That's a pisspoor defence imo, and one which I doubt would have much success in a court of law.

Why do people so often tag stupid bits on to their arguments like…

"and one which I doubt would have much success in a court of law."

…as if they mean something.

We were nearly having an interesting discussion there. No need to start adding waffle.

But just to take it seriously for a second, you're suggesting that the Lib Dems could be taken to court for expressing support for our armed forces are you? Because that is the only thing I think you could take issue with them for.

I'm not sure whether you disagree with what I said about the LIb Dem position or whether you just don't understand what I said.

If you think that the Lib Dems have ever supported the principle of war in Iraq, maybe you could offer a bit of evidence? I've never heard them express that opinion.

By far and away the best way to "minimise the loss of lives on both sides" was to cease military action.

But that wasn't going to happen was it?

That's what I mean about pragmatism – dealing with things the way they are, not the way you would like them to be.

They had a program of opposition before the war started because there was still a chance of avoiding war.

Once the war had started, they came to the decision that there was NO CHANCE of stopping it, in which case the best available choice was to support those actually taking part.

That is not hypocrisy, it is changing the policy to meet changed circumstances.

You may disagree with what they did, but it wasn't unprincipled.

No, just this bit.

the LibDems pledged that if the final conclusion was war, then they would fall in line and fully back it

You make it sound like they changed their stance on the justification of the action, which they didn't.

What they did do, once we (as a Nation) were committed to the war, was to support the military in carrying out their task to the best of their ability – to minimise the loss of lives on both sides.

Peace and social justice, tempered by pragmatism.

Unlike the Tories of course, who just let the wool be pulled over their eyes from the off.

Well ernie, you seem to have a better grasp of the affair than allthepies or backhander.

I don't quite see the Lib Dem position the way you do, but that wasn't really the point I was questioning.

What I took issue with was that allthepies said

The people have voted against illegal wars costing 100,000 lives

– with the implication being that the strong vote for the Tories was a vote against the war

– or that the Tories hadn't been implicit in the decision to go to war.

Maybe you'd like to give us another essay on why that position is such a crock?

So by voting for a party that supported the war, "the People" were making a clear protest against it?

Hmmmm….

Not sure I see how that works quite as easily as you backhander

No I don't, but I'm not the one who said

The people have voted against illegal wars costing 100,000 lives

You did.

But then when I try to ask you how you came to that view you don't seem to be able to justify it.

I think that if "the People" really were voting against the Iraq war, then they wouldn't have voted Tory in such big numbers.

Come on, explain your position.

So you don't have all the answers then?

So, allthepies, in your version of reality, how come the Lib Dems didn't fall for the lie?

allthepies

The people have voted against illegal wars costing 100,000 lives

How quickly they forget…

Instead of just making stuff up, allthepies, go back and look at the news before the start of the Iraq war. You will see that the Tories supported the war.

The only major party that was against the war was the Lib Dems.

Stop revising history to suit your prejudices.

If you think the result/system isn't fair here's a chance for you to make your voice heard:

takebackparliament.com[/url]

does she know you have posted this here and are discussing it with complete strangers?

This doesn't really matter unless….

Would it be a good or bad idea for her to read this?

…she reads it. Which (IMHO) could do no good and might be bad.

Seems there are strong points made for each side of the debate and quite a balanced view. She may get something from it even if it is just a sense of how strongly you feel and how messed up your mind is at the moment.

There are no strong points on either side because (IMHO) it's not something you can rationalise (although it's funny how many of the women who have commented seem to be suggesting that it can be 😐 ?)

And I don't think there's any evidence that your mind is "messed up" – that kind of suggests that you should be able to see a clear way ahead, but maybe you won't.

On other hand she may take offence at your personal issues being dragged round the internet

She might. Which is why you should keep it to yourself… Oh, whoops!

For me the fact that you have opened up your feelings on here so much speaks volumes about what a mess you are in at the moment

Don't get too hung up about how you feel. In the words of St Anna Rayburn "you can only do what you can do"

They need to put the differences aside and sort it out asap or markets could go either way.

Markets shmarkets.

What do you actually mean – "markets could go either way" – psychobabble crap.

egardless of how any tory administration actually runs the country in that period ? You actually want the country to fail over that period just to get the tories out ? Isn't that the "old politics" your man kept banging on about ?

Well it depends what you think the options are – realistically.

I happen to think that any party would have a tough time in Govt over the next couple of years, so the least worst option would be what I've outlined.

But if you like I could pretend that I think there is an option for the Tories to do really really well for the country and wish for that.

There, is that better?

Its about Labour not Gordon Brown…we're not USA voting for a president.

Pity no one told Gordon Brown that. I think the presidential style of politics is part responsible for their demise.

I see that Cameron has now picked up the poison chalice.

He won't get Clegg to drink though.

It'll be a minority Govt, not a coalition, then the Tories will crash and burn in a year or two (I hope).

chakaping, you can be first after me.

We owe the same sort of money as Greece FFS and like it or not we are going have to make cuts. Full stop.

Gosh, we've got 6 times their population and 6 times their GDP and we owe the same as them – that does sound bad.

Ha ha ha – best response I've heard so far – just some punter on 5 LIve:

Strip out Scotland, Wales and about 8 million people on the public payroll and Cameron has a clear majority!

MSP, are you really a Member of the Scottish Parliament?

The problem with proportional representation though is that it would probably lead to more hung parliaments.

That's the whole point really. It means you don't get mad policies like the Poll Tax or the Invasion of Iraq brought in because of the ideology of the PM.

Clegg lost his way on his immigration & European policies

Actually I think the Lib Dems are ahead of their time on immigration, but probably didn't explain themselves well enough.

I thought it was the low point of the debates for the Lib Dems when Cameron and Brown both agreed that the Lib Dem "amnesty" for immigrants was a bad idea. Clegg should have rebutted that much harder given that that isn't the Lib Dem policy.

In fact the Lib Dems are the only party to have grasped the nettle on immigration by accepting that there is no way that we are ever going to get rid of long term illegal immigrants, given that we just don't know who they are or where they live and work.

The vast majority of immigrants to the this country are from within Europe and are legal immigrants, not illegal ones.

It would be rude to allow the Lib-dems to form any government considering the amount of votes that they actually mustered.

Come on! Just under 23% – between 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 of the people don't count?

If there is one single conclusion from this election it is that there is no place for adversarial politics in this country today.

What's so bad about people negotiating big decisions anyway?

Yep,

Tories form minority Govt.

Everyone sees that Cameron is worse than Brown.

Another election next year with a different Labour leader.

Electoral reform is on the agenda with a Labour win or another hung Parliament.

Another hung Parliament with Labour back in the driving seat.

Electoral reform.

We all live happily ever after.*

*Assuming nothing important happens in the rest of the world to change things here.

And Scotland should be given independence?

We'll see tomorrow benji!

CG, did you not read the recent stay-at-home dad thread (also started by gnarman, so maybe they have thought about it)? – here

There are actually quite a lot of us on here, but even amongst those who aren't I think your generalisation doesn't stand up these days. Not amongst my friends anyway.

Yay, Lib Dems sweep to power with an overall majority!

Interesting how the votes on here do not agree with the votes on my anon poll above

Or indeed with any other poll, full stop. That's why I quite like this forum.

(And BTW I'm not convince that all 7 BNP voters are taking your poll seriously)

Haven't bothered to read all the other stuff as this is about as personal a decision as you both will ever be faced with.

You could be screwed which ever way it goes.

She might terminate and you'll leave her.

She might terminate then resent you later for not stopping her.

She might have the kid and resent it.

She might have the kid and resent you.

She might have the kid but something else will lead you to leave them both.

Or

She might terminate and you'll carry on as before.

She might have the kid and you'll all be happy.

(Has anyone else read "When a Monster is Born" BTW?)

My only advice would be that the order of things happening should be that you discuss the options as much as you can. Then she has to make the decision whether to terminate. Then you have to make your decision and either accept things as they are or leave. But don't let your decision eat you up.

ourkidsam

Have a look back. druidh fixed one error, but I think you've been disenfranchised. You may need to vote again.

nickc and nickegg (no relation surely?) seem to have posted simultaneously – so I'm correcting it.

Labour 14
Conservative 6
Lib Dems 30
Green 2
Plaid Cymru 1
UKIP 0
BNP 2
NF 0
Respect 0
SNP 4
Spoiled/Void Ballot 2
Monster Raving William Hill Loony Party 0
Militant Greens for Clean and Tidy yet Independent and Frightfully Middle-Class Scotland 1

Not wishing to throw doubts on my impartiality, but I slso got the distinct impression that STW was a hornets nest of Toryboys!

Maybe they're just more desperate to share their opinions (in my opinion).

Just to be clear. You do all know that this isn't the ACTUAL VOTE don't you?

I hope there's no one here (well very few anyway) who haven't actually voted in real life.

And for that matter, what about the rest of you? Come on, get a move on – the polls close at 10 p.m.

I really hope duntmatter is prepared to sit all day monitoring this!

Nu Labour 8
Cunservative 2
Lib Dems 15
Green 0
UKIP 0
BNP 1
Respect 0
SNP 1

Actually Junkyard, I will be voting Lib Dem. We already have an incumbent Lib Dem MP who seems quite good except on a couple of misguided local issues such as wanting to build Sandford a bypass and allow hoards more tourists into the Isle of Purbeck in the summer.

But I've always voted Lib Dem, even when I've lived in constituencies where they didn't have a chance.

In the local elections I will either be voting UKIP or spoiling my ballot paper as the incumbent Lib Dem is an idiot – I count either as a protest vote and I can't bring myself to vote Tory (vapid, brash, thick) or Labour (moribund).

However, as I look into my crystal ball, do I see your pencil hovering near the Green Party candidate?

Come off it TooTall. Computers have revolutionised the working environment beyond recognition in the last 40 years.

My mum used to be a filing clerk. So if someone wanted a record, you had to put in a request, she'd walk through the document store, fish it out and take it up to you. Now you just click. Likewise if I want to send money round the world etc etc etc etc etc etc

….. or if you want to waste half your day hanging around on internet forums.

I thought I might just spice the thread up a bit…

In case anyone thought it was boring.

Hey everyone, guess who I'm voting for?

Don't forget to check back here regularly for possible updates.

You really will be astounded when you find out who it is.

No, really.

I'm not going to give the game away with too many clues, except that it will be someone from one of the main parties.

I like this game. It's very exciting.

Pics now available – searchable by rider number – at http://www.rightplacerighttime.co.uk

I've had back trouble also diagnosed as muscular, when I lifted something heavy. As in your case I was told to stay active and take ibuprofen. It was bad enough that I could hardly walk.

Unofficially (and I'm not recommending this, though maybe someone with medical knowledge can comment) I was told by a friend who is a physio, to take a fair bit more than the recommended dose of ibuprofen (i.e. 1 gm) straight away when I got the pain, + about 400 mg 3 times a day for the next couple of days. I was told this would be unlikely to cause me any problems over such a short period, though I believe ibuprofen is not recommended if you have stomach problems.

Anyway, I took the ibuprofen and soldiered on, and essentially I was fine within a couple of days.

orena45

Often when someone says I must have got an awesome photo of them, it turns out I haven't as they were doing something that I wasn't expecting – however if you can't find your pic when I put the event live, let me know and I'll see if I can find the image of your back wheel or whatever I got in my trash file.