Granular / granularity – I use these quite often…

… But then, I’m a geologist (we classify stuff based on grain size 😉 )

After more than 60 years it’s time to get out.

I know time flies when you’re enjoying yourself, but 60 years???
FACTCHECK time? I thought UK joined in 1973…

Nothing to fear but am really bored with this EU bureaucrats now … Simply bored! Am bored! You know bored? You know?

Good to know that the Country is being divided over such prosaic concerns

Speak to Police ASAP.

Illegal ownership = 5 years mandatory prison sentence. (Judge has no discretion on sentencing)

I think BoJo has done a deal with Cameron – do an inside job on Leave and we’ll see you right on the leadership…

Can’t see any rational explanation for Boris’ behaviour. He’s clearly not got any deep convictions regarding the EU, which is why John Humphries wouldn’t let go of the “Two Telegraph Articles” on last week’s R4 interview.

Strange times indeed…

From this:

Oh my darling, oh my darling
Oh my darling, Heseltine
You’re a tosser, you’re a wanqer
And you’re just a Tory swine

To this:

Lord Heseltine has said he would be “very surprised” if Boris Johnson become prime minister after his “preposterous, obscene” remarks during the European Union referendum campaign

BBC Heseltine BoJo(b)

Scarpa Mantas – yes, good. My oldest pair are 30yrs old…!

Nothing is quite as satisfying as waking up a campsite with the roar of an MSR Dragonfly (and the smell of fresh espresso)

And the current “missing link” in fleece apparel – Mountain Equipment Ultrafleece. I still have three tops and a shirt, with youngest dating from about 1993.

Subsequent fleeces are either soft and stretchy mid layers or bulky outers. The thin, but tightly woven (?) Ultrafleece was an excellent outer. Relatively windproof, light, really good in drizzle and quick drying. Ideal on its own over a base layer.

(Oh, and I really miss fleece joggy bottoms)

ants come to the UK to do the jobs the Brits won’t touch” – I started out doing agricultural labouring

Casual farm labouring here – cold, wet, stupidly hard work

Red Herring ? Not if you are the working class person who’s wages are being undermined. Ask yourself why First Direct’s warehouse is staffed mainly by eastern europeans ? Or the fields of East Anglia are worked mainly the same way ?

Most Brits wouldn’t touch agricultural labouring

ETA – I assume you mean First Direct ? If so a classic example of a crooked / greedy employer, and EXACTLY the reason why EU employment law serves UK employees.

@jamba – hasn’t worked in the US… Which is why Trump is on a roll. US blue collar incomes have been static since the 70s. The manufacturing sector that used to employ them cannot compete with offshore manufacturers – yet they can control immigration AND set import tarrifs – ie what Leave envisage for the UK

@kelvin – I see your C as philosophically the same as my A. Brexit a cover for employers to drive costs down further, whilst creaming off more (back to the US comparison)

Damn, this thread moves fast…

Anyway, this I don’t understand:

Uncontrolled immigration from an ever expanding list of poor EU countries is going to drive wages and working conditions down in the UK pushing more and more jobs down to minimum wage. How on earth is that good for working people ?

You hear from politicians to pub pundits, but I don’t follow the logic…

1. As an EU member, we have accept free movement of EU Nationals

2. EU migrants from Eastern Europe are perceived to have driven down UK wages, through an influx of cheap labour.

3. If we leave the EU (and don’t negotiate a free trade deal), we can dispense with free movement, “take back control” of immigration and therefore reduce those claimed competitive cheap labour pressures on the UK employment market???

Is that correct???

If so, then it must be contradictory with :

4. Outside of the EU, the U.K. can take back control of our economy and become MORE COMPETETIVE.

So, Brexiteers, some soul searching and honest answers (to yourselves)

Do you envisage UK WAGES going DOWN or going UP if we leave

A. More competitive means wages down, EU migrants or not (assuming productivity remains poor)

B. Wages up means less competitive on the world stage…

If you answered A, are you an employer – with a vested interest in driving UK wages down?
If you answered B, can you seriously trust the folks that appear to be selling two contradictory things?

I like to watch history channel with the experts interpreting events immediately after WWII and I ain’t going to argue with them about their views. Good enough?

May well be – but if so, I suggest the wording in your post was a little off, because this:

Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory

Is wide of the mark…
The Brits weren’t the last ones standing and a fairly minor role in fighting back (I know, we were part of D-Day and the Northern / Western European campaign, as well as the fight up through Italy)

It wasn’t even the Yanks, although they like to think otherwise.

As for influence, my understanding is that by 1945, Roosevelt / Truman and Stalin had pretty much cut Churchill out of any say in how the post-war set up was going to look…

I’ve used the train a lot from Cardiff this year…

A fairly regular trip to Chesterfield requires me to change at Bristol Parkway, so I have to use FGW trains to / from Paddington. Most seats have reservations TBH, but a lot of them aren’t taken until you get to Bristol. Return journeys are worse – because travelling on an (expensive) open ticket to allow for meeting time flexibility, you often return on a train with no available seats.

CrossCountry are as bad as FGW. They give out (normal passenger) reservations for the disability access seats – so a ticket has cost £200-300, you’ve got a reserved seat, and you then have to stand 👿

BTW – no problem with giving up my seat, my problem is with the train company… WTF are they doing issuing reservations on disability access seats???

Churchill has to keep an eye on the situation in Europe so he would definitely need to be in for rebuilding the place. Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory.

FFFS – you don’t know history either…?

ETA – regarding Churchill’s leadership. The Right seem to hold him up as A Strong Leader… Churchill was undoubtedly the wartime leader Britain needed, but he wasn’t the “Strong” Thatcher type leader the Tories idolise. Churchill’s strength was in presiding over a coalition government and keeping the people of the country together in the face of calamity… Whilst reportedly in a newt like state. That is true leadership, unlike Thatcher et al.

However the Swiss recently voted in a referendum to limit immigration so the EU will have to suck this up or kick Switzerland out of the the free trade agreement.

Yes, and from what I’ve read, the EU has already applied sanctions linked to the Swiss restriction on free movement. Swiss participation in EU wide schemes such as ERASMUS has been curtailed and is already having an impact.

Regarding Churchill, there is no need to put words into a dead man’s mouth. He was on record as pro European integration and was of the opinion that the days of nation states had passed He WANTED a United States of Europe

Never Mind the Bollocks – always was an attention grabbing title…!

See Carter mentioned – 101 Damnations nice little play and reflects the lyrical content

There’s an album you don’t hear about much anymore. I used to listen ‘101 Damnations’ and ’30 Something’ pretty much constantly. Helped by the fact that they fitted nicely on to either side of a C90 tape…

Been listening to all three of these – still love the energy and the dark cutting lyrics!!!

Benefits of the MP3 era – gone are the days of listening to very narrow genres based on age / peers etc. Son and some of his mates listen to Carter – mind boggling!!!

Leave more truthful more than Remain

Boris Johnson is trusted on Europe by twice as many voters as David Cameron, according to a poll.

Belief / trust totally different to truth / accuracy.

Look to the major religious belief systems if you want proof! Many “believe”, to the extent that they commit heinous atrocities against those that don’t (or have a slightly different “belief”). There’s a distinct ABSENCE of FACT or TRUTH – but still people believe… 🙄

(And I’m not even talking about the core values such as existence of supreme deity [to far beyond proof / disproof]. Plenty enough that (still) believe man made in God’s image, Earth 4000ish years old etc. Facts tell otherwise, but don’t convince the poorly educated, brainwashed or ignorant.)

Maybe BJ is just a convincing liar?

@rkk we weren’t particularly good at manufacturing many things so that’s dead. Innovation amd high tech value added is where its at.

Oh, I know that – at least for large parts of it (we’ve always been quietly quite good at the specialist & high end)

Your kids will be competing for work and housing and against many mkre Europeans willing tomwork for less and live in smaller places as its still a big uptick for them versus home

That I am afraid, is a filthy, disgusting argument… You should truly be ashamed. I truly hope you reflect and reconsider. The same used to be said about about those that tried to take on corner shops – I won’t repeat the deeply racist & offensive term that used to be used.

As for my kids having to compete – of course they will. I have had to compete through my career – to get qualified, to get a job in the “middle class” professions, to advance and prosper(ish) in my career. It’s a competitive world – every day. Win work, deliver work, get paid, develop reputation, get more work.

And that is why is it is important to hear the business voices. We will still need to compete. Every day. With each other, and with our global competitors

Brexiters= bold, regain our place on the world stage, trade etc.

And how, exactly, are we going to do that???

Militarily? WTF?
Economically? – of course!! Our strong manufacturing base will flood the global market with our superior and competitive products – or perhaps our illustrious bankers will deviously extort our way back to the top of the global league table…

I’d expect. No I’m mightily heartened, that my two teenagers have a better grasp of reality. I just hope they don’t have to FO to a less backwards country* to make their way in the world 😡

* in the event that this ridiculous anti-intellectual coup is pulled off by the disingenuous politicians that are pushing their own self interested agenda

I normally find STW to be a stimulating and articulate place, full of good info and advice.

The opinions being expressed on this thread are terrifying – truly cringeworthy… If it wasn’t for the topicality of the question, I’d say it’s enough to make me feel ashamed to be British (but that plays to Brexiteers, who seem to have some false claim on patriotism)

The U.K. joined the EEC when I was 6. I don’t remember the political issues of the time, but bloody hell, I can recognise how much the country has changed – and mostly for the better. My school at the time had outside sh!thouses, we (just) had a B&W telly, baths were once a week and the country was deeply racist & sexist.

The U.K. is unrecognisable compared to when I was a kid / teenager / young man. Better off, more liberal, more tolerant (I thought). Of course, it would be stupid to say is down to Europe, but I truly believe that progress has been quicker because of the influence and interaction with our European neighbours.

And economically? Where are we now compared to 1973? Massively better off, for most – financially and in our life choices. As a comparison on the “progress” front, there was an interesting analysis on the BBC website about Trump, and his appeal. American “blue collar” workers are no better of in 2016 than they were in the mid-70s. I cannot imagine anyone would claim the same for Britain. And much of the US can hardly be accused of moving forward with liberal attitudes.

Nothing to do with Europe? Possibly not, but they’re changes that have improved our lives whilst the Country has been a member of the European club.

And, if anyone wants to know what the UK might look like outside the EU, pop across the Irish Sea to Douglas. I’ve visited the Isle of Man quite a few times, including staying with locals.

First impressions are that it’s fantastic – Britain without the “EU” bullshit. Hell, they don’t even have speed limits on the open road, and can hold road races on normal roads…! It really, really does feel like the UK in a previous time.

Get a bit below the surface and you also find the less appealing side of “Britain in the 50s, 60s or 70s”.
Pubs are pubs – don’t even think of taking kids in as part of a family meal ( remember when the UK was like that???)

Justice is swift, summary and somewhat arbitrary. Coppers & the magistrate aren’t to be argued with. If they don’t like the cut of your jib, then the verdict is likely to be “constable, take him to the port, put him on the boat and tell him not to come back”. This might sound quite quaint and appealing, but don’t even think about appealing. Power / authority is vested in certain individuals, is arbitrary and not to be challenged (all IMHO, but I stayed with a pair of IoM coppers and their take was very interesting)

Remember Clarkson revelled in all this when he moved there – until he fell foul of the authorities about a footpath…

just a sign of abject stupidity.

Well, that’s the flaw with the whole referendum and the muppets that suggested it. 40-50 years of raising stupid, generation after generation that “value” ignorance as some sort of virtue. Democracy – doesn’t work if you don’t have an informed electorate, and a substantial proportion of ours just does not want to be informed 🙁

Ohh, and this

have a punt mentality

…

FFS, this is jobs and livelihoods, ours’, our kids’ and grandkids’…

I take that that book isn’t to be judged by its cover…

ETA – Just read an interesting review on that…!

Re James Dyson…

He must be our most high profile business success of last 20 years and he’s firmly Leave as its bad for his business.

FFS, really? On what criteria?

Innovation? – I grant you the original Dyson vacuums were novel, but the technology came straight from the mineral processing industry…

Manufacturing / employment? Mostly offshore, presumably to avoid pesky European levels of overhead cost? If we leave, do we expect our manufacturing base to come flooding back? Because if they do it will be because we’ve all been screwed over so badly that we’ll be willing to work for two shillings a week, bank holidays off and works trip to the beach in the summer, bread, milk, bangers & mash and the after work pint…

… Just where the leaders of Brexit want us – slap bang back in the fifties 👿

Oh and an ETA as I’ve just re-read…

high profile business success of last 20 years

This tells us how it is possible to be successful as a business in the EU… i.e. success built entirely within the period of our membership

At present any EU citizen can travel here. If we leave then they cannot. God knows what happens to all of us over there or the ones here with British born kids etc.

Nonsense, surely? If we want to trade, then we accept free movement of EU citizens, surely? From what I have read, the Swiss have been rather slow in implementing the “free movement” part of their EU trade deal, and are now facing sanctions. Students and universities are particularly hard hit as access to the Erasmus programme and various other shared academic programmes have been curtailed for Swiss participants…

Sorry, but can someone explain for the “hard of thinking”…?

– I can’t see any connection between EU membership / EU exit and immigration control. I’d be fascinated to hear this explained in a rational manner.
– Also, I don’t understand the “we’d be able to manage our own economy” type assertions… Surely, in a globalised economy this is either delusional or requires some form of complete withdrawal from the global marketplace 😯

Zero phone use at work here as well…
(Handset, hands free, tablet, GPS, MP3 player etc)

Taken seriously by all, and plenty of indications that it’s disciplinary / sackable. Would certainly result in client action if a staff member took a client call whilst driving

Also interesting is this:

Environmental research[/url]

Research report

When politicians of a certain persuasion talk about “cutting red tape”, this is what they mean…

– get rid of that pesky environmental legislation…
– increase profits by reducing “overheads” relating to looking after the environment (it makes me laugh that Brexiteers are railing against Corporate Remain statements – the responsible Corporates will continue to manage their environmental liabilities… Whilst others will just follow the profit motive without any EU imposed restraints)
– get rid of this ‘elf n safety nonsense, because we all want a boss that just tells us to get the F on with it…
– etc, etc

kyl spoke to some farming people in the Lake District lastvweek and they where very much Leave, thry also said if farmers where more confident a futur government would match subsidies many more would be strongly leave

Political posters on big landholdings are deceptive in all elections – representation of ideas based on wealth… You’re talking about several miles (10s of) hoardings to represent the views of one landowner… Also, the farming community is a small, and dare I say, quite isolated segment of the U.K. population, with largely right wing views (I say this coming from a farming family background – the masters voice is all that counts and any other views can get orf down the road)

Interestingly, NFU has come out for Remain, which I find surprising. A case of business brain winning over instinctive heart???

I thought that was woods up by Penllergare

Nah, that’s Garth Maelog / Smilog or Castell Coch woods…

Is the Abarth a re-badged MX5?

Largely, I believe…

Basic platform is mx-5, but with Fiat / Abarth bodywork and drivetrain

I do like the new Abarth 124 Spider…

And now talk of re-examining Orgreave, on the basis of same force and same tactics…

Funny*, as teenager / student growing up in the 80s the refrain of Police State / Maggies Stormtroopers / Politicised Police Force were dismissed as the lunatic rantings of commies, anarchists and the generally anti-social 🙁

Listening to the angry rantings of the Pogues or Carter today, I still enjoy the energy & ferocious invective, but can’t help thinking – they weren’t exactly wrong were they???

* Well, not funny at all, really. Sad, ironic, disheartening

Note to self – book a bloody test…

My father has lived with this for 16 years – his two friends and next door neighbours were diagnosed at the same time, but sadly passed away some time ago. Over the last couple of year’s his PSA has gone up and probably doesn’t have a lot of time left 🙁

jambalaya – Member
See the other thread, IDS has resigned to campaign for Leave. Osbourne is tied to Remain as is Cameron, Remain is a sinking ship.
Hats off to the elements of the press that have managed to link cuts to the disabled as being the result of tax cuts to the middle classes.

Not according to his own resignation letter…
bbc link/url]

As many have long suspected:

– cuts politically motivated. Tick
– ideologically driven. Tick
– economically necessary. Nah (ref IDS comparison of young family vs wealthy pensioners)
– All in it Together… Blown out of the water

Beat me too it – I thought this was going to be a Cornish beer thread…!

Big Job, fish and chips for tea tonight 😈

People like to seduce, rarely on a sexual level but often on a social or business level. Call it charm if you wish. People like being seduced too. You can seduce people of the same sex, the other sex, you want them to find you interesting, amusing, astute, worth knowing, sexy (even if you don’t want sex with them).

This, absolutely…

“Flirting” can range from wildly inappropriate to an essential inter-personal skill (not saying that applies to this situation). Much of business relies on building good relationships

Anyone tried these Karesuando knives?
linky

Saw some yesterday and liked the look of them…
This is particularly nice, except the price for the Damascus blade 🙁

Admittedly not a practical general purpose piece though…

Ok. So PUP.Mindspark isolated and removed… 😡

Laptop much happier and quicker now! But still not able to access the website that Mrs rkk01 needed to access…!
Turns out it needs IE10, which isn’t Vista compatible… Simplest of things…

Cheers, will run malwarebytes…

A bit of housekeeping appears to have speeded things up, but haven’t got to the bottom of the Internet access issue.

is this any different in any other area?

In some ways yes. The transferable skills brought in by mature candidates are not recognised – exacerbated by “advancement by time served”. A 30-35 yr old transferring from another profession would be significantly junior to a mid 20s teacher, say grad +5yrs. That extra experience is likely to include budget and staff / team management skills that are of considerable value, but that are not valued.

I dont think teaching is the only job with agreed pay scales and not all of them have this problem. Secondly the experience is why they get better pay so you would be left with ability. Its very hard to measure.

But that advancement and increase in pay makes teachers less able to transfer between jobs – they’re just seen as a bigger hit on tight budgets. There appears to me to be little or no incentive to recruit skilled, experienced teachers, so they sit tight and risk “going stale”.

I think this is political point, abut the public sector, that displays bias, unless you have some specific evidence to back this up.

Absolutely no political point. I work closely with public sector clients (and hence have some exposure to various public sector management styles, and a number of close family members teach. As to evidence, well that wouldn’t be for a public forum…