“This line of argument falls down when you consider that there are football hooligans outside of the UK who aren’t “almost exclusively white”

But why are football hooligans in the UK almost exclusively white (using one particular exception does not prove the rule)? Is it something inherent in their ethnicity, as seems to be beings suggested about the criminality of certain travelling groups?

And when it comes to the reputation of Brits abroad, again we see our image tainted by the behaviour of mainly white men (very often travelling football ‘fans’, ‘stag’ do’s, etc).

Why isn’t the ethnicity of such people ever mentioned? As it was with the Oxford sex abusers, or is with travelling communities?

That looks about right, but perhaps without some of the more ‘alpine’ bits! I’m hoping there won’t be snow up there. But the ‘bunch of middle aged blokes on bikes ambling about’ image is spot on for our group!

I’m not sure what sort of excitment the OP expects from a cycling forum, but there are one or two threads that I’ve fund very interesting.

As for ‘travellers’; my very limited experience of a very small number of them suggests very low educational levels, and widespread lack of skills and abilities that are transferrable to the ‘regular’ world of work. This, coupled with the alienation and social disaffection, often inevitably leads to criminal behaviour and anti-social activity. I don’t think their behaviour has anything to do with their ethnicity or culture, and everything to do with the way their lifestyles (not always a matter of choice) are dysfunctional in the context of ‘regular’ society.

Almost identical patterns of behaviour are prevalent in many ‘regular’ non-travelling communities, so criminality and anti-socialism aren’t traits confined to travelling people.

Given the recent ‘debates’ surrounding the influence of culture on the men convicted of grooming and abusing young girls, I notice nothing is ever mentioned about the ethnicity of football hooligans, who are always almost exclusively white. Does this suggest a predisposition towards violence amongst all white men? Is it inherent in white culture and society, to act in an extremely tribalistic and violent manner? Should we assume all white men are violent thugs?

I’ve had a chat about my ‘concerns’ with the guy organising the trip. He assures me that it will be fine, and that we won’t be doing any ‘extreme’ stuff. I sent him a link to this thread and he said he found it quite amusing, and that most of the trails in the Lakes are ‘fairly easy’. I’m still just a bit concerned as to his definition of ‘fairly easy’ though.

I’ve walked up Helveyllen, and whilst I’m sure it’s possible to ride up, I’m not sure I’d want to, given the numbers of walkers up there.

I don’t think we’ll be going up Helveyllen or anything like that. What I’m really concerned about is that I’ll struggle on my bike, and hold the others up. The most demanding riding I’ve done has been on the South Downs Way, and it was only really difficult in a couple of places. I imagine that’s the kind of thing we’re likely to encounter, but I don’t know the Lakes. Can’t really borrow a bike as the guy’s someting like 8 foot tall.

Such quick responses, thanks.

The organiser has sold it as an ‘easy, relaxing holiday’ involving pub stops and food. But he’s quite ‘hardcore’ and does a lot of extreme mountain biking trips. So I’m a bit worried that his version of ‘easy’ might not be the same as mine!

I think he explains himself quite well:

He’d joined the army, he says, like many, to earn money, as ‘a way out of a boring lifestyle and menial labour’ and also to serve his country, ‘the idea of Britain as a force for good, liberty and democracy’.

His tour lasted seven months. His experiences changed how he saw Britain’s involvement in Afghanistan.

‘We knew civilians were being bombed and how the war was being conducted,’ he said. ‘It was conducted in a climate of racism and indifference to the Afghan people, completely at odds with how it’s sold at home. I came back and because of those things, I thought, “No, this isn’t right”.’

“We’re told we’re going there to help young girls get an education or to build infrastructure or really hackneyed stuff like security there equals security here.

‘Let’s look at probability. Does the US, with Britain in tow, go to Afghanistan to help women go to school or is it because there is, for example, 90 billion barrels of oil in the Caspian?

‘Is it human rights or is it because Afghanistan is in a strategic location with borders with China, Pakistan and Iran? Are we spreading democracy or is this power politics? It’s a new veneer on a very old practice.’

So maybe if the reality of the situation were more widely known, perhaps less people would sign up. Our media aren[‘t tellng us the whole story, that’s for sure, so there’ a lot of ignorance and misinformation about what’s really going on there. Seems like this guy had a road to Damascus conversion, and didn’t want to be a part of it any more. What was happening wasn’t what he’d signed up for, or been told. So he was in effect lied to, mislead, decived. I doubt so many would be willing to sign up if they knew the truth about what is really happening there.

Interesting article linked:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/13/israel-jail-conscientious-objector-natan-blanc

Israel wouldn’t have an army if there wasn’t enforced conscription. Israel wouldn’t exist if it didn’t have an army. But what about an individual’s right to refuse to take up arms against another?