One had to go (dependent visa) because he was told the govt would not issue him the “work permit” even when was already working with the company! The company liked him but they just could not get work permit for him because company could not convince the bureaucrats!

I think Vote Leave would regard that as “being in control of immigration”

Chartered by ALL the British institutions i.e. ACCA, ICWA, ACA whatever professional bodies you have they got it all …
As for the scientist the qualification is from British Institution as well …
Most that I know have British Qualifications !!! Most commonwealth people who are here have some form of qualifications that are either British or British recognised.

Well, unless there are other factors here (legal status, criminal record etc) then I fail to see the issue. As stated, they’d need to be the best / most suitable candidate. IF they are being discriminated against, then it possibly says more about the person hiring than it does about the EU.

Over the last 20-30 yrs, many working class Brits have struggled to break in to the middle class professions – If your face doesn’t fit / not one of us. For the large / reputable employers this has definitely changed over the last 5-10 yrs, and is one of the areas where EU membership has probably helped. It is the smaller employers / owner-manager types that tend to work along the “what I say goes” approach, which is why I am suspicious of the smaller businesses wanting to get out of EU and cut red tape.

Yep, qualifications come in lots of different forms – not just from a college or professional institution.

Our firm is in science & engineering. We’ve always had a lot of people moving to / from Aus and NZ. Same language, similar degree set up and also similar legal systems. A number of folks also go to / from the US, particular tech experts and client contact types – but for most of us the very different legal system and way of dealing with regulators is a bit of a block. Not to say we couldn’t transfer across, but more difficult case to make / other candidates better placed?

By the same store, transfer to say France or Germany would be difficult (not just language). Although the basic EU Directives that underpin environmental law are the same, both these countries have a very different regulatory approach

Some serious confusion on recruitment here. We have people from all over the globe. I’ve recruited UK, EU and Commonwealth citizens to the team.

UK and EU is straightforward – they still have to be qualified and be the best candidate for the job.
Non-EU just means a bit more work (for HR), but again no barrier at all to getting a job provided they’re here legally and have the paperwork to show it.

chewkw – the folks that you know / know of… Perhaps they’re being spun a line by someone who finds it easier to blame the EU rather than be honest with them, or perhaps they really aren’t qualified, in which case that’s no different to a UK citizen pitching up for a job that they’re not qualified for

Double post glitchy

ETA – so might as well add…

… What’s up with Turkey then?

Push come to shove I would put Sturgeon in charge or more likey EU politicians until we get some decent ones.

Sturgeon and Rudd were both very impressive in the ITV debate – stand out contributions in a sea of drivel. Accurate, incisive, authoratitive

Folks are talking about Turkey as if they are a pariah state.

Let’s not forget – we would go to WAR to defend them

chewkw

Crikey, there is nothing new there.
Very simple. Law is men/women made so law can be improved or changed with the will of the men/women.

Well, that means you didn’t watch the video clip then…

If you did, you will know that a large part of the 20 odd minutes was explaining the amount of effort required (and giving away of “sovereignty”) necessary to work through all the laws and trade deals to re-write and or re-negotiate them all 😉

sbob – thanks. Didn’t get many answers on those two…!

On TTIP, yes I understand the bit about ISDSs. The bit I don’t understand is if a trading block of similar size / combined GDP cannot negotiate this out of the deal, how is it conceivable that a post-Brexit UK could???? If the Yanks are adding ISDSs to their trade agreements, then surely we have SFA choice whether in or out of the EU?

saying the Labour Party has “blood on its hands” over the politician’s death.

Confused. Can someone explain for the hard of thinking 😕

All I want to know is when is campaigning going to get started again. Tragic death of the labour politician, but did it really require parliament to be recalled and campaigning to basically shut down to such an extent that ALL momentum has effectively disappeared.

Are you for real???

Tragic death of the labour politician Callous political murder of prominent Remain / refugee / ethnic minority rights campaigner

My first thoughts on Thursday were to can the referendum.

I see that Nick Griffin and Katie Hopkins have launched a diatribe against those linking Jo Cox’s murder with referendum – well no, her own husband has called on people to fight the hatred (that RW hatred) that killed her.

It didn’t take many hours for the BF / RW aspects to seep out into the news. To put out the statement that he did, it would seem likely that Brendan Cox already had some pretty good info on what happened 🙁

Especially as we now know that she was about to publish a paper about RW extremism…

“far right hate groups like Vote Leave”

Not sure it’s fair to paint VL as “far right”, but they’ve certainly added to the debate in a way that has allowed more hateful messages to gain “legitimacy”, including Farage / UKIP

There’s nothing in that Islamic message that should be controversial, surely?

My atheist’s perspective is based on the understanding that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is a continuum? Where you get off defines which one you inhabit? You know, three prophets, one God

In.
Work colleagues in (environment, engineering)
Family in, including parents in 80s and in-laws in late 70s. Credit to them, their inclinations are probably out, but they recognise the risks to and desires of their kids and grand kids.

Wider friends – either in or not stated (career professionals)
Wider family – out (farmers, small business owners)

Nah, she just wants to make a headline and she’s been sat on the wall waiting for one way or the other. She’s obviously now decided to vote with the Remain, must be where she thinks the referendum will go and wants a job going forward.

Or, she has decided that that “Breaking Point” poster and a seemingly politically motivated murder (both reminiscent of 1930s Third Reich) indicate that the whole Out agenda is being dragged in a very ugly direction.

I’ve carefully (tried anyway) not labelled the Vote Leave as being part of this, but other elements are clearly supporting an exit for very troubling reasons

Apparently, Vote Leave have been lying:

“Unfortunately what we are seeing as a vision for Britain are lies and xenophobic campaigning. Why is it people like me, who are instinctively Eurosceptic, are feeling they need to leave Leave?
“Because day after day, what are we hearing? The refugees are coming, the rapists are coming, the Turks are coming.”

Former leave campaigner says it’s all lies…

Very, very unusual for politicians to use the word “lie” – says it all really. Sarah Wollaston could stand up behind the lies either, so what does that say about Vote Leave???

Mikewsmith – yep, that bit I get…

I don’t know how to square that away with being so much more competitive?!

Good to see that Baroness Warsi has decided that she can’t support the xenophobes and racists…

VL has really given public space for the toxic views that were once not part of mainstream views. Saw a chap with extreme nazi views on his t shirt in supermarket yesterday 🙁

Anyway, from i:
VL given these people “mainstream” airtime? They should be ashamed[/url]

Bencooper – that really ought to go viral…!

FB linky???

So, I still have two questions for a Brexit campaigners – genuinely don’t know the answer and got into a “debate” on the TTIP one with a VL person in Cardiff yesterday…

1. TTIP.
So, this campaigner was telling everyone to vote Leave to save the NHS because TTIP would allow US corporates to sue EU public bodies for loss of profit. My challenge to him was to stop lieing to everyone and actually explain how this might be the case, especially how the UK might negotiate a better deal than TTIP if we were a single small economy dealing with the US.

2. Immigration / wages / competitiveness
I keep hearing (here and in the media) that wages would rise on Brexit because immigrants would not be competing for jobs. How does this work – particularly as VL also state that we will be a more competitive trading nation?

Labour is the biggest single cost to most businesses, so how could we be more competitive with increased wages? We already have a minimum wages, with a commitment to increase that – competition from immigrants shouldn’t push wages <min wage (SportDirect & Monsoon excepted?). I’m also deeply suspicious (having worked for a few) that most small business owners want out. Many (not all) of these folks are deeply self interested / selfish and wouldn’t pay a penny / day’s leave / maternity protection more than they absolutely had to – and then grudgingly…

(& somewhat ironic that the big business owners are accused of self-interest, but the same accusation isn’t levelled at all the small business owners who generally are)

Gowerboy – now, that kayak ad sounds interesting..? River or sea???

Shit, this stuff doesn’t get better…

Even BBC now talking about incitement.

Guardian & Independent have numerous pieces on the toxic political dialogue

Telegraph supposedly has Jo Cox’s dying words

Very, very grim

Interesting piece in the Guardian today

Press vs Democracy

“The Forger’s Gazette” – not heard that before, priceless!

Didn’t know that The Daily Mail supported Hitler and Mussolini either – truly odious

A time for respect and reflection, but not a time for self-censorship.

Why do I say that?

Because the BBC appears to have presented a highly censored version of this tragic murder (e:g. compared to the Telegraph and Guardian)

BBC should be ashamed of this piece:
Full statement from Brendan Cox

It’s not the full statement, as anyone who has read other print media will know.

They were both campaigners. Mr Cox’s statement asks

that we all unite to fight against the hatred that killed her. Hate doesn’t have a creed, race or religion, it is poisonous.

From the Spectator

So, no, Nigel Farage isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s murder. And nor is the Leave campaign. But they are responsible for the manner in which they have pressed their argument. They weren’t to know something like this was going to happen, of course, and they will be just as shocked and horrified by it as anyone else.

But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’
Day of Infamy[/url]

And a white supremacist…?

The club describes the magazine’s editorial stance as being against “multi-cultural societies” and “expansionist Islam”. A blog post attributed to the group, dated January 2006, described Mair as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S. A. Patriot.”

Ch4 News were cautiously exploring whether a possible political motive 🙁

Undoudtedly a nutter (not a sane thing to do), but the reported “put Britain First” shout has chilling implications, if verified

its relatable.

Indeed, and people are already tentatively relating it to the heat and fury of the referendum debate

I kind of think this thread should be locked for 24 hrs…?

Dreadful

Haven’t seen the clip, but what was the context?

I frequently go to meetings where some parties have had a “pre-meeting” or had met earlier in the day, in which case the focus is entirely on the “new” attendee… (no idea if this applies, but could be one explanation – isn’t diplomatic protocol normally fairly rigorous???)

That Nature editorial ^^ is worth reading

They have their reasons I have mine. I don’t tell them where to get their funding they should not tell me how to vote. They stick to their way of life I stick to mine. Everyone’s happy.

But that’s NOT what’s going on here.
Hawking isn’t telling anyone how to vote (and IMO the other non-politicians aren’t either).

People are voting for one of two different futures for this country – it’s right that people do that with knowledge, and Hawking etc have been pointing out where the EU benefits the UK in areas that might not be obvious to all voters. It’s up to individuals to make up their own mind on that info…

(and come on, the Brexiters have been vocal telling people to Vote Leave 😉 )

paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist

Well, given the evidence in this thread, it would be very, very difficult to come to any other conclusion 🙁

This one alone:

Stephen Hawking (I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)

defines the poster as an utter ****

Out of the people I know, the science and engineering community are entirely for remain. Prof Hawking is absolutely correct to express his concerns publicly as Brexit would have significant implications for research and for applied sciences

One of my daughter’s went to Denmark on Erasmus something which is independent of the EU

No. It is not.

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme

The Erasmus Programme (European Region Action Scheme for the Mobility of University Students[1]) is a European Union (EU) student exchange programme established in 1987. Erasmus+, or Erasmus Plus, is the new programme combining all the EU’s current schemes for education, training, youth and sport, which was started in January 2014.

This is one area where the Swiss are already feeling the results of their No Vote on movement of people. Swiss students have been suspended from Erasmus

jamba

This is not EU money, it’s British money less a substantial tax transfer to the rest of the EU members and to candidate members plus of course to cover EU bureaucracy.

It is and it isn’t.

The raw maths say we pay more in that we get back, so yes based on the numbers I get your argument…

BUT, successive UK Govts have a very poor track record in areas like Cornwall.

If a business is too big to change direction then said business is too big and should not exist. Change happens to us all and you just have to deal with it. Big business should not be treated any differently.

But, business investment decisions are made over decades. How long would the R&D, testing, type approval, manufacture and product support period be for a new Roll Royce aero engine??? 20-30 yrs???

A business needs a believable long term view to take those sort of decisions…

… and if the electorate decides to change the UK’s relationship with the rest of the world, then a fleet of foot business is likely to decide to invest elsewhere.

I look on the other side of the coin and see new business and trade opportunities that will come about. A refreshing change.

Doesn’t come from nowhere… Business, of the volume and employment numbers that we’re talking about comes from an established development / manufacturing / commercial base – which is scarcely what it needs to be now, let alone what it might be after a self-imposed financial crisis.

I have no interest in anyone, be it business or individual who wants to remain solely on the basis they benefit financially from the EU partnership. That to me stinks of the ‘me, me, me selfish attitude’.

Echoes of Pol Pot or ISIS??? Take the country back to an impoverished shell

Strong nihilistic / anarchist streak being exploited?

Tell me how people who know less about something are as able to make a good decision as people who know more..?

Oh, I totally agree… Just doesn’t transfer well to the democratic process 😉

And as for the debate ^^ about qualifications / education and voting…

Yes, one person = one vote

It is supremely arrogant (but an easy trap) to assume that the well educated / informed / more intelligent have a more valid opinion.

The counter argument to this however, is that the “political collective” (all parties) and the print media use their own education and intelligence to BS, mis-inform and whip up populous opinion amongst those who don’t have the time or inclination to come to a more considered opinion.

The recent (previously linked) Independent poll shows the truth of this – people are simply mis-informed and making a life changing decision on bad information.

This Guardian Article – Cornwall Brexit is deeply depressing to me as a Cornishman

Cornwall as a region has benefitted hugely from EU money, but this simply isn’t recognised – cussedness (a Cornish characteristic that I happily call my own), lack of information, lack of interest…?

If voters (from Cornwall, England, Wales, whichever part of the UK) vote leave based on the real issues and facts – then fine, that is the democratic process and decision.

If the UK votes leave based on the garbage that has been peddled so far, then yes, still the democratic process – but such a far reaching decision, and based on such a flawed campaign