreen fixed as Autoglass won’t touch it because the glass roof needs to be removed to replace the windscreen and even the local dealer won’t do that. Can’t believe that’s really true to be honest. Would any manufacturer really be allowed to release a car where you couldn’t replace the windscreen?

Kind of like a 2021 or later Tesla model 3.

Bear in mind that it is insurance group 50. I was contemplating one too but the increased insurance costs could easily wipe out the other savings if you are not careful.

It’s a problem with most twin-motor EVs though. I’m in a similar position. Maybe not quite as much snow in Aberdeenshire these days, but I’ve always bough AWD cars and still find them useful in winter. But a twin-motor EV always seems to mean bonkers acceleration and therefore high insurance costs. It also adds weight and reduces range (all else being equal).

A few people earlier in the thread (almost) had me convinced that modern cars (with all the traction control) combined with modern winter tyres mean that AWD isn’t as important as it used to be

If you are looking at the Tesla and don’t fancy the sedan then the Volvo EX30 might be worth a look. Similar single screen setup in a hatchback and you can have it with one motor or two. The Smart # 1 is on the same platform but quite a different car. I prefer it, but then I’m weird.

I think the answer to that question is usually a Kia niro or older Hyundai ioniq. Depends a bit on what size you need. For example you can pick up a Zoe with decent range and CCS charging fairly cheaply these days.

The challenge for EVs more generally though is that they are competing with ICE cars and most people don’t buy ICE cars based on what they actually need. If they did the roads wouldn’t be full of SUVs.

At the risk of being an echo chamber – how are these large numbers of potential owners put off?

I’ve been meaning to respond to this for a while. Strap in, it could be a long one :)  I’ve been doing a bit of EV research recently. Basically questioning everything, as is my wont and I’ve come to a few conclusions.

First, it is quite hard for any normal person to get an accurate picture of EVs. Basically everyone seems to have an agenda and the algorithms on places like YouTube favour those who shout the loudest. There are some thoughtful discussions of the issues, but they tend to get buried in all the noise.

I think ICE cars may end up being a bit like smoking. Bear with me here. When I was growing up in the 80s, in a family of five, by the time we all reached 16 it was only me and the dog that didn’t smoke and I wasn’t too sure about the dog. To be honest, the only reason I didn’t smoke was because I’d been asthmatic as a kid and my lungs objected every time I tried to look cool. Basically almost everyone smoked, just like almost everyone drives an ICE car. There is/was a well funded oil/tobacco lobby trying to keep things that way. there are/were a few environmental or heath nuts bucking the trend, but they are/were a small minority and easy to ignore. But they are/were growing and government agencies have good reason to encourage that growth.  At some point a tipping point is reached.  I expect that in the end the minority of ICE drivers will also be portrayed as selfish people polluting the air of others. I’m just not sure when that will be.

But back to now and what is putting off potential buyers. It’s important to recognise that there are various different types of car buyer and not all are put off.

Those getting company cars or buying through a salary sacrifice are being given some big tax incentives to buy an EV, which is basically what is keeping the prices of new EVs up and funding the transition.

Those who lease cars for a couple of years may be happy enough to give one a go as they know they will hand it back soon.

The tougher nut to crack is those who tend to buy cars outright (new or second hand) and keep them until they need replacing. Some of those will be convinced by the environmental arguments and will be happy to buy and just accept the costs, but most want to know what the true “costs” (in the broadest sense) will be and that’s where it can be hard to get an accurate picture with all the noise.

Some common concerns that stop these people going electric are:

Long journeys will be a pain: This is becoming less of an issue all the time as range creeps up and more chargers are installed. But it’s still the case that a long journey will probably take longer overall in an EV and may involve more hassle at busy times. There is also the fear that a car bought now will look pretty outdated in a few years when a 500 mile range may be normal. Personally I’m not sure that will be the case and I expect that we’re more likely to see cheaper 300 mile range cars than 500 mile ones, but it’s a common fear that puts people off buying an EV.

The car will be scrap in five years: Almost certainly rubbish, but a common claim. A car with, say, a 60 kwh battery is still going to have a battery around 50 kwh in probably ten let alone five years. Battery prices will come down but that’s still going to have value. Electric motors also last ages. So, I expect that a ten year old EV will actually be worth more than a ten year old ICE car in 2034.

They are more expensive: True for brand new cars but we’ve almost reached price parity (like for like) on 1-2 year old cars of the same type.

Very expensive to insure. That can be an issue if you are not careful. A Model 3 long range (for example) is insurance group 50. With insurance prices increasing the way they are, you could easily see the extra insurance costs wiping out any savings you make in fuel costs if you don’t do big miles. But a Model 3 LR is a two-ton car that does 0-62 in 4.4s. Of course it is going to be expensive to insure. The problem is that it’s easy to give an EV more power and power sells, particularly to the type of people who are buying new EVs (company car drivers). Even a middle of the road EV has hot-hatch acceleration these days and that is going to make insurance more expensive.

Sorry @uponthedowns I meant to type “so you don’t need to pay for a subscription” but the don’t got lost somewhere ? Thanks for clarifying though.

Thanks @uponthedowns So you need to pay for a subscription to use the chargers, it just might be cheaper to do so if you use them a lot. Sounds fair enough.

Two things you often hear are: “we need lots more rapid chargers” and “we need cars with 500 mile range”. But these statements are in conflict. If you were a business would you really invest millions of pounds installing lots of rapid chargers if you thought people were going to be driving cars with a 500 mile range that they charge almost exclusively at home?

I understand that Tesla have opened up the supercharger network to non-Teslas but am I right in thinking that you can only use it if you pay a monthly subscription and you can’t just turn up in your non-Tesla and get some electrons?

The more I look into the whole EV ownership thing the more I think that, if you want a relatively hassle free experience and travel away from home, just get a bloody Tesla.

More chargers, more reliable, no apps or cards (just plug it in and walk away). They are even cheaper than many of the alternatives.

Maybe wait to see if this one comes down in price a bit over the next month.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202408203087188?sort=price-asc&advertising-location=at_cars&aggregatedTrim=Sport&fuel-type=Petrol&make=Suzuki&model=Swift&postcode=AB51%205AA&year-from=2017&year-to=2019&fromsra

Suzuki Swift Sport from around 2018 (before they became hybrids). The 1.4l turbo engine is bombproof and in a car that weighs less than a ton is just bonkers fun without having license losing levels of power.

Not got an EV but am toying with the idea, so doing a bit of research. One thing I hear a lot is that the public charging infrastructure isn’t there yet, making longer trips a nightmare. But I wonder whether there is really much evidence for this claim.

Yesterday I had to pick up my son just outside Aberdeen at rush hour. I had some time to kill so went to a location where there are two sets of high speed (350kw) chargers. Each location has 12 chargers but in the 30 minutes I was there no more than two were being used at any one time (so at least 20 free). Interestingly Zapmap always said that only one was in use, so that’s obviously not perfect.

Ok, Aberdeen is a bit far from civilisation, so I had a look on Zapmap just now to see what a drive to Norwich might be like. A few specific sites look busier than the others, but none seem to be full and there are loads of options for >100kw chargers on the route. Probably a different story on the Friday/Saturday before a summer holiday, but travelling then is a nightmare whatever type of car you are in.

Can’t really help with the specific question (I are a physicist, so don’t do proper maths) but I can sympathise with the OP. My daughter has also just graduated with a First (in her case Natural Sciences – basically Biology and Chemistry – at Durham) and is now back home trying to work out what she wants to do next. I blame the parents :)

Most patients view all doctors (except those who are obviously private) as working for the same NHS. It’s going to come as a bit of a shock to them when they learn that they are actually two warring tribes who hate each other :)

Would anyone care to guess when we’ll hit the bottom of the used EV price curve?

I had a quick play with the Chrome extension that shows the price history on Autotrader. Had a look at Smart # 1 for example. Some cars have been on sale since Jan/Feb (so demand isn’t high) and the price has dropped £5-6k in that time. Similar story with a Cupra Born. There is one that was originally listed in February for £9.5k more than they are currently asking. OK there is always an element of dealers listing cars at optimistic prices and then dropping them after a bit but even just looking at the original price that similar cars were listed at seems to suggest that prices have dropped over 10% in the past six months.  Makes me think I should probably wait (at least) another six months. Especially as nobody (else) buys cars in January :)

If you build up (very!) slowly then you’ll likely find that running will work for you. If you’re already cardio fit due to cycling then DO NOT be tempted to be running at “out of breath” speed for very long.

Definitely this. Despite not having done any running for over thirty years I entered the Lakeland 50 (a 50-mile trail ultra-marathon). I figured that I was probably fit enough from years of cycling to be able to manage it. After all I had nearly a whole year to train :) Well the event itself was fine. The cut-offs are generous enough on that one that you can walk most of it anyway. But the training basically consisted of going too hard then having to take weeks off while whatever injury I’d picked up calmed down enough to allow me to run and then repeat. Spent nearly a month walking with a stick after I tore a tendon on a “training run” and didn’t really have any pain free runs the whole year. Would probably have got much more useful training done if I’d just taken it a bit slower but my heart/lungs kept writing cheques my muscles, tendons etc couldn’t cash.

Having said that, now I’ve calmed down a bit I do find that trail running gives me many of the positives that I used to get from mountain biking (being out in the hills and making decent progress) with a lower risk of injury. I can also get to lots of interesting places that I couldn’t get to on a bike. In fact I’ve not actually ridden my MTB for over a year now.  It was the rise of eMTBs that was the final straw for me, but I guess I’d been getting increasingly disillusioned with mountain biking for a while really.

Hike vs run is a bit of a spectrum though. Some hikers travel pretty fast and light anyway and even pretty fast trail runners don’t usually run the uphill bits.

If you look on ev-database.com they give “real world” ranges for various EVs but also ranges in different scenarios such as highway summer, which is 70mph in warm conditions. Bear in mind that you will probably want to recharge between 10 and 20 percent (to avoid any range anxiety) and won’t charge beyond 80 to 90 percent (as charging gets really slow at the end) so 70% of the “highway summer” range would be a conservative estimate for how frequently you might need to charge each car on that type of journey. There is a big difference in that figure for different EVs though.

Son (18) is with Hastings direct and was just over 2K on a 66 plate 1.2 Suzuki Swift. Would have been just under £2k for an Aygo I think. Black box but no limit on what hours he can drive and the “two speeding strikes and you are out” bit is only for going massively over the limit. Can’t remember exactly what it was but I remember reading it and thinking if he was going that fast he deserved it. It’s certainly not just a case of going one or two mph over the limit or anything.

He stacked his first car into a tree (which is why it is so expensive of course) and they were very good. Settled up quickly with a decent price and let him put another car on the same policy at no extra charge. We’ll see what happens at renewal time but I’ve spoken to a couple of local lads who had crashes in their first year of driving and both said that their premiums didn’t really rise much after the first crash they just didn’t go down like they would  normally after the first year. We’ll have to see on that one though.

Lost the key to one of ours so the garage removed it for us and put on a regular nut instead. Can’t really see the point to them myself. When did you last hear of anybody getting their wheels nicked? Also there are plenty of kits online for removing them (it took the garage less than five minutes) so if they want them they’ll nick them anyway.

Is charger rage a thing ?

A few times when I’ve done long trips at busy times (e.g. Christmas) I’ve noticed that all the chargers are full (fair enough) but there didn’t seem to be any queueing system with cars either sitting in random places or driving around, which seems like a recipe for conflict. So, is this something you’ve experienced?

That is a challenging price for a used car these days. Might be worth checking some car auctions though. It’s a risky way to buy to be sure but at that price everything is and those circa £3k being sold by dealers were often picked up at auction for around a grand I guess. Probably need to be prepared for some repair costs, but you might get lucky.

Yes, good to see, but to be honest mopping up the tail has been a bit of an issue for England for a while now. Not sure if they just get too cute. You’d think having the option of Mark Wood steaming in at the number 10 would be simple enough.

OK, thanks. It sounds as though, one way or another, it would be possible to get something to work.

Most EV owners (at least on here) seem to be on Octopus and there must be a reason for that. So, if all else failed I guess I could just switch supplier. On the face of it the OVO anytime EV tariff looks like a decent solution. It seems to offer 7p/kwh any time you like. The “catch” being that you are only getting 7p/kwh for the EV charging not the whole house, but on the plus side is doesn’t increase the peak rate either as it’s just an add-on to your normal tariff for EV charging (as far as I can tell). The information on the web is a bit confusing though. In some places it clearly says that you either need a smart charger or a compatible EV (not both) but in other places it implies that you need the smart charger  and a car that can connect to the internet while charging.

Hmm, had a bit of a deeper look at the OVO anytime EV thing and am even more confused.

The car I was thinking about (Smart #1) isn’t on their list of compatible EVs but if I tick the boxes to say it isn’t on the list but I have an Ohme charger and my car can connect to the internet then it thinks I’ll be fine. But just because a car can connect to the internet doesn’t mean it can do whatever they want it to do does it? And if it can then why isn’t it on the list of compatible EVs? Guess I’m going to need to have a chat with OVO, but they don’t exactly make things easy for newbies do they. What if the phone signal for whatever network the car uses is a bit flaky, for example. Could end up spending a lot of money on an EV and then find you can’t actually charge it at home, which changes everything. Or am I being too negative?

These discussions often tend to focus of stuff that should be banned (or penalised in some way) and on education. But I think the key should be to promote a healthy lifestyle rather that focusing on individual foods and it should be more about showing than telling.

For example, on Saturday I had a smoked sausage supper (Scottish for “stick some chips with that pal”) and a can of regular coke for my evening meal. Nobody could call that healthy and if I ate it every day (or even every week) that would be bad. But I’d just finished a five and a half hour trail run and a quick hit of fat, salt, sugar and caffeine was just what I needed. Or at least what I wanted, but the point is that you can eat the occasional crap meal if you are making up for it elsewhere.

You can tell people about healthy lifestyles all day long but to effect a change you’ve got to get them to feel it. We all know how hard it can be to get off the couch sometimes, but we also now how much better we feel if we do. If you haven’t felt that then it is very hard to actually take that first step. So, I think, they key is to get people to that point where they start to feel the benefit. Not really sure how you do that but I’m pretty sure it’s a societal change not just a single policy.

I love test cricket, but if they can’t do something to make these series more competitive it’s hard to see it flourishing. Same when England go to India or Australia and get thrashed. The only “good” series these days seem to be when a stronger nation tours to a weaker one.

Ah, clever. Thanks. I’m not actually on Octopus but presumably OVO can do something similar with their anytime EV tariff (which isn’t anytime at all really of course).

But you also need to be able to set the car up so that it can accept a charge at any time (without going to sleep or setting off alarms) right? Presumably the car has to control when the charging stops too as the supplier doesn’t know when you’ve reached the desired percentage. Or does it?

If using Ohme, you have to remove any sort of charge timers etc from your car so it will accept whatever it’s given by the charger’s schedule. In my case, this means the car is expecting a full charge at all times, but it’s not always getting it – so it generates alerts from the app saying ‘oh no, charging has stopped’ etc. So you turn these off in the car/app and only get alerts from the charger.

Presumably this is what @big_scot_nanny was talking about when they talked about making the Ohme into a dumb charger. I guess there is more to these chargers (and charging different cars) than I’d bargained for and there doesn’t seem to be any consensus on what bit of kit (car or charger) should actually be in charge.

So, I think I’ve now almost completed my EV “thought experiment”. With much help from you all (thanks) I’ve worked out a shortlist of EVs that would fit the bill and even the charger/tariff that I’d need. But I’m now back to that old chestnut of does an EV actually make sense for me at all?

I recently had a play in a (pure) petrol Suzuki Swift Sport. Now, full disclosure, I’m a big Suzuki fan. My S-cross is ugly as sin but I bought it new and in 140,000 miles it hasn’t given me a moment of trouble. The (pre-hybrid) Sport is basically the same 1.4l turbo engine, which is surprisingly nippy, stuck in the Swift, which I think is the perfect size car now the kids have grown up.

It was a reminder of just how much fun a moderately powerful, light (sub 1,000 kg) car can be. Nothing special on paper. Plenty of EVs will thrash the 8.1s 0-62 mph time. But chuck it into a corner, let it understeer, lift off and feel that switch to oversteer. Hilarious. It also has all the toys I want (CarPlay, adaptive cruise) but doesn’t try to grab the steering wheel off you just because you get too close to the line (turn off the lane departure warning and it stays off next time).

More importantly, I could get a 2019 model with under 20k on the clock for around £13k. I can be pretty confident that it will be trouble free for the next six years and 120k. My local independent garage can service and repair it (if needed). No worries about driving it across the country if the mood takes me etc.

I know I’m not comparing like with like, but all the EVs I’m looking at are north of £20k and would have to be serviced (at least for now) at a main dealer. I don’t know how reliable they would be over, say, six years and 120k and longer journeys would be more of a pain. Yes, assuming nothing goes wrong, running costs should be lower, but low enough to offset the purchase price?

Anyway, this probably isn’t the place to talk about petrol hatches and the EV vs ICE debate has probably been done to death. But it helps me to put my thoughts down in writing, so thanks for bearing with me.

Thanks all. Sounds as though Ohme is safe enough.

I was a bit surprised (and bewildered) to be given a choice of four. OK I can see (now) that there is a tethered vs untethered question and maybe some do look prettier than others but they didn’t give me a choice when they fitted the smart meter and the sparky didn’t ask what fuse box (or whatever they are called these days) we wanted when we had the extension done. They just fitted something that did the job.

Thanks @andy4d That was the one I was leaning towards anyway to be honest. We’re not exactly house proud and it wont be the scruffiest looking thing on our driveway anyway.

While I’m trying to get my head around what features of an EV actually matter to me, I thought I’d look at home chargers. No point getting an EV if I can’t charge at home really.

I’m with OVO energy (Scotland) and they seem to have an OK looking EV tariff. They can also apparently install a charger for me. Makes sense; they deliver the electrons to my house so they might as well take care of diverting them to the car.

So, step 1; choose a charger. What? How? Is there any difference? Well, the options are:

Ohme ePod £914

Indra Smart PRO £914

Ohme Home Pro £964

Hypervolt Home 3 Pro £1,064

All prices include installation but assume it will be a simple one.

So, any reason to pick (or avoid) one over the other?

A quick squirt of the accelerator is fun and helps get around traffic. I use it once or twice per commute I guess (yes, the ability to accelerate amazingly fast is turning me into a bit of a nob).

That’s the problem. I don’t think I need any help in that department :)

I think you’re overthinking all this.

Oh, that’s a given. Overthinking is what I do best.

The thing is that there is this (hypothetical) sensible option I could (and should) go for. But then there is this bonkers option that I could (but shouldn’t) go for too. The bonkers option makes no sense except to my inner child. But then my inner child isn’t suddenly going to shut up just because I went with the sensible option. Maybe I should just save the money I was thinking of spending on an EV and spend it on therapy instead :)

That said, a 6 or 7s 0-60 time is probably enough.

This is the question I’m trying to wrestle with. A sub 7s 0-60 time is plenty. That’s hot hatch territory. Why would I possibly want more than that? Except I could have something that could do 0-60 in under 4s and how cool would that be :)

A 500 mile car is going to use 50% more valuable battery resources than is realistically needed, and for what? Hardly anyone is going to use it. You’re not going to drive 6-7hrs in one go.

This gets back to a point I was making earlier about not understanding the obsession with range. I still think what we need (and what will come) is better charger infrastructure rather than ever longer range. But, to be fair, a 500 mile WLTP range probably wouldn’t be any more than 400 miles on the motorway (maybe less in winter) and you wouldn’t want to drop below 10% or charge beyond 80% so you need to look at 70% of that, which is “only” 280 miles between refuelling stops. That is still a bit less than most petrol cars do on a tank of fuel. Given that you can fit a fuel tank of almost any size in an ICE car, there is presumably a reason why most ICE cars can go at least 300 miles between refuelling stops. I guess that marks the point at which “range” stops being an issue (i.e. you will almost always want to stop before your car says you have to) with the current infrastructure. So I guess it’s not a bad benchmark for an EV.

If you live in an area where the main roads are windy and single carriageway then it can make a difference.

Good point and I do :) It’s probably the only place where I could legitimately argue that my car is safer than, say, my wife’s car as I spend less time on the wrong side of the road getting past slow moving traffic. Mind you, that does mean that I look for spaces to pass in my car but when I’m in my wife’s I don’t bother looking unless there is a long clear straight and just stick on a podcast instead (and annoy all the people behind who now have two cars to try to pass :) ).

It does make me wonder why people always quote 0-60 times though when something like 40-70 is a more useful real-world measure. This is where the old petrol turbo engines were fun. Not so fast off the line as the turbo didn’t kick in until 2,000 rpm but a nice bit of power just where you needed it. I guess with an EV that isn’t an issue though and the 40-70 mph time will be proportional to the 0-62 anyway.

Personally I wouldn’t buy a Tesla and that is down to Musk, but I wouldn’t have any issues buying a VAG car. Don’t suppose it makes sense but I doubt I’m alone. Most car purchases are pretty irrational really.

Anyway, back to more interesting things:

I live on a hillside, accessed by a dirt track in a forest in Scandinavia, i’ve got stuck once in 2 decades. Driving an assortment of 2wd cars.

Thanks. I guess it’s been over 20 years since we last bought a 2WD car. Although I know that 2WD+good tyres beats 4WD with average tyres I still think that 4WD+good tyres is going to be the safest option up here. But we don’t get the snow we got 20 years ago and obviously traction control systems (and tyres) have come a long way in that time. With ICE cars there wasn’t really a reason not to go with 4WD (or AWD) cars. They were a bit more expensive to buy and run but didn’t really change what you can do other than being a bit safer when conditions were bad. With EVs you have to sacrifice some range to get a dual motor setup (as there is usually a single motor version of the same car that goes further) so you could end up regretting that decision on longer journeys I guess.

Thanks to all the people who took the time to respond to my comments/questions. I won’t quote them all here but have read them all and found them very useful.

I’m now wrestling with this issue of insane power in an EV. It seems strange to live in a world where I could buy a car that goes from 0-60mph in under 4s. That is the super-car performance that my adolescent self dreamt of and since I never actually grew up it is very hard to resist. But we’re back to the dual motor issue and the price you have to pay in reduced range. Plus would/should I actually use that insane acceleration. A few people have commented that they don’t but obviously still like having it. But if you aren’t going to use it is it really worth paying the price in reduced range/efficiency? Where is it actually a real-world advantage to be able to accelerate that quickly?

I’ve never had an issue getting up to speed on a slip road. I guess it would allow me to nip out in front of people who are a bit closer (or going a bit faster) at junctions and roundabouts. But is that a good idea? If they are too close for you to be able to pull out in a car with normal acceleration maybe they are just too close. If in doubt, chicken out as the driving instructor tried to drill into my son.

I do use the acceleration of my current car to get in front of other cars sometimes, but nine times out of ten it just results in them being even more determined to get past again, which they can always do by taking more risks or being more aggressive. So you end up doing 100 mph down the dual carriageway trying to see who can brake later and hang on round the roundabout. Well I do, which probably means that I shouldn’t be allowed to drive anything that accelerates faster than a milk float :)

Thanks. I should have realised that there would be a youtube channel dedicated to reviewing car audio systems :) To be honest, given the sort of punky stuff I listen to I probably shouldn’t be worrying about it too much. I basically just want it to go loud without distorting any more than it did when it was recorded :)