Here’s how I see it:

So Scotland want more self control – great most people would say, sure, fantastic, go for it, we’ll support you.

Instead what seems to be happening is that AS and the SNP (seemingly by his demeanor on a massive personal power trip) are stirring up nothing more than trouble and bad feeling.

The UK Government (rightly and at the current will of the people as they have not yet voted for independence or any sort of pre-independence negotiations) won’t waste massive amounts of money and time negotiating before the result of any referendum is known, yet, are being goaded all the time by AS who makes increasingly louder noises like a spoilt child stuck in a trolley in the Tesco sweets aisle.

Eventually when AS’s claims become potentially unsettling for the UK as a whole the UK Government are forced to react. When that reaction is expressed as an opinion which AS does not agree with then the ‘English’ are accused of bullying, repression and scare tactics.

If independence goes ahead then the end result could be that an independent Scotland would not really be independent in the true sense of the word at all. They would have lost all of the significant benefits that come from being part of the Union whilst still being controlled by the UK (if they keep the pound), or by Germany, Brussels and the EU if they go the Euro route.

Surely any Scot not of the ‘FU’ mentality can see that for both sides, independence is not the way to go?

Hopefully the people of Scotland will vote NO for this badly through through scheme, which, once it’s put to bed will open the doors for further discussion of the more sensible option – greater self control and further devolution, which the rest of the UK would be no doubt be happy to support you achieving.

So to counter the idea that the UK government is a load of bullying English Conservative toffs, we get bullied by an English Conservative toff?

He’s just disagreeing with your point of view. It’s not BULLYING, it’s called having a DEBATE! Honestly, sometimes it’s no wonder the Scots get accused of having a huge chip on their shoulder.

Has anyone in the YES camp actually answered yet why Scotland would want to keep the UK pound, meaning that Scottish financial policy, interest rates and many other important decisions affecting Scotland would still be controlled from London? Surely this goes against everything that Independence stands for? Or would the SNP simply like to pick and choose the best bits of independence but still require lots of hand holding from the rest of the UK?

his is about the only thing the No camp has confirmed so far and like someone else has said there’s every chance the position will change in the event of a yes vote..

Unlikely to change on that one I’d think having stated their case so firmly. A YES vote also seems very unlikely.

I really believe that this is just a negotiating position the no campaign are adopting. It will be interesting to see what Osborne actually says.

Believe what you like but why would he say it if he didn’t mean it? This wasn’t said as part of a NO campaign, it was said to try and put straight the ever increasing bluster coming from the SNP camp who are doing all then can at the moment to stir up hatred of the UK Government in the belief that portraying the UK Government as a load of bully English conservative toffs will increase their vote.

Yeeaaaahhh lets **** the English . . . . . . and also **** ourselves at the same time with this whole sorry process.

So, still quite a lot of oil left then? And that’s before opening up the west coast that had been off limits due to Trident.

This is nothing more than a rumour dredged up by the YES campaign to suit their ‘oppressive English stance’. There is no confirmation that oil or gas do indeed exist in commercially viable quantities and it would seem that even if these rumours have substance that BP, a London based company who have allegedly completed a seismic survey would be the biggest beneficiary.

Gives us a nice bit of breathing room while the renewables industry gets online – Scotland has some of the best prospects for renewable energy in Europe.

This is true, but what is also true is that almost all of these resources lie in some of the most beautiful parts of the UK, valuable for tourism, fishing and wildlife. Would Scotland risk harming this by erecting wind turbines and building dams all over the place?

What should also be considered is the huge investment required to exploit these resources and the fact that most renewables companies are currently based overseas (the Danish being the biggest manufacturer of wind turbines for example). Huge amounts of outside and borrowed money will be required to develop Scotland’s own renewables industry. Whether outside investment is forthcoming (due to the huge uncertainty created should Scotland become independent) remains to be seen.

Absolutely no-one on either side of the argument is using “Scotland can’t afford it” as an argument any more. Its too easily shot down with, you know, numbers and facts and stuff.

Here is the FT’s recent take on it:

Here’s the oil industry’s take on it:

Well the facts are, that if Scotland keeps the pound (if the UK let them) then the UK will still be pulling most of the strings in Scotland (much like Germany is with Greece at the moment).

You really have to wonder if this whole independence thing is ‘cutting off the nose despite the face’. Scotland ditches all the benefits of being in a union yet still ends up (through monetary policy) being controlled by the rest of the UK. Alex Salmond really should have though this through properly – but then he probably has, since his sole mission seems to be to become President of Scotland. I bet he’d appoint himself the King of Scotland if he could 😆

A lot of contributers in this thread make their distain for Scotland so obvious that the abusive husband comparison, albeit in poor taste,has it nailed. I really am curious as to why there is so much venom

There’s no venom intended, any jokes or comments from my side are tongue in cheek. Take it how you want though? It’s just a lot of people on here seem to slate anyone putting forward a reasoned argument of why independence is a bad idea as somehow ‘having a dig at the poor Scots’. Interpret this as you will.

rebel12 – Member

But you can’t afford independence – that’s the whole point and there’s no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The ‘wish list’ just doesn’t stack up, simple as.

I guess this is exactly the sort of thing Grum doesn’t want me to rise to as it’s too obviously rubbish to even bother shooting down?

Why is it rubbish, because it doesn’t fit with your view of things? Do you really believe all the bulls**t spouted in the white paper? If this is wrong please enlighten us all as to where the money will come from to fullfil all the promises on the wishlist. I’m open ears 🙂

But I guess that’s just back to the failure to make a positive case for the union. In an attempt to tell us we can’t afford independence, inevitably you have to run down the positive contribution Scotland makes.

But you can’t afford independence – that’s the whole point and there’s no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The ‘wish list’ just doesn’t stack up, simple as.

The only way for Scotland to become independent is to borrow money – huge vast sums of money the like of which will simply stagger you. You’ll need at least the following:

A Scottish military, to fulfill your UN or NATO obligations (yes regardless of you views on this, it is required).

A full new currency system and all that entails.

To take on a portion of the UK debt, debt which you have helped to build so you should still pay for.

A full new welfare, tax, pensions, system.

A new or adapted health service.

A brace of embassies around the world.

To pay your subsidy to the EU (if you join) which would not be subject to the same EU rebate the UK currently enjoys.

A raft of new government, ministers, departments and agencies.

There’s loads more but obviously I can’t go on listing or we’d be here all day.

Who do you think will pay for the above? Now can you see why Alex Salmond is so keen to say “Yes we want to be an independent country, but yes UK we’d like to use your x,y,z etc” because clearly independence is a dream, which when you look at the actual figures just doesn’t stack up.

Haha, this is absolutely hilarious. Those ‘chip on the shoulder’ Scots that want independence, the freeedoooooommm to create a new country but at the same expect the UK to give them exactly all the bits of the current Union that they want but at the same time taking no responsibility for their share of the national debt? Pie in the sky Scotlanders!

Good on George Osbourne I say. If Scots want independence either do it properly or STFU! The Scots can’t reject the Union, but then expect to be supported by the Union!

One thing for sure if Scotland do vote YES is it’s going to be a right horrible mess to sort out, with the rest of the UK holding all of the cards. Even without taking on their share of the UK debt, the restructuring will cost Scotland billions and billions. Where will that money come from? Yes you’ve guessed it – more borrowing. Enough debt to saddle the Scots with an un-maneagable burden for generations to come. Scotland’s credit rating would almost certainly be on a par with a third world country shortly after independence. Ever wondered the real reason why the SNP want to keep monetary union?

Still, I say go for it – if that’s what you want 😆

I had to ask him if he wanted me to pop the bonnet for a look, he didn’t seem too bothered

Really, I wonder why? The chap sounds like a complete tool to be honest. You are admirable offering something to pay towards the repair costs (genuine or not). Why not just limit it to a goodwill gesture of say £500, take it or leave it. That sounds fair enough in my book. Otherwise you’ll open yourself up to a world of pain and ever increasing strife from this idiot. A sold as seen sale means it’s his problem not yours and the only comeback legally he would have would be for him to prove that you had deliberately lied about the cars condition – which you didn’t if you were not aware about the alleged problem.

Thought this was a mostly liberal forum? Then why all the haters of this young chap on here when he tries to do something different? Just shows how risk averse and soft we have become as a nation in general. Christ, there were career choices back in Victorian times e.g. slate quarrying, that carried as much risk as what this guy is doing!

a guarantee that taxes…will be set in line with the interests of the Scottish people

And that would be UP, UP an awful LOT if all the promises on the wish list are to be fulfilled.

Interesting that in the 2010 General Election then the voting as a whole in Scotland was as follows:

Labour – 42%
Lib Dems – 19%
SNP – 19%
Conservative – 17%

So almost as many Scots voted Conservative in 2010 as they did SNP?

Interesting also that there has been a Labour government in the UK for 13 years between 1997 and 2010.

So the Scots seem to have had what they wanted for the last 13 years, but as soon as one general election result goes not quite as they’d have liked then they throw all the toys out of the pram?

And therein lies the fundamental problem with an independent Scotland

I have no idea what your last sentence means. I wonder if you do.

It means that Alex ‘power trip’ Salmond seems to keep asking the UK if they can hold his hand throughout the whole process by giving continual feedback (and providing him much needed publicity) – rather than just getting on with doing it. Can see the same thing continuing to happen if Scotland goes independent since the rest of the UK will remain holding all of the trump cards.

Quit the hand holding, state your case, take the vote, make your mind up, YES or NO, get on with it, stop whinging, simple 🙂

Seems totally hypocritical to me that Salmond and the Yes campaign want a debate with Cameron? Surely Scottish independence means the exact opposite of this? And therein lies the fundamental problem with an independent Scotland.

The problem is simple Scots, either you want independence or you don’t. Once we’ve established that then we can have a debate on EU membership, currency, North Sea Oil etc.

Otherwise what do you suggest we do? Get all this sorted upfront at huge expense to the taxpayer only to have Scotland vote for no independence. What a huge wast of money and resource that would be at a time when austerity is needed.

The principle of independence surely is all about the grand plan to govern yourselves and control your own destiny as a Nation going forward? It’s not to pick and choose what you want or don’t want from the UK/EU and then see which way the wind is blowing come your day to vote on the issue?

The Scottish people voted in a majority SNP Government in Scotland. Part of their manifesto was to hold the referendum. Now, obviously not everyone who voted for the SNP wants independence, but the mandate is there for them to liaise with the Scottish Government. They should work with both sides to provide the data that both sides are asking for. I don’t have a problem with Westminster stating they are pro-union, but working against the process favours one side more than the other. I have a problem with that.

That may be the case but as we all know statistics can be spun in whatever way a politician want’s. I don’t see why the UK government should waste their time and funds entering into a costly and potentially damaging debate prior to a referendum result being in place. Like I said before it is up to Alex Salmond as the protragonist in this situation to supply the data for his pro-independence agenda, not the other way round.

It seems from the Moray survey posted before that Scottish support for independence is much higher in the most deprived areas and much less in the more affluent areas. Unfortunately if that’s the case I can see a lot of movement of the affluent or most highly qualified people out of Scotland and into the rest of the UK if independence does go ahead. Perhaps a similar kind of ‘brain drain’ as has happened in Irelend?

The fact that he hasn’t so far does not mean that the UK government should step in and make up a YES/NO case on his behalf.

No, of course it shouldnt, but if they’re asked to go and get figures or ask for advice they should do it as they represent the people asking instead of taking sides and refusing to play ball. If everything is as they say it is then it would help the No Campaign anyway.

Yes but the people in Scotland you are talking about do not know themselves yet who they want to be represented by, whether the UK Government or the SNP. So whom should the UK government represent right now when the Scots can’t even make up their own minds?

The UK government has publicly declared that they are pro-union since it’s clearly in the best interests of both parties (including the many Scots who will vote to stay in the Union). Do you have a problem with this?

until the Scots can first sort out their own identity issues.

And what would those be then?

Err, there would seem to be plenty of issues judging by the debate on this.

For all those thinking that the UK government should make it more clear on where Scotland stands prior to a vote then you seem to have forgotten the very first rule of negotiation – i.e. he who reveals his hand first enters the negotiation in the far weaker position.

Indeed, but surely it shouldn’t be for the UK Government to try and dictate the debate, it should be the Yes and No Campaigns. The UK Gov represents everyone in the UK as it stands, that includes everyone in Scotland, most of whom would like more concrete information.

It’s up to Salmond and his band of Braveheart wannabees to make a strong case for independance. The fact that he hasn’t so far does not mean that the UK government should step in and make up a YES/NO case on his behalf.

And anyway it seems like quite a few Anti English Scots simply want FREEDOOOOOOOMMMM! from the oppressors regardless of how the rational facts stack up, so detailed information would likely just fall on deaf ears in these cases.

Negotiations could have started years ago- but the UK government has declined. Almost as though they don’t want you to know the answers, eh? Ask who gains from the uncertainty.

Why?

For all those thinking that the UK government should make it more clear on where Scotland stands prior to a vote then you seem to have forgotten the very first rule of negotiation – i.e. he who reveals his hand first enters the negotiation in the far weaker position.

Salmond naively has already revealed his hand in the form of his ‘letter to Santa’ and as a result, despite all the ‘Braveheart Bluster’ Scotland is in a pretty weak position right now. So I suspect the UK government will simply sit tight until after the result of the vote.

Rightly so too. Don’t see why the rest of the UK should be wasting our time right now debating this until the ‘chip on the shoulder’ Scots can first sort out their own identity issues.

Great, that’s exactly the sort of investment the young families of the country need right now isn’t it? BTL sheep buying up all the affordable properties. Can’t you think of something more creative or positive to do with your cash?

In the statement “you’re a tit for speeding” do I say I have never broken the speed limit? do I? Read it back to yourself if it helps.

So that makes you a tit then (or a hypocritical tit) 🙂

Speeding is a tit like thing to do, if for instance you’d lost a child because someone was doing the best part of 40 down your street what would your response to casually shirking off the fact that driving over the speed limit is stupid thing to be doing?

No I’d probably keep a better eye on my kids and not let them play in an area where there is traffic.

Challenging the perception that speeding is a socially acceptable thing is just one way to make the roads a safer place for us all to be out cycling on.

Err, roads were designed for cars, not cyclists.

First off you’re a tit for speeding, full stop.

But in all seriousness, speeding is stupid, speeding in 30’s and 20’s is just reckless.

So you’ve never ever been faster than the posted speed limit, even by a couple of mph – not ever?

Either you’ve never driven, which makes you ill placed to comment on this thread, or you’re a complete liar. Either way the word ‘muppet’ springs to mind.

Bloody hell, sounds like you’ve had a right time – feel for you bro!

Pain will eventually subside but it will take a while, a good few months I’d say possibly even longer. Just accept that these things take a while to get over – like a bereavement. Expect to feel sh*t some days but remember you’ll pull through.

Seriously though she sounds an absolute nightmare and in a years time after you’ve got through the hurt and got your sh+t together then I bet you’ll look back and think you’ve had a lucky escape.

My advise would be no more contact with her than necessary, get out on the bike (lots) and spend time with your mates.

Scotland’s negotiating power should they vote YES will be zero. The rest of the UK will be holding all of the cards as Scotland comes cap in hand – ” can we have the pound please Mr Chancellor” “can we please keep some shipbuilding on the Clyde Mr Cameron” “pretty please” etc!

A well-informed and balanced piece from this weeks TV coverage…

I wouldn’t say balanced as there was no Scottish pro independence supporter on the panel, but the points raised were very interesting and very valid none the less.

The point about Scotland’s deep seated hurt regarding the Highland clearances and whatever else happened hundreds of years ago still seems to be holding them back. Maybe that’s why Braveheart, despite being a mediocre film, and the FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOOM! it promotes has attained such importance to the Scottish people. 70 years ago Germany did far more terrible things to the UK and the rest of Europe but thankfully grudges seem to have put to one side and and we have moved on. Forgive and forget – why can’t the Scots?

Overall it seems pretty clear that Salmond’s white paper is little more than a wish list of nice to have’s. There seems very little substance there at all. This practicalities of independence doesn’t seem to have been thought through at all. I get the feeling that it would be a very messy divorce, with the rest of the UK holding all of the cards, apart from Oil of course which will run out some point soon anyway, and even with the best predictions possible for the North Sea fields, an independent Scotland is still forecast to be a net importer of oil by around 2016.

What is the value of historical national boundaries?

Exactly, and when you read the definition of the Scottish people then you have to wonder if this all just isn’t a little bit hypocritical and pointless:

The Scottish people (Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich), or Scots, are a nation and ethnic group native to Scotland. Historically they emerged from an amalgamation of the Picts and Gaels, incorporating neighbouring Britons to the south as well as Germanic peoples such as the Anglo-Saxons and the Norse. Later the Normans also had some influence.

You would benefit from paying a bit of attention to scottish politics tbh. Where was the bitter in-fighting you imagine when the Parliament was created?

Infighting, hmmmmmmm, Salmond can’t even agree with himself it seems?

Truth is, we have a 2 party system and they’re mostly interested in scrapping over which of the 2 gets to be in charge, and thus mostly not too interested in disturbing things. Completely understandable tbh but it’s an impressive barrier to change.

Exactly as will happen between SNP and Scottish Labour if Scotland go independent. Same sh*t, different country, but with the added problem of bitter in-fighting over the scraps of new found political power, and trying at the same time to sort out the complex issues of setting up a whole new country. Heaven help you!

And whilst all this unstable turmoil and uncertainty is going on can you really see companies investing their money in Scotland, providing the growth that is needed to fund’s Salmond’s vision?

Like I said independence could be a good thing in the long term, but short to medium tern there will be a whole load of hideously expensive and deeply unsettling problems to be dealt with.

Why? There are lots of areas of the UK that never vote Tory but get a Tory Government? What is so special about Scotland?

Exactly there are lots of people who want the ‘Green Party’ in government. but the Greens never get in. It’s not fair! Should they be throwing their toys out of the pram too perhaps? Maybe best to become independent, have their own island where everyone eats Tofu and lights their own farts to keep warm?

Do you really think that after independence you’re going to get the party you vote for at every single election, do you really think that an Edinburgh centric government is going to do what’s in the best interest for the Weegie’s, the Highlands and Islands or Shetland? Maybe they should all be independent too?

So all of the No camp are stupid people with shit jobs? I don’t buy that for a second. Indeed, we have had some very articulate contributors on here who disprove that theory.

I didn’t say ‘all’ – I said from those that I’ve personally met. Plus the most vocal on here seem to be blaming everything bad in Scotland on the English or because they didn’t get the government they wanted at every single election.

So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?

Yes I’ve heard this from friends North of the border too. Many don’t trust him as it’s clear (like many politicians from every party) that he’s on some sort of personal power trip, thinly veiled as a campaign for independence.

It seems from this thread and from asking people on several of my work trips to Scotland that generally the people who would vote YES are the disenfranchised, low paid, and those unhappy with their lot. It’s easy to blame the English, the current political system or anyone but themselves for this predicament. For them the promise of FREEEDDDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM! they are being sold by Salmond, and a more insular, inward looking Scotland, is very appealing – in much the same way as a more insular, inward looking UK is appealing for the Sun reading ENGERLAAAAAND! ENGERLAAAAND! BNP voters in the UK.

All the Scot’s I’ve spoken to who were successful, well educated, had traveled extensively etc were firmly in the NO camp as they could see the massive up sides of being part of a Union and could see through Alex Salmond’s ‘smoke and mirrors’.

I’ll leave you to judge which group of the above would be the most suitably qualified to fully understand and assess the potential impact of Scotland being fully independent.

The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then? Will they rely on selling kilts to American tourists? Perhaps whiskey to the Chinese? Can they convince people the world over to drink Irn Bru rather than Coke Cola? Will the proclaimers make a worldwide comeback?

Seriously though it seems like the SNP have massively underestimated the amount of work, money and upheaval it will take to create an independant Scotland. It’s likely that if the YES vote prevails then the people of Scotland will be dealing with turmoil, uncertainty and disruption for the next couple of decades. It may perhaps be worth it in the very long term, but short to medium term I can see it being absolute mayhem. Not really the secure, stable base that Alex Salmond needs to create the solid growth in the Scottish economy that his manifesto is based on.

Scotland, is it really worth cutting off your nose despite your face?

Interesting how Alex Salmond has promised improved this, improved that, more money for this, more money for that. You have to ask where all this extra money will come from? Either it’s taking on huge extra amounts of debt, or upping taxes (a lot) but funnily enough I don’t really recall him mentioning this in great detail, which makes most of what he says a load hot air – just like most power hungry politicians. If the Scots vote yes and win, expect a load of broken promises.

I’m English, live in England and would vote no. I think that we’re stronger together and the Scots as part of the Union are part of a major global player, not the small, insular also-rans that they’d be resigned to after independence.

Not defending this idiot and his depraved actions in any way, but for all the people shouting ‘burn him’, ‘skin him’, ‘stone him’ etc – would you? Would you actually do this, with your own hands – or would you just expect someone else to do it for you? Or are you just jumping onto the bandwagon saying this ridiculous stuff because you think it’s somehow cool and because this is the sort of poisonous vitriol you read in the Daily Mail?

I have kids too and precisely because of this might I remind you that we live in a civilised society where we have ways of dealing with terrible people like this (i.e. prison etc). Thank god we don’t live in Medievil times any more where stonings or public executions are common place. That’s not the sort of world I’d like my children growing up in.

Thankfully as a society we seem to have moved on from this sort of state sponsored barbarism, even if some people on this website seem to be related to Henry the 8th.

Look forward to getting back to discussing bikes, cars and other stuff that I would far rather read about on this site than this.

On in 10 min.

toys19 – Member
I am a landlord and I hate every minute when something is faulty in my rented house. often tenants do not quote tell the truth though (not casting aspersions on the op) eg here is a text I received last friday night at 9pm:
Hi toys19, another electricity problem at the house! Since the electrician came on Wednesday every time we put the oven on, after about 5 mins it trips out the power. When we put the power back on the oven works fine and it doesn’t trip again but every time we turn it on initially it does it.
Now this royally annoyed me as I am often telling them if there are any faults they need to tell me pronto.
The electrician worked there on weds, and was working in all of my houses on weds thurs fri so could have easily returned on any of those days. She told me in her friday txt she that problem manifested on weds, bit waits until 9pm friday to tell me this me.
So I cannot get the electrician back until yesterday (weds) and they are all moaning that the problem has been going on for a now over 7 days and I am an uncaring landlord for not sorting it out last week..

To be honest you sound like a d**k, the sort of amateur landlord who gives the rest of us a bad name. Get a good electrician, fix the whole problem and you’ll have no more hassle. With an attitude like yours it’s no wonder tenants think twice or wait before informing you of a problem.

Surely if she’s a student and has her own car then she can’t be that hard up? Most students I know can just about afford beer and baked beans, let alone a car.

Don’t waste your time with more quotes. She’s taking the p*** full stop, just go via her insurance if she doesn’t cough up in the next couple of days. She should count herself lucky that you were not injured.

Sorry should apologise – I’m a bit of a car snob, not for expensive cars but for ‘good cars’ and expensive does not mean by default that it’s good in my book. I’ve owned Audi’s, Fiats’s, a Ford, Peugeots, an Alfa, a BMW, a Volvo, a Vauxhall etc so I’m certainly not fussed about the badge.

I’d just rather have something different, fun and unusual and can’t get my head around someone spending the best part on £20k on a mediocre car just because it’s new, or because of the ‘BRAND’. It’s a real shame that most people don’t realise that for just half of their £20k ‘new mediocre car’ budget they could get something really, really truly special.