is there anything that the Scottish government does, did or could do that you agree with?

Removal of child benefit cap, free prescriptions and youth dental and uni at point of use (although I would have means tested), banning pavement parking, reopening railway lines in Birders and Fife and East Lothian, building new railway stations, free school meals in primary schools…

Many of these things have happened in other parts of the UK but it was the SNP in government that was responsible for rhem in Scotland.

What these successes all have in common is they are technocratic, build on existing capacity, and are legal and have been immediate positive impact on residents’ lives. Where the SNP fails biggest is with poorly-considered, partisan, nation-building or plain unlawful initiatives: ferries, returnable bottles, gender recognition, Yousaf cosying up to Erdoğan…Not all of these were terrible ideas but beyond the capacity (legally or practically) of the SNP as the Scottish Government to deliver.

or just a layer in Waze

Good idea, my commute is a really boring 20 mile drive, it could do with livening up

;)

Is no-one worried about OP’s slightly robotic thread title? I for one welcome our new robot overlords (to Geneva).

Meanwhile, if (and to be fair it’s a pretty big if, considering the Telegraph) this is true, then it’s a bit of a LOL. The debate may not happen and the impact may be zero, but it’s not a great look. It reminds me of the increasingly arcane discussions of the fringe Internet left, where it becomes a weird kind of virtual worldbuilding like Dungeons & Dragons.

The SNP is set to spend time debating what national anthem an independent Scotland should have despite its general election drubbing… Stewart McDonald, a former Glasgow MP, said the move to conduct a conference debate on a Scottish state’s official song was an example of how detached his party had become from the everyday concerns of voters…He warned the SNP would get “horsed” at the 2026 Holyrood elections unless it urgently changed, hitting out at an unhealthy internal culture in which dissent and debate were not tolerated.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/out-of-touch-snp-plans-debate-on-post-independence-national-anthem/ar-BB1pXXWi

I’m not disagreeing with the idea that there is dire need in Palestine.

International development assistance works best when it is carefully planned, coordinated and delivered over the long term – not subject to chopping and changing of short term politicians. The UK International development community has been buggered around enough by that already. That money that was sent to UNRWA can’t be spent on the Scottish Government’s existing commitments in Zambia, Malawi, Pakistan and Rwanda – so what happens to them?

It’s certainly A Good Thing to be humane. Should everyone government agency in the country pursue one-off cash donations to humanitarian causes at its chief executive’s decision?

It’s very weird for a politician to go against the advice of civil servants, particularly on an issue where they have deep personal and family interests. To be blunt: if a Jewish FM were intervening in how aid were sent to Israel at a time when their in-laws were trapped in Israeli territory, there would be a firestorm.

It all speaks to a very lax attitude inside the Scottish Government and the SNP about transparency and integrity when it comes to spending other people’s money. Ferries, campervans, foreign donations, food banks…

I also just don’t understand how the Scottish Government can spend money on an issue that is outside its legal authority. But maybe I am just missing something there, as it seems such an obvious breach of the Scotland Act 1998. Perhaps Westminster passed subsequent enabling legislation or something, I don’t know.

the authorities could only identify the shooter using his DNA…. that was a pretty RAPID result, as they said that the aforementioned shooter was not known to them…. they must have had his DNA somewhere on the database…

I think, but I can’t find the article now, that the cops/whoever said they identified the gunman not from ID in his pockets but “by other means”. That might not be DNA. I think there was a suggestion the gun was registered to his father – so perhaps the serial number could be immediately searched? I have no idea how accessible that data is. Or it could be something as simple as a local cop recognising him from around town.

It seems very odd that the Scottish Government is spending millions of pounds pa on international development when international development assistance is a reserved matter per s7 of Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5

https://www.gov.scot/policies/international-development/development-assistance-programmes/

It seems even odder that while the development work in Malawi, Rwanda, Pakistan and Zambia is quite carefully planned, Yousaf should have been making off-the-cuff decisions about how much and to whom to make emergency donations in support of Palestinians.

I’m not sure I buy the implication that the donation to UNRWA was a quid pro quo for Hamas getting his parents-in-law out of Gaza. I thought that the Rafa crossing was controlled by the Egyptians and Israelis at that point…?

https://news.sky.com/story/humza-yousaf-scottish-first-minister-denies-conflict-of-interest-over-250k-gaza-donation-13090590

?? ?? ??

But actually even I thought the England team were more exciting and engaging, and if it weren’t for the sparks of that 17 year old (!!!) Spain would have been a lot less interesting.  Pick Pickford had an amazing match – but I bet it doesn’t feel like it right now.

what would be the reaction to hearing Putin had been shot? Or the Ayatollah?

Are you aware that the President of Iran died suddenly two months ago and nothing has changed as a result? Or that Khomeini died 34 years ago and both his cult of personality and regime persist?

You picked a great example to show that people’s deaths rarely solve problems on their own but assassinating them might come with the added bonus of reprisals against the weak.

BBC saying that the shooter is a registered republican.

As an aside, it’s not unknown for activists in and members of Party A to register as aligned with Party B. It allows them to participate in Party B’s primary and vote for the worst candidate to get Party B’s nomination. The idea is that that puts Party A in a stronger position – unfortunately the last decade seems to suggest the nuttier the candidate, the more likely they are to win…

Also, why didn’t the authorities just disable the gunman?

“Shoot him in the kneecap so he drops the gun” only really happens in the films. If it is correct the gunman was lying on a roof some distance away, that’s an unreasonable expectation. I’m police sceptical by instinct but I doubt disabling (without killing) the gunman would have been a practical course of action unfortunately.

JFK assassination, U of Texas Tower shooting, Las Vegas concert mass shooting…all lone gunmen shooting from an elevated position.

Twaddle about running out of money is the bit in the middle that is a myth.

It’s true the government can’t run out of money. Unfortunately, that money might be valueless. Pass me another million reichsmark note, the dog’s shat on the lawn again!

There’s a difference between that and actively wanting someone murdered.

+1. And that difference is what gives rise to the kind of stochastic terrorism we have seen rise at Trump’s direction. But it also happens here: David Copeland, Khalid “Adrian Elms” Massood, Darren Osbourne…

Donald Trump, Stochastic Terrorist

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c19dp7wmy18o

The virtue signalling and fake handwringing is much worse than the honesty being displayed when it comes to opinions on Trump.

The cheap iconoclasm of Internet tough guys who are unlikely to bear the brunt of reprisals after assassinations of Trump or Putin or others is also a form of virtue signalling.

The MAGA movement is all about Trump, it’s a classic cult of personality. Take him away it would almost certainly fall apart.

The cults of personality around Stalin, Mao, Kim, Khomeini, and Ataturk all persisted after the death of the person involved because none of the underlying conditions or structures changed. A cult of personality necessarily means elevating the figure of worship above the reality of the person – and once the super-human idol has been created, it doesn’t matter too much what the person does or even if they survived.

You might have noticed that Trump isn’t much of an organiser or operator – he’s a remarkable person but he’s a fetish and a proxy. He’s not a Tito-like figure who is the glue sticking all these dissonant pieces together in a way no-one else can.

(I’m not an expert, but am about to finish an MSc in a related area).

You’re an expert!

The simple fact is that had that young man been successful, the world would be a safer and more sane place today

Just like the assassinations of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Gadaffi, Habyarimana, Trujillo, Park…?

It’s not a “simple fact” at all. Trump’s backers and support base still exist, and there’s no shortage of equally angry replacements. MTG probably had some intensive thoughts when she heard the news!

And to stress test that for a moment – would the same request stand if it was Putin we were talking about – or is there a value judgement  being used here too?

The murder of Putin would not result in a more peaceful, democratic Russia. There are no institutions and no succession plan. Whoever seizes power would likely be more erratic than Putin. There might be short term gains for Ukraine (if it could seize the advantage while the military is in disarraey) but it’s not a problem solver.

why weren’t the people behind trump hit?

Too far away. Trump was speaking in Pennsylvania. The Kochs live in Kansas, Murdoch lives in NYC, and Putin was probably in Kizhi.

Drac Full Member

Mod: Can we please not wish someone was killed. Thanks.

Posted 1 hour ago

Agreed. There has been a spate of posters ironically or seriously calling for death or serious harm to their political opponents. Even if it’s empty words – it’s a bad vibe.

I have no help. Sorry to hear of this, and good on you for helping out your friend.

Reddit suggesting that the person identified as a gunman was a registered Republican. Although Reddit also suggested that a completely innocent person was responsible for the Boston Bombings, so…

Trump Shooter is a registered Repulican
byu/freq32 inLeopardsAteMyFace

How could the witness on the BBC see the rifle and gunman, be shouting about it to police, yet no reaction to move Trump off stage?

People say all sorts of stuff immediately after a violent event that turns out to be not quite accurate…

RustyNissanPrairie Full Member

Keep Biden

Assassinate Trump

(don’t worry I’m only in charge of the stationary cupboard)

Posted 1 day ago

You almost got for you wished for on this and the other thread. ?

Of course it is when you provide no alternative, no solution.

The solution would have been for Biden to quit and the convention to pick a new candidate for the Democratic Party, just as it has in many previous elections. Just because there is not perfect condensus on the perfect candidate, it doesn’t mean there is no alternative to Biden. He’s not the only one that can win – esp when it’s not clear that he can win again at all.

So much of it seems to be just indulgent, unproductive griping.

Hold on, hold on – it’s not indulgent or unproductive to point out that the guy regularly can’t remember what he’s saying in the middle of big events, that stubbornness and reality denial are not going to help him respond to emerging challenges, and that he’s failed at succession planning!

 I hear that some grown adults still ride bicycles.

Why would you ride up a hill just to ride down it again? What’s the point in trying to go faster in a big circle – just don’t go in the first place?!?!? Idiots

still has nowt to do with Murrell that other folk in other circumstances have been prosecuted successfully.

If Murrell is taken to trial, it’s the facts that are relevant to him that matter, not the facts relevant to the last few politicians that were convicted, true. But the allegations aren’t outlandish (this sort of stuff happens all the time), these types of cases are usually document-heavy (unlike eg sexual assault cases), and the people making the allegation of embezzlement seem generally competent and successful in this area.

But we’ll see. It’s a long way between today and a verdict.

surely it does not create money – its creates stuff or value that can be exchanged for money?

Banks, building societies, moneylenders of all stripes are (apart from government-owned ones, obviously) are all private sector. So too are the private companies that issue highly tradeable “commercial paper” (short term debt instruments) that are part of the broader money supply.

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/money_credit_banking/monetary_aggregates/html/hist_content.en.html

States also (intentionally or accidentally) compete with each other in issuance and supply of both physical money and finance denominated in the state’s currency. Some states have simply given up the fight and have adopted others’ currencies: Kosovo, Montenegro, El Salvador. Others allow foreign currency as legal tender or accept it for official functions: Tanzania. Retail banking and borrowing in foreign currency can be common among ordinary people eg in Hungary before the GFC there were loads of EUR-denominated domestic mortgages.

So the whole proposition that a state has a monopoly on money – or even currency – and can pretty much call the shots is just nonsense.

None of the possible replacements have the organisation/structure/team, backers, donors or money.

The donors are on strike because they feel misled about Biden’s condition and are disappointed at his underperformance (sez The Rest Is Politics US).

Where is Obama?

Obama gave the green light for Clooney’s hit piece on Buden (some source).

Behind the scenes the Democrats will already have a plan B…The decision to remove him will have already been made behind closed doors. They just need to wait for an orderly and planned handover

I’m not getting “diligent, calm and organised” vibes from the Democratic Party at the moment (admittedly, those vibes are filtered through media outlets chosen according to my prejudices).

what does that have to do with Murrell?

Sorry – my ninja edit added a new last paragraph that elaborates a bit more.

Want to take a bet on any criminal sanctions ever appearing?  Pastry based of course :-)

Couldn’t get the list in before the edit guillotine fell, sorry.

COPFS and Police Scotland seem to have a pretty reasonable success rate in prosecuting politicians charged with offences in recent times:

– Natalie McGarry, convicted Aug 2022

– Humza Yousaf, convicted Feb 2017

– Margaret Ferrier, convicted Sep 2022

– Bill Walker, convicted Aug 2013

– Mike Watson, convicted Sep 2005

– Tommy Sheridan, convicted Dec 2010

Jim Devine, Eric Joyce etc were convicted in England.

Obviously the big exception to the above is the unsuccessful prosecution of Alex Salmond – but sexual assault cases are inherently much more difficult to prove than fraud, and an impartial observer of that trial wouldn’t come to the conclusion that it was a baseless or spurious prosecution at all.

I’m happy to criticise Police Scotland and COPFS (see, for example, their total institutional failure in relation to Police Scotland officers choking a black man to death in the street and then using racist tropes to justify it), but it hardly seems to be the case that they’re in the habit of bringing unwarranted prosecutions of politically influential people in Scotland.

Not sure what crime you think has been committed in all that as well.

That’s your classic common law embezzlement offence – which is the offence that Murrell has been charged with. This is an absolutely unremarkable scenario that happens all the time in organisations all over the place constantly.

And you know all that stuff?

Oh, no, I don’t know all of it – hence the word hypothetically. Of course, any sort of document (or even credible witness statement) that proved that the campervan had really been transparently purchased for the party would be immediately fatal to an allegation of embezzlement in relation to the campervan. COPFS would have to immediately abandon that allegation, it would be dead in the water. And you’d have thought that kind of thing would be pretty easy to dig up between emails, purchase orders, invoices, payments data, insurance policies, property inventories and all the rest. But we’ll see.

Want to take a bet on any criminal sanctions ever appearing?  Pastry based of course :-)

COPFS and Police Scotland seem to have a pretty reasonable success rate in prosecuting politicians charged with offences in recent times:

-Natalie McGarry, convicted

–

Burden of proof runs the other way  :-)  You need to find proof of wrongdoing.

Well, a prosecutor does – but those of us outside court can draw our own conclusions.

But in any case when, hypothetically, a senior officer of an organisation is proven by prosecutors to have spent that organisation’s money on something that had never been bought by the organisation before, and was never used by the organisation, and was kept at the disposal of that officer, and that purchase was not transparently discussed inside the organisation, and was not properly documented, and there is no evidence to contradict any of this despite that kind of evidence being easily available in the normal course of things…then the court is entitled to draw an adverse inference from all of those circumstances. Or not, as it chooses!

Citation please, with username attached. ?

Sorry – I do apologise.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it WAS a daft purchase in retrospect but I can see the reasoning.

Ach well, I’m sure that there will be plenty of internal emails with different people transparently discussing whether it was a good idea or not for the party to buy it or not, what the spec should be for party use, where to procure it from etc. That’ll be easy enough to find on the email servers and this will all turn out to be a big misunderstanding…

there is distinction between currency and money. Sometimes I use it interchangeably.  But reality is the currency is enforced. Money is not. But it’s easier to say money when in discussion.

Yeah – unfortunately once you admit there’s a difference between currency [sic] and money generally, and that the state has a monopoly only on production of legal tender (which is a narrow concept), and realise the private sector creates 3-5 times as much money as the state, then this neat, inexorable conclusion falls apart:

Then ask yourself where does the private sector get money? Well yeah – totally simple logic that the only people tasked with issuing currency is the government via the BoE.  Because legally no other person can create currency. So it follows the private sector can’t create it.

…and the proposition that the government has a magic wand but just won’t use it because they’re not galaxy brain enough evaporates.

if you’re going to embezzle for personal gain you don’t buy a whacking huge white camper, park it in a close relatives drive then never bloody use it.

You yourself just said they (Murrell and Sturgeon…?) were “double stupid”. But not stupid enough to do that? I suppose we may find out when it comes to trial.

Just to be clear: do you genuinely believe that there was an intention for Sturgeon to drive around Scotland using the campervan as a “mobile campaign room” and not stay in hotels during election campaigns?

Keynes which is as close to accepted widely as anything this is not true.  You can pump money in to stimulate growth so long as there is space in the economy to do so.  Its only after a certain point that inflation will become an issue.

Yes, true, although I would suggest rephrasing slightly that Keynesian Demand Management stimulates demand. Whether KDM results in growth or inflation depends on whether there is excess capacity in the economy (so that supply increases), how sustained the initiative is (a single overnight dump won’t help), and how much money goes outside the domestic economy (where a big chunk of US stimulus money went on consumer crap from Temu).

The UK currently has a 50 year low in unemployment but also relatively low inflation. In a mixed economy like the UK, that’s not a classic illness for which Keynesian economics is the cure. If the government was going to do anything, it should probably be long term infrastructure investment of the type the private sector can’t or won’t do – like HS2 or Northern Powerhouse or massive regeneration projects over 20 years.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/l55o/mm23

[Money]s not scarce when you can print it, which is rather the point of the thread.

You have unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. You just need to go back and understand what “scarcity” in an economic sense means and how it generally has an inverse relationship to value.

And then you’ll see how printing an infinite amount of money reduces its value (ie inflation). In fact, this statement ceases to be true in high inflation economies – either economic actors insist on being paid in kind or in other currencies, or they simply withhold their labour/goods/services:

[fiat currency] has agency in the economy because businesses, workers and banks accept it as currency.

Meanwhile:

in the UK, we don’t have a lot of natural resources that give us stability in the long run either.

If Scotland were independent it could nationalise its immense oil, gas and water wealth and develop a reserve currency.

Are any of the contributors to this thread economists – with something beyond a first degree – or financiers? That background would provide a degree of credibility to the various posts. Without that academic rigour, the posts are all…meh

Two things: welcome to forums. Second, unless everyone signs their real name to things and allows their qualifications to be verified, there’s nothing to stop anyone claiming to be anything so “credentialising” is a bit pointless.

I reckon the explanation is basically true tbh, it could have worked out really effective to have a vehicle like that, if covid restrictions had carried on further.

You don’t seriously believe the suggestion from anonymous sources in the SNP that “the campervan was about trying to have an ability to campaign while complying with the rules. It would have acted as a mobile campaign room. It would mean not having a need for hotels and minimise mixing.”

I’ve not seen any actual evidence of misuse

Have you seen any actual evidence of genuine use or even an intent to use it in a genuine way? It was parked on private property, was not used in 2+ years, was not marked with any SNP signwriting, is patently and unsuitable for the supposed purpose, was not sold after the pandemic despite the SNP’s dire financial position…

these workers weren’t forced

Yes, they are.

information gathered on the ground from interlocutors and workers in labour camps refer to increasing reports of exploitation of the low and semi-skilled foreign workers … trafficking in persons for labour exploitation is widespread in the UAE and victims of such form of trafficking remain unidentified and cases underreported.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2012/04/united-arab-emirates-un-expert-urges-further-action-protect-victims-trafficking

Migrant workers comprise the vast majority of the workforce in Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Kuwait where they effectively fall under the control of employers due to the kafala (sponsorship) system and have few, if any, labour rights.

https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/findings/global-findings/

GLOBAL SLAVERY INDEX / COUNTRY STUDY

MODERN SLAVERY IN UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Overview

The United Arab Emirates (UAE) has the second highest prevalence in the Arab States region, and the seventh highest prevalence in the Global Slavery Index. Migrant workers in the UAE are particularly vulnerable under the kafala (sponsorship) system, a restrictive work permit system that ties migrant workers to their employer.1 The system embeds a steep power imbalance by granting employers control over their employees’ lives…

Prevalence

The 2023 Global Slavery Index estimates that on any given day in 2021, there were 132,000 individuals living in modern slavery in the UAE. This equates to a prevalence of 13.4 people in modern slavery for every thousand people in the country. The UAE has the second highest prevalence of people in modern slavery of 11 countries in the Arab States region, and the seventh highest prevalence out of 160 countries globally.

Forced labour

Forced labour exploitation

The kafala system is a set of laws and policies that delegate responsibility for migrant workers to employers, including control over their ability to reside in, work, and exit the country.4 Migrant workers cannot access legal protections or leave their employment without facing legal and financial consequences.5 The system exacerbates the employer-worker power imbalance and prevents migrant workers from reporting abuse or exploitation.6

Migrant workers face risks of forced labour particularly in the construction, domestic work, and service industries under the kafala system.7 Allegations of forced labour occurred in the construction of, and during, the Dubai Expo 2020, with indications that workers from Bangladesh, India, Kenya, Nepal, and Pakistan had their passports confiscated, wages withheld, were forced to work long hours, and lived in poor conditions.

https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-arab-emirates/

You’re presenting the use of migrant labour on construction projects in the Gulf like some sort of cross between Hi-De-Hi and Auf Wiedesehen Pet based on a documentary you remember seeing. The reality is very different. And it’s not a viable or sensible solution for the UK.

Have they got a duck pond?

Why does it matter if they have a jacuzzi?

Oh, a duck pond…