It seems simple that there’s some on here who like to drive fast using the prevailing road conditions rather than the posted speed limit to judge how fast to safely make progress. Whatever the law says life is just like that I’m afraid. In the same way that good skiers naturally ski faster than poor skiers, and good cyclists cycle faster than poor cyclists. Adding more regulations simply frustrates those people who feel perfectly safe doing what they are already doing. In the same way as the faster driver needs to make allowances for the ditherers, the indecisive and the downright slow, the slower drivers need to appreciate that others feel confident to drive faster than they are and with a good level of safety in doing so. Right or wrong, we all need to get used to it.

but someone was suggesting that it was a positive for safety to drive a car to it’s edge, on the logic that you / they then knew where that edge was.

That was me. Where though did I ever mention practicing finding those limits on the public road?

Thank you. Yet another example of ignoring common sense and simple logic in order to justify an unjustifiable position. It’s blatant common sense that speed limits prevent accidents by enforcing standardised driving behaviour, it’s the same principle as everyone driving on the same side of the road. Although to use the warped logic of the anti-limit brigade, this shouldn’t be necessary either as long as everyone has done a course in advanced avoidance of oncoming traffic.

Absolute lunacy – don’t try and stretch the truth. All we are saying is that increasing driver training plays the biggest part in road safety, not rules or speed limits.

Just look at India (or many other countries). There are still plenty of rules of the road, plenty of speed limits in place and mostly the speeds are far slower than the UK yet there are many more accidents. Okay so the poor roads and standards of some vehicles play their part, but the main cause for their huge fatality rate is poor driving and poor driver training.

ahwiles – Member

i’m suggesting that it’s safer, and easy to stick to speed limits.

you’re asking me to not drive.

which one’s ridiculous?

To be honest with the lack of interest you have shown in improving your own driving skills the I’d probably prefer it if you didn’t drive anywhere near me. You may think you’re a good driver because you passed your test but all that confirms is that you have reached the very minimum standard at some point in the dim and distant past. Do yourself and the rest of us a favour and at the very least, get yourself a refresher lesson.

Like I’ve said before, not breaking the limit does not make you a safe driver or even a safer driver. I have seen many more cases of incredibly dangerous driving at speeds way below the limit than I have above it. Naturally, less skilled drivers tend to drive slower so maybe this is why? Slower though does not make the roads safer for the rest of us if they do something stupid, even at very low speed.

ahwiles – Member

rebel12 – Member

with the extra driver training I’ve done over the years then yes, there’s probably a good chance I’m quite a bit safer than you at any speed.

well done you.

i’m sure you’re an excellent driver, do you mind keeping your exuberance to the track?

In a similar vein I could say, do you mind keeping your low skilled ass off the road. See it sounds just as ridiculous doesn’t it?

Oh dear, oh dear…. so by that logic, by going faster than the speed limit, you’re actually a safer driver? Seriously?

I don’t know your driving history so please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d hazzard a guess with the extra driver training I’ve done over the years then yes, there’s probably a good chance I’m quite a bit safer than you at any speed.

Do an IAM driving course (or similar) and you will see how little you currently know about safety or driving. It opened my eyes (and my mind) and no doubt it might do the same for you.

ahwiles – Member

it’s a limit, not a target.

Yes but often the speed limits set bear no relationship to the road conditions or the actual improvement in vehicle technology in the last 50 years since limits were introduced. I’d far rather (and believe it is far safer) to take road and traffic conditions into account when I choose what an appropriate speed is – not blindly drive around believing that so long as I stick to at or below the posted limit then that makes me a safe driver, as so many on here seem to think.

ahwiles – Member

of course i have, but i don’t try and defend it as ‘safe and appropriate’.

I’m also not defending braking the limit. It’s just there are places and situations where it is perfectly safe to do so.

no, i’d say he’s breaking the speed limit. and that it’s the thin end of a nasty wedge.

Have you ever broken the speed limit Ahwiles?

most of the posters are suggesting that people who talk about things like ‘appropriate safe speeding’ are loons.

Would you suggest that an advanced driver doing 90mph on a quiet motorway with good visibility, good weather a well maintained car that’s capable of 150mph + is driving like a loon?

Personally I’d have more respect for them if they just came out and admitted that they don’t give a sh*t for anyone else and that risking death and injury to others is a price worth paying for their ‘fun’. Trouble is they won’t admit that cos they still see themselves as ‘responsible’ road users and they crave acceptance by everyone else, hence the ridiculous justifications

Personally I’d have more respect for your opinion if you’d actually looked into taking some advanced driving lessons and tried to improve your road skills. Or are you one of these people who believe that the minimum standard is fine. I’ve passed my test, I never drive fast so by default I must be a safe driver. Not taking extra training pretty much sums you up a someone who couldn’t care less about their standard of driving in my book.

If you have done some advanced training then I’m happy to take this back. Otherwise maybe for your own and all of our sakes – perhaps you ought to get some, or at least try some before trying to brand us as reckless hoons. I thought I was a good driver until I did a fast road course. That made me realise how much I could actually improve and how much I still had to learn. Heaven forbid you might find that you actually start to enjoy driving.

Yeah, you sound like a really safe driver. I really hope you never drive anywhere near where my kids ride their bikes. How about, you don’t drive close enough to the limit that you need to slow down, or take it to the track?

No chance of driving near your kids I’m afraid – I try and avoid driving through council estates if possible 😉

molgrips – Member

But if you’re going to be driving fast

Er yeah the whole point of this discussion is that you really ought not to be.

Err, I know but like I’ve said I do often exceed the speed limit. I enjoy driving and enjoy driving quickly. I’m not talking about racing or acting like a dick, but making smooth and fast progress in a car I enjoy driving and when conditions allow with good observation plus consideration and respect for other road users.

Generally I’ll drive to whatever is appropriate for the conditions rather that what the posted speed limit is. Sometimes that’s way under the speed limit, sometimes quite a bit over.

I’ve tried driving more slowly but I’m afraid to be honest I really struggle not to drive quickly sometimes. So I though I may as well increase my skill base to make the margin of safety that bit better.

Good observation and applying some common sense to where I drive quickly is probably why I’ve still got a clean license (touch wood).

I agree with most of your post rebel12 but I question the emphasis on talent. Surely the trick is to not put yourself in a situation where you need ‘talent’?

I have no idea how hard I can corner in either of my cars – I can’t see how I need to know?

No you’re right, most people will never get near the limits of their cars (and it’s probably not a good idea to go too close to them) on a public road. But if you’re going to be driving fast, in bad weather conditions, or driving a twitchy RWD car then it helps to know how your car handles on the limit – to recognise when you’re close to it so you can slow down before it’s too late. I didn’t realise this as a teenager and lost the back end of my car several times on wet roundabouts, spinning full 360’s, luckily with no damage to anything. If I’d have had more talent at the time (rather than blind bravery/stupidity) then I’d probably have been able to recognise that I was driving way too fast for the conditions or done something to correct the slide before it became a problem. Maybe talent was the wrong choice of word – knowledge and experience might be more appropriate.

Ok I should clarify. I meant the surf-mat school of driver training ie ‘I’ve done the police course now I can go as fast as I like’. Training drivers to be safe, aware and responsible is indeed extremely valuable as you say.

It’s a shame hardly anyone does it

Mol, sorry for being quick to have a go but I thought you were just being dismissive of all driver training.

There’s quite a few people who do it – the IAM for starters. I also did a course with High Performance Club[/url] which was very insightful and a bit more focused for those that want to drive fast but safely than the AIM course. These are geared toward road rather than track driving.

I’m never going to say I don’t break the speed limit – I do, often and intensionaly when the roads are quiet. It’s just that if I’m going to be doing it then I wanted to do it with as much training and knowledge as I could get to make things far safer for all concerned.

Completely different attitude I think to a boy racer (and I used to be one) who just drives everywhere at max speed, but with very little talent or margin for error, pi**ing everyone else off in the progress.

The courses have taught me a lot but most of all that despite doing the courses, I still have so much more to learn.

All this guff about driver training and car handling is total bollocks. Testosterone fulled alpha male bollocks.

Clearly spoken by someone who actually knows very little about driving. Empty vessels make the most noise and all that . . . .

sbob – Member

sbob – Member

And it’s cheap too.
Institite of Advanced Motorists

Go on, give it a click. Chances are you’ll be able to find a group close to you and more often than not you’ll be able to go out with an observer for no greater cost than your petrol for an initial assessment of your driving.

With so many lambasting the driving of others, it’s great to see the number of comments and questions from those posters regarding the above.

Oh.

Agree, I’ve done the full course and the first assessment was free. Seems too many people on here who want to tell everyone else what they can and can’t do on the road yet turn their noses up at doing some further training to actually improve their own driving. Crazy!

If you want a fast All Mountain board that can handle pretty much everything then the K2 Slayblade is an awesome choice (if you can still find one). It’s a flat base board so a good compromise between camber and rocker. I weigh 85kg too, am 6′ 1″ and went with a 158 which is ample.

I’ve ridden one for the last 3 years and nothing else I’ve ridden comes close for ability and fun. Very fast base on the board which will mean that you will cruise over most flats with ease. Stable at speed, easy to run fast and flat and a real weapon off piste.

Downsides are that it’s a fairly stiff board so not that easy to butter, boxes are fine, rails okay but not as good as a flexible park board. But if these are the only issues and you mostly ride All Mountain then I’ll happily live with that. No board will do everything well – there’s always a compromise somewhere.

Also heard from asking around this year that the YES ‘The Greats’ is an awesome all mountain board and comes highly rated. Batallion Omni also a good board, a bit cheaper than the other two but also a good ride with the Triple base tech. More of a directional board than the other two though so great for the powder but not one for riding switch.

rebel12 » Idiots are easy to spot

Yup, usually doing 150mph on their sport bikes, under the illusion they are Gods….

Inclined to generally agree with that – then again on an empty motorway with good visibility, the right training and a bike/car that’s more than capable then the risk could be a lot less than you think. Illegal – certainly, Dangerous – not necessarily.

dazh – Member
Ah! At last you mentioned the ‘fun’ part. So how would you separate the ‘safe’ people having fun from the idiot boy racers? And do you really think the public roads are the correct place for this type of fun?

God you’re a killjoy – Yes FUN, what’s wrong with that? Having fun driving means that I enjoy learning more about it, learning more about car control, general driving awareness, what’s safe and what’s not etc.

Idiots are easy to spot – but unfortunately we need more actual traffic police on the road to do that, not yellow speed camera boxes that can’t tell a good driver from a bad driver.

There’s plenty of people on the who don’t ever learn anything after passing their test. The have never explored the limits of a car etc. Unfortunately although they may never exceed the speed limit these people tend to come unstuck in a tricky situation (when driving in snow for example). They lack the skills and tend to panic when something unexpected happens.

dazh – Member

Come on then, what is your alternative? Spit it out boy.

Err, just relax and drive a bit slower? If you have to be somewhere at a certain time, leave a bit earlier (only a bit, cos we all know driving fast doesn’t save you much time anyway)?

Long distance it can save quite a bit of time and it can also be good fun and safe on the right road, helping keep concentration levels high and avoiding daydreaming.

Don’t understand some of the posts on here – if you want to dawdle please go ahead, but don’t then whinge when people who can happily go faster overtake you in a safe and considerate manor.

dazh – Member

rebel12, you’re still completely missing the point. The fact that you can drive more safely at speed than the next person is completely irrelevant. You simply can’t have one set of drivers driving to completely different rules than others. The speed limits are there not just to improve safety through limiting the severity of crashes, but also to provide a standard environment where all road users know what to expect.

I have an idea though. What about allowing people like yourself to opt out of speeding laws in exchange for an automatic 10 year prison sentence if you’re involved in a crash? Somehow I don’t think you’d go for that though.

But people do already drive to a different set of rules. Some drive far too slow to be safe, others too fast for the conditions? Not sure what you’re trying to get at here? All I’m saying is that if you’re going to drive faster than the posted limit then extra training will make you a far safer driver. Any many limits are already artificially low – e.g. the 70mph limit of a motorway when traffic is light. That was set in the mid 60’s when cars were positively death traps compared to today’s vehicles.

They are thinking of upping the limit to 80mph on motorways soon. Will that then make it suddenly safe in your eyes just because it’s now legal?

Oh and why not have different rules whilst we’re at it. Perhaps for example if you’d completed an Advanced Driving course and retests every 5 years then you might get a special ‘Red Numberplate’ which means that you can drive at a faster limit than people who haven’t passed the course. Could make sense and it might improve the uptake of further driver training making the roads safer for all.

I still wonder what it would have been like if I’d chosen to go on a “speed awareness” course after the latter – I suspect I’d have had to force myself to keep quiet, and might have struggled if asked to admit that my driving was dangerous.

Don’t know the location but in all likleyhood not dangerous – just not legal. Some speed limits I would argue are innapropriately low. Often they are lowered by the local Council due to a serious accident at that location, whether that accident was caused be excess speed or not.

Similarly some speed limits are too high (e.g. NSL on a narrow, twisting country lane) or 30 past a school entrance.

Sorry meant IAM, not AIM. Sodding auto-correct.

dazh – Member

Driver training makes better drivers – simple. I can’t see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you’re not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

I completely agree. But you’re making a lot of assumptions about my driving. You see, like you, I am also a driving god (aren’t we all?). In fact I’m pretty sure I could get round a track faster than you. In fact I’m certain of it. However this willy waving is completely besides the point.

If you had asked the instructor on your advanced driving course if your new skills now allow you to drive faster than everyone else on public roads, what would have been his answer? I’m pretty sure I know what he/she would have replied.

Are you Jenson Button by any chance?

Where did I claim to be a ‘driving god’? If anything the AIM course highlighted areas where I needed to up my game – in particular observation and reading the road ahead.

AIM don’t condone or promote driving above the speed limit.

The “speed kills” mantra has been so successful in warning people of the dangers of speed that those people now equate driving within the speed limit with safe driving.

Couldn’t agree more. Read a statistic somewhere that excess speed was only a factor in around 7% of all accidents. Yet there seems many on here who treat speed as the holy grail when it comes to road safety. No wonder when the media, reliance on speed cameras to police the roads and ‘Speed Kills’ campaign seems to have brainwashed those who have little interest in driving besides getting from A to B.

In reality though I’m pretty sure it’s in-attention and poor driver skill/judgement that causes the vast majority of all accidents. Of course that’s a very difficult thing to measure so it’s far easier to demonize something that can be defined and then conveniently forget about the rest.

People have a lot to learn.

edlong – Member

Driver training may make better drivers, but the unintended consequence also kicks in when driver training makes people think that they are driving gods and needn’t bother about speed limits since they are now so well trained.

Have you done any extra driver training Edlong?

HoratioHufnagel – Member

Do you drive a 335d rebel12?

No – why?

Mr rebel12, I salute your intransigence (and your superior driving skills) in the face of logic and common sense. You are the very epitomy of someone who has constructed an entirely new form of thinking to justify their own unjustifiable actions. One day hopefully you’ll look back on this discussion and cringe with embarrassment at the arrogance of it all.

Almost can’t be bothered to respond to this but against my better judgement I’m going to. It’s ironic that you yourself can’t see someone elses point of view.

Driver training makes better drivers – simple. I can’t see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you’re not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

Additional driver training is available to everyone. Maybe if you took some then you might unlock a world of possibility and perhaps also unlock that closed mind of yours?

Rebel12 » So I think my standard of driving is way above average

And here lies the problem – everyone thinks they have 1337 skillz behind the wheel.

Yes but the courses I’ve done have me a better driver, in much the same way as taking piano lessons will make you a better player of the piano. It’s not rocket science you know. The courses have also made me a more considerate and observant driver – therefore safer whether traveling above or below the limit. I suggest you try some additional training yourself before tarring everyone who drives fast with the same brush.

It may *look* like safe overtaking opportunity for you in a 40mph limit, but what about the ‘speeder’ who’s doing 60mph+ in the other direction (towards you) ?

Yes but I’d never get into that situation because I would have already made allowances for someone (currently unseen) coming towards me over the limit in the opposite direction before starting any overtake manouvere. Similarly if I’d never go round a blind bend fast enough not to be able to stop in half of the distance visible because there might be a late overtaker still on the wrong side of the road just around the corner.

This is where driving a performance car helps – It gives you just that extra margin for error or safety factor to stop/react should you need it.

Forgot to add, that I’d never dream if exceeding limits in a built up or residential area, too risky. I’m talking about clear roads, good weather and visibility, low traffic volume etc. I also have plenty if consideration for other road users, particularly cyclists (being one myself), horses etc. Many others I’ve seen just barge right past – well within the speed limit I might add.

All this “inappropriate speed” stuff seems to be spoken by those who believe they have higher skillz levels than the rest of the populace. I’m as happy for the driving gods to be restricted as those with average skills.

But why, all restricting people does is create frustration and increased stress and tension on the roads. The likely outcome if this is more accidents not less. I must admit myself that I’ve had more close calls when pottering along within the limit than when driving intentionally fast. The brain switches off when you’re stuck to an artificially reduced limit. Not ideal but true.

I’ve done lots of extra training since passing my test. AIM, police type fast road training, observational training and a couple of track based handling sessions. So I think my standard of driving is way above average. Sure I still make the odd mistake but who doesn’t. The extra training, awareness of hazards combined with a high performance car with good handling and good brakes means that often I can drive above the posted limits completely safely whilst at the same time taking accounts if any harass that might be present. For someone who’s not had this training then these hazards might seem like unexpected events, but in reality 99% are totally predictable.

I fail to see why if conditions allow then a speed limit can’t be safely exceeded. We shouldn’t all have to drive to the lowest common denominator. Often I will get flashed when passing a slower driver even though an overtake is safe an legal. I think that slower drivers with less skill seem to think that everyone else should be brought down to their level. I don’t mind people driving slow. It’s a good chance for an overtake, but just because you want to drive slow, don’t assume that everyone else does too.

I’d recommend the extra training to anyone. Similarly I’d recommend to anyone to get a fast car, then you will appreciate the extra level of road holding and safety that can be achieved.

Sorry but using a mobile phone whilst driving is nothing like speeding. Using a mobile is a big distraction, whereas when I’m driving fast my full attention is on the road. Before anyone criticises people who speed, perhaps you should look at your own driving. If you can hold your hands up and say with honesty that you’ve newer strayed over the limit then fair enough. I doubt whether that’s the case though, and clearly if you’ve just strayed over the limit by accident rather than deliberately then you’re not paying enough attention when you drive.

deadlydarcy – Member

rebel12 – Member

Because we live in the UK (a free country), not the former USSR. Driving would turn into a dull, frustrating, monotonous and stressful chore with no one being able to develop the necessary driving skills to judge what is a safe speed for the conditions. Plus I’d never be able to have any fun on a deserted motorway or quiet country B road.

So you want to be able to break the speed limit when you want.

If road and traffic conditions outside of built up areas mean that it’s perfectly safe to do so then yes. And before you say ‘but what about the unexpected’ or ‘what about the group of cyclists around the blind corner’ – well that’s part of the skill of driving, to be able to anticipate this sort of thing and to slow right down to walking pace if necessary.

deadlydarcy – Member

mrlebowski
Nope.

Why not?

Because we live in the UK (a free country), not the former USSR. Driving would turn into a dull, frustrating, monotonous and stressful chore with no one being able to develop the necessary driving skills to judge what is a safe speed for the conditions. Plus I’d never be able to have any fun on a deserted motorway or quiet country B road.

impressive country house where he owns around 4 Classic Porches.

owns the porch but not the house?

Porsche 🙂

impressive country house where he owns around 4 Classic Porches.

Wow, I haven’t even got one porch on my house.

Did you miss the bit where I suggested calling the registered keeper?

Name + address + directory enquiries.

Great idea, will see if I can find out who it is.

It’s the B5 RS4 (6 cylinder).

The car should be free from any mechanical issues as it’s been fully serviced and checked out by a highly reputed RS specialist (3 weeks ago). I’ve phoned the said specialist and they have confirmed the cars recent condition and the work it’s had done. As far as they were concerned the car was A1.

The guy was quite open about the fact he was a part time trader so I don’t think he’s trying to hide anything? Also it’s not some back street deal – it’s being sold from his family address, an impressive country house where he owns around 4 Classic Porches.

The question is that how can I prove that it’s the guys to sell? How can I prove that he is entitled to sell it?

Forgot to ask, what sauce are you having with your steak?

Lucky you. It’s Salad and Cunnilingus Day tonight in our house 😕