sometimes people lose and sometimes people win … its called life !

Err, what exactly has been won?

The self-determination to preside over the biggest economic collapse the country has seen.

Two options available:

1) a slow hand clap for the “winners”,
2) try to stop this monumental fwk up

Lol, yes let’s force through something to reverse what was a perfectly democratic process…..jesus wept, the crying over the result is unreal.
I hate Labour, never vote for them but if they win an election I take it on the chin, it would be nice to see some grace from the people who lost the Remain campaign.

FFS This is not a GE with a 4-5 yr cycle.

This is FOREVER.

“Take Back Control” is utter bollocks. We had control*, but we will be an irrelevance.
This is not going to put the Great back into GREAT BRITAIN – it will diminish us in the world.

* as being expressed at the moment regarding implementing Article 50 – nothing to do with EU, purely down to the Sovereign Govt of the U.K.

An example of what we will lose: my sister did a 1yr EU-funded apprenticeship in a deprived corner of France. She stayed on at that company for two more years, becoming fluent in French in the process. Then came back to the UK where she now uses the skills she learned. Winners: French company gets paid-for employee, British company gets skilled employee, sister gets skills and language, EU gets to feel all fuzzy about looking out for its citizens and deprived regions.

I think the nasty elements exposed in this referendum have a name for that sort of behaviour 🙁

Welcome to the modern UK.
Expertise is to be ignored.
Facts and truth are negotiable ignored / scoffed at.
Debating is just a matter of shouting, “Rubbish!”
Ignorance is a virtue.
Serious matters are treated with as much consideration as Britain’s Got Talent.
The ultimate in dumbing down.
Terrible

Agree with all that – but cheekily added my own little edit 😉

Another thing – one for all those saying that the losing “side” should suck it up and move on…

At what point, do you think, should a “good loser” be called a “quitter”…

and a “poor loser” be admired for the dogged pursuit of their cause?

There’s a lot of angry people looking to minimise the implications of this National self harm

I imagine a fair few people in that position will also be directly responsible for the employment of some of those in other position. I wonder how many will be going into work next week with thoughts of revenge on their minds.

Nope. Being involved in a previous redundancy process is the hardest thing I’ve had to do at work. One reason I was for Remain

And I have to say – those who are carping on that Scotland should accept the result…

… yes they should – there result was IN

I would have been upset if Scotland had left the Union in 2014(?), but it’s their choice to make – but TBH, Scotland’s politicians have shown themselves as head and shoulders above England & Wales’.

Say what you like about Sturgeon – she’s canny, an addroit politician and appears to be working her butt off to look after the Country she represents

Anna Soubry on Ch4 News saying that BoJo had no interest or expectation in Vote Leave winning. As a fellow Tory she was absolutely livid with him for the damage he had done in pursuit of personal advancement

Boris looked like a beaten man yesterday.

I posted this on FB earlier – to try and put that £350M lie into context…

No £350M per week for NHS (no surprise)
No kerbs on immigration…
No truth in the Leave campaign???
£120 billion off London stock market – equivalent to running:
HM Armed Forces for FOUR YEARS…!
Or the NHS for ONE FULL YEAR

And globally £1.24 trillion wiped off stock markets – ONE DAY’s global losses equivalent to 10 years’ UK NHS Budget
The £350M p/w & Immigration Lies

Just so those that are saying suck it up and get on with it can have half a fwking clue what they’re talking about 👿

Genuine question, why then did the Remain campaign not manage to highlight this clear ‘better future’ to the majority who voted Leave?

As has been stated many times (other thread), it’s much harder to sell the benefits of “carry on as you are”. We all know exactly how we were doing last week – whether shit, comfortable, optimistic or no hope for the future.

Loads of financial info on how the economy / country was doing (i.e. Remain case) was available and has had a name – “The News”, any many, many folks don’t give two hoots about the news, the economy, politics etc – presumably that’s why so many were googling the EU after the referendum 😯

And also, the same people (voters and VL politicians / campaigners) didn’t give two hoots about reasonably informed people saying that an out vote would unleash a storm of shit. IT REALLY WASNT PROJECT FEAR. It was people desperately trying to get the uniformed / impossible to be informed / wilfully ignorant that they were racing full speed for a cliff edge

Whether it was economists, politicians, “experts”, or just knowledgeable STW forum users wanting to express their concerns – very few (nobody?) appeared to be interested in listening to factual information or reasonably constructed forecasts.

Are Remain supporters bitter – too right. For me, because the info was there, the implications far reaching and the electorate (many that I heard) not interested in taking an informed decision ON THE ISSUES AT HAND.

Are Remain supporters poor losers – well unfortunately, I suspect we all will be…
… and our children…
… and our grandchildren

He blamed nobody, threatened nothing and sucked it up to say it was time now to regroup, rebuild and get back to business. He was also honest enough to understand the mood in much of the country and step down gracefully.

Haha – that’s so fwking naive.

He has just politely offered the key of No. 10 to BoJo and said “you’re the one who’s crapped in the duvet – you clean it up”
🙄

Dannyh – that must make Mr Dyson a racist

No – because:

In my experience today,

Well, I’ll put my hand up regarding getting heated – I thought it was passion for staying in 😳

I have to say though, I have every respect for the views of Leave voters who had thought it through and concluded that leave was the best option – but there are a large number who haven’t thought it through and have just voted on gut instinct, “had a punt” etc.

To a scientist with a vested interest and reasonably good knowledge of the benefits and drawbacks of the EU, this was deeply frustrating.

I must now declare my intolerance of wilful ignorance, British/English nationalism/jingoism, racial discrimination, scare-mongering, hypocrisy and prejudice.
Stupidity is slightly different, as the stupid may not be able to do anything about it.

It’s the wilful ignorance bit – listen to the arguments and reject them by all means, that’s the foundation of democracy. Taking a view of fwk it were off anyway isn’t going to lead to better democracy or to repairs the rifts between, let’s face it, two almost equal halves of the population.

Country full of fwkwits

As posted above – Chavs Charter 🙁

Most people too stupid to be allowed to vote

I posted way ^^^^^, that I wondered whether Boris was Dave’s stooge and they’d cut a deal on the leadership.

Long way to go yet to see a result and I won’t believe it until I see it. To my mind, did Boris and Gove do a bung on Tuesday? Boris was utterly unconvincing in the debate – came across as a lightweight against Khan, O’Grady and especially Davidson, Farron skewered Gove on “experts”, to the point that he even apologised.

I thought they put down their weapons…

Irrespective of the result, I’d sincerely hope for a major rethink of our society and democratic values and process.

Some truly despicable aspects of British life have been laid bare, including the naked ambitions of supposedly mainstream politicians who conveniently ignored the fact that neo-nazis were doing their bidding.

– FPTP – I know, we had a referendum on this, but it was half hearted / half arsed. Maintaining the status quo with the current Westminster set up is a disservice to the Nation. I’m pretty confident UKIP’s vote would drop off. It’s a protest vote against a system that doesn’t work. The likes of LibDems, Greens, SNP and Plaid have shown themselves capable to work together with others. I don’t feel that UKIP would be well suited to that sort of politics, so their role in any sort of coalition is unlikely to be constructive (& therefore, short lived)

– Political “marketing” – the rules on this utter bollocks had to be tightened up. So much at stake over today’s vote. Utter disgrace

– Broadcasting balance. UKIP have been allowed to dominate this debate for this vote and at the GE. Farage hasn’t even got a seat. THEY ARE NOT ONE OF THE MAJOR PARTIES – FFS STOP TREATING THEM LIKE THEY ARE 👿 TBH, the broadcasters treated the “schism” in the out vote as if there were three parties – here’s and intervie with VoteLeave, here’s an interview with Remain and here’s an interview with Nige the racist…

– Nut jobs. FFS, let’s shut off the oxygen / sunlight / toxic political & social environment that gives the right wing extremists any sort of platform. I don’t believe in censorship, so this has to be a case of exposing them for what they are.

Let’s not give these taunt twunt any more platform – the BBC has excelled itself in promoting UKIP this EUref and last GE. They need to be exposed as the nasty little minority that they are

Michael Frost, who is a leading Ukip politician in Bristol and former councillor for the party, made the comments in a group email thread sent to local councillors, The Bristol Post reports. Local resident and family centre worker Ahmedhakim Jahad emailed the politicians to mark Ramadan, quoting a passage of the Koran which reads: “Blessed is the month of Ramadan. It is the month of prayer and guidance, discipline and tolerance, repentance and charity.”

In response, Mr Frost reportedly wrote back: “Tell this to all the innocent people you and your type have murdered. Shame on you and the bastard scum who kill in the name of Islam.”

From Indy link

ETA – damn spellchecker – doesn’t know what a TWUNT is

Can we leave this word play thinG T his is a serious issue…

I’d actually like the law to be changed to stop these blatant untruths. In professional life people are bound by the code of conduct of their professional institutions as well as by the letter of the law and various guidelines.

This does not apply to politicians. By all means allow them to bullshit about their future plans, but it’s about time this “lie and lie enough it becomes true” approach was stopped.

I’d personally like to see BJ, Gove, Farage etc sued and taken to the cleaners. Not for I’m being vindictive (although that would be the cream on top), but because that is what any other professional risks when they start to deliberately lie and mislead

Can we leave this word play thinG T his is a serious issue…

I’d actually like the law to be changed to stop these blatant untruths. In professional life people are bound by the code of conduct of their professional institutions as well as by the letter of the law and various guidelines.

This does not apply to politicians. By all means allow them to bullshit about their future plans, but it’s about time this “lie and lie enough it becomes true” approach was stopped.

I’d personally like to see BJ, Gove, Farage etc sued and taken to the cleaners. Not for I’m being vindictive (although that would be the cream on top), but because that is what any other professional risks when they start to deliberately lie and mislead

was it the daily mail?

It was the bilingual version of the Vote Leave flyer that has upset Nissan, GE, Vauxhall and Unilever. They can take legal action because of the unauthorised use of their brand image.

We can only mark “x” – which is not enough if the “x”es are being marked on the basis of false information. There should be a mechanism for politicians to be called to account – and not just the ballot box

an say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.

You do realise that sounds very similar to the chap who had a recent visit to the Old Bailey???

The generation who fought in WW2 were fighting for their mates, their families and for change to the “old order”. Very few fought for “King and Country” – and they voted for social change as soon as they got home. The lack of “peace dividend” for Churchill in the post war election captured exactly the mood of the country.

Invoking false societal memories of a war that took place over 70 years ago is jingoistic and disingenuous

Nothing then
👿

About time that was changed. BS for aspirations and what they claim they’ll do is one thing. Lies and distortion of current / recent fact should not be allowed.

“It’s always been like that” isn’t good enough

And to clarify, no I’m not talking about the normal politicians shiny BS type stuff that you get at General Elections, I’m talking about the completely deceitful mis-truths that sit behind and out of sight of each claim 🙁

what if they are not too bright – the Gamma, Delta and Epsilon classes ?
Are they just screwed then ?

Intelligence isn’t as important as attitude – there are plenty of examples of successful people who are not academically “bright”. The rest – well cruise through school, don’t give a shit, regard ignorance as a virtue and vilify any kid who has some get up and go (subjects, sports, music, extra curricular).

Any kid that shows what they can do gets cut down by their peers. Nothing to do with the EU, nothing to be solved by target driven education problems. This is a good old fashioned British hang up. What’s needed to solve it is inspiration and self belief. It’s a fear of failure and lack of self confidence issue. Trouble is, 10 yrs after school they realise there in a shit spot with no way out

Chewy – us Brits are suspicious of strong leaders… They tend to lead folks to dark corners where we’d prefer not to follow. Cromwell was probably ours, and since then history has had the peoples of these islands having to put down our work tools and get involved in sorting out other country’s “strong leadership” problems…

(And that’s way more than enough jingoistic tripe from me)

This whole mobility thing is just not good for lower skilled workers unless you are condemming them to a life of exploitation at the hands of corporations/capitalism and perpetual renting as they have to chase jobs.

Sorry – the low skilled have to stop being low skilled… Globalisation, not the EU, demands it. That means that out UK politicians have to sort out education and training (no EU interference there – just Gove 😉 )

Wilson’s “White heat of technology” speech was 53 years ago, but we still aren’t equipping our school leavers for our post industrial world where there are no well paid jobs for life. My son did his last GCSE exam today. Despite attending a relatively good school, he reckons over half just don’t give a fwk.

Sorry, EU immigration, Polish plumbers, Romainian cleaners etc – just an excuse for many.

And we’re not very nice to pensioners, either 🙁

And £600k to give back to a (former???) BNP member…

3rd biggest Vote Leave donor linked to BNP – but hey, we’re not racists

Oh dear, Mr Gove…

Form an orderly queue at the lawyers???

John Barnes responds to the Brexit supporter claim…

hankfully out in the real world in the U.K. it is not the huge problem that you are making out.

So, why are voters so drawn in by a racist politician??? If not a “real world problem” now, then it certainly will be if Farage gets near the levers of power…

And, please answer this – why has an MP been murdered and a leading Muslim politician massively abused (with race / religious hate comments)?

Funnily enough I bet most of you live out in the suburbs well away from much diversity. Laughable.

Former pit village with a fair few social ills…

I wouldn’t want to be reminded of things I did as a teenager – but then, I’m not a politician…

Farage marches through Sussex singing Hitler Youth songs

Abuse directed at Warsi

Low

This, particularly unpleasant:

One message read: “typical MUSLIM ! Lie ,cheat,lie ,cheat ,lie ,good job your in a country like the UK otherwise you’d be stoned by now FACT

Who gives a monkeys about £:€, apart from holidays / folks with multiple homes.

£:$ is what effects our trade / competitiveness / prices

rkk01 – “from a friends FB share”
. . .The source of all credibility. Silly.

Silly me.

I thought I’d be honest about where I got it from – but of course, that’s not the game here is it…

I actually read the content and thought – yep, that’s a good summary.

As others have said, feel free to challenge the factual content – as there’s not much point challenging the source because I’ve been honest about where it came from

Gove on Radio 4 this am – sticking fingers in ears going la la la to the market forecasts of a 15% Sterling drop on Friday 🙁

What are they on.
At least have the credibility and conviction in their views to say “it’s going to be a bit shit for a while*, but we regard that as a price worth paying to ‘take back control'”.

Just dismissing the views of almost every expert is just delusional.
Farage is was the same on R4 yesterday – sound bites from gobshites

Charlatans and snake oil salesmen

From a friends FB share:

I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.

I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.

Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:

It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.

Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11620356/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html )
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/immigration-could-overwhelm-britain-says-pro-brexit-minister-andrea-leadsom

Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members – in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s – but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?

Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.

Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.

Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…

What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version – telling called “rights and responsibilities” – which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.

Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.

So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.

Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:

Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.

Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?

Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…

Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.

Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the **** never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html )

Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.

Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.

And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg

Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.

Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject” which he clarified as “all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”

Lie #9 [Special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?

So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.

Apologies for the omission. Not all of leave is racist , some is and some is not. I dont think its helpful, in general, to call leave racist nor is it helpful to deny its there for at least some of the supporters/campaigners.

Tory MP (Jenkin?) on Ch4 News tonight was pushed on this – and he admitted that he found the UKIP poster racist. Quite a thing to say on camera, and it only came out after the Labour MP clarified that she wasn’t calling him racist, just elements that had attached to the Brexit side of the campaign

chewkw – genuinely trying to be helpful here. Sounds like someone is bullshitting your mates. AFAIK EU influence on our immigration policy / controls is limited to the free movement of EU citizens. If your friends are non-EU then I can only see that the issues they are having are with UK immigration, not EU.

In the 10 years I’ve been with my current company I have worked with (at least / top of my head):
British
Australian
New Zealand
South African
Canadian
French
Dutch
Belgian
Irish
Polish
Italian
Spanish
American
Iraqi

And probably a few more besides. A good mix of EU and non EU.

@molgrips

#What GCSE average points score for voting?

The only barriers … EU employment rules!

sounds more like UK immigration rules to me