Just thought I’d better pop up to give Starling’s point.

Omitting Andrew Major’s credit was in fact a genuine error. He was credited in an early draft, but then got missed in final version that got sent to media outlets and newsletter subscribers. We have since done all we can to correct, but it perhaps didn’t happen quick enough due to it being the weekend. We will make a public apology very soon.

Maybe we should have included him from the start, but as it was just in comments section, we didn’t really think we needed to? A lesson learnt maybe…

I’ve spoken to Andrew, and there’s no bad feelings.

It’s hard work trying to be satirical!!

@Mick_r

It’s just 20×10 box section…

@tomhoward

Have a look through Starling social media, it is indeed a good starting point for a gearbox bike…

@cyclesouthwest

What makes you think there’s gaping voids.  The welds are just not filed.  And this bike was never cleaned up post brazing, this was deliberate to give a raw finish for Bespoked.

The brazing is damn good, can you do better?

And your unproven opinion is just as valuable as real world experience in this case…

Good stuff, but a few of you are straying into commenting on cost.  Please try to keep that out of you comments…

I have my reasons!

How off putting in the DVO green to people.  Not the green forks, but the green anodising.  I’s very hard to match to frame/component colours…

All the major brands do Metric shocks now, including Rockshox, DVO and Fox that can be supplied with the Starlings.

Maybe ‘Factory’ is a bit tongue in cheek!

Neither bike is better than the other.  Both bikes ride the same.  It’s just whether you get on with the limited ‘Factory’ sizing or not.  If so, you’re lucky and you’ll save a few £££.

There’s a couple of nice details on the UK made frame not on the Taiwanese one to differentiate (stainless lasercut stealth port, bird detail in HT gusset and integrated seat clamp), but they have no impact on the ride.

@davesmate

Joe from Starling here…  Really sorry you think I’m profiteering, just trying to make a living.  It’s quite hard to deal with a situation where I have a frame that’s very in demand, but nobody is keen to wait.

I really don’t want to end up in a situation where I can’t fulfil the waiting time I have promised to people.  This is a sure fire way to piss people off and get a bad name. I’m also a new business which is changing rapidly, this makes planning tricky.  Therefore, I need to limit my waiting list.  I’d had lots of enquiries where I had declined people, so I felt a first come first served might be unfair.  The raffle was my solution to this and worked well for the people who applied.  I didn’t make an profit from the raffle other than a donation to a charity I am close to.

I’m trying my best to keep everyone happy.

Different supsension systems have different compromises.

With a true single pivot, design practicalities mean there’s some compromise between leverage ratio or pivot postition for anti-squat/chain forces. My Starlings have gone for a linear leverage ratio with optimal pivot position. With modern air shocks the linear leverage ratio is no longer the issue it was in the past. The benefits of single pivot are less parts to go wrong and less opportunity for weird behaviour.

Personally with modern shocks I believe the single pivot is more than capable. If done properly, other factors such as geometry, frame stiffness, wheel size are much more important than suspension system.

What complicated suspension systems do is give manufacturers the ability to differentiate their designs. Brand Ys BLX suspension system is 13% better at small bump compliance than Brand Zs. This would be very difficult if all companies made single pivots. People buy into manufacturers bullshit!

Finally, very interesting to hear comments that the Starling’s good reviews are only because I’m matey with Steve Jones. I must be a very nice chap then, as I’ve got good reviews from lots of different places.
The reviewers pride themselves on being unbiased.

It’s just more proof that people cannot believe something is good without a load of marketing bullshit. No FXG suspension system, no 184mm wheels spacing, no OD headset size, must be shit then. Or maybe it’s just plain good, wihtout the need for bullshit technology acronyms.

I respect Orange for standing strong and making great bikes that pepople continue to buy. I respect riders who shun technolog bullshit!

Mark, remember your frame is an early model with a slacker seat angle than latest builds. If it feels too long pedalling, the steeper seat angle will solve. I’m assuming it felt good size whilst stood up attacking?

Gary, sorry my powdercoated decided to give a canday a go, but it’s been a bit tricky!

Excuse my poor English in the post above, still the school holidays…

Starling Murmur can run a 200x50mm shock for 120mm travel. I ran the prototype like that for a while and it ran great…

As part of my ongoing attempt to kill MTB marketing claims, I did some quick calculations to see how much Boost front hubs improved stiffness over conventional 15mm.

With a number of reasonable simplifying assumptions, the additional spoke base width made a 5% increase to the spoke component of lateral wheel stiffness. With modern wide stiff rims, spoke stiffness is only a proportion oif whole stiffness. Then if we consider the imapact of tyre flexibilty…

The conculsion is my favourite phrase, ‘two tenths of **** all’!

The only reason for Bosot is to ‘future proof’. But as many people point out, standards are changing so quickly, the future is not very far away.

£1300 could buy you a very good set of very stiff wheels.

But why is stiff good anyway!

Starling Cycles Beady Little Eye, full sus singlespeed…

Rik, Mojo tuned X2 is the one. It was fantastic with the EXT Storia, but it killed some of the life of the steel frame.

Jonesy’s test of the Starling Murmur was against some top level bikes, Trek Slash, YT Jeffsy, Cotic 29er and others.

I think overall he just loved the ride feel and the times were consistently quicker.

Is steel the right material for bikes, maybe. Luckily (for bike manufacturers) the problem is so complex and difficult to get definitve answers for, that it will fuel interest and debate for years to come.

The motorbike track test with 3 different stiffness swingarms(mentioned in an earlier post) is a good example. Laps are timed to small margins and riders can consistently put those times in. The variation between tracks are not massive. This allows some difference between swingarm effect to be quantified.

To try to replicate this test with offroad bicycle with so many other variables is nearly impossible. Hence opinion and debate rule.

Personally I belive my Starlings are great because they have a solid silent ride character and are simple to ride. Riding a bike down a technical tracks is quite a brain intensive activity (in my case anyway). A rider that can concentrate and relax will be a quick rider. If your distracted by noise and quirky riding characteristics, your gonna be rubbish!

Starling Cycles 29er taking orders now…

http://www.starlingcycles.com

British, single pivot with no bearing issues, custom sizing and geometry, any colour! Beautiful, fast and silent ride.

I can build you a Starling Cycles frame (www.starlingcycles.com) with the front triangle geometry you want. Reach, head angle are standard options.

Long and slack is indeed fast on flat out rough courses. But short and steep is great fun and possibly faster on tight tracks.

Read the recent review on Pinkbike of the IBIS Ripely comparing long and short geometry.

RPA, Bristol Motorcycle Powdercoaters.

I get all my frames done there. Warren is great and does a great job.

Buy from Mojo and you’ll get a custom set-up session included in the price. Unless your a proficient suspension fettler, this is worth its weight in gold.

Retro resurgence!

I suspect Retro will become a genre for new sales. Perhaps a return of Klunkers.

Otherwise, all the bells an whistles. Electronic gears, posts. Self setting suspension. Bikes with computer chips linked to your phone. More integration, i.e. less aftermarket kit. Only bike specific bits. Like cars and motorbikes.

Thanks,

Some good ideas there.

The Mountain Kings looks good.

And after initially discarding the Mud Kings for their 1.8 width, reading the reviews has made me reconsider.

But keep ’em coming?

The Rocket Ron isn’t tough.

The 1.8 is too narrow? Ideally I want a 2.1-2.2.

“What a modern 160mm or 180mm bike does is allow one to……..”

Go faster when racing!

Agreed, you don’t need a lot of travel for drops and jumps. But it really does help with confidence in hitting them.

The day I got my SC Bullit years back, was the days I started hitting ‘big’ things. I’d now be happy hitting them on my hardtail, but at the time doing these things was new to me and I needed the extra confidence offered by the 6″ beast.

Once you gained the confidence and the skills, riding the same stuff on short travel bike is way more exciting!

What’s your drug of choice; Adrenaline or Endorphins.

If it’s the former, a new full-sus bike might open up the beast in you and you start enjoying big rough technical scary trails, big drops and jumps, where more travel is better. If you buy a short travel bike, you’ll just be left wanting more. If your a learner rider, more travel adds confidence and a safety factor to big moves.

If your more on the side of a endorphin addiction, less travel will be better. Why carry that extra weight for travel you don’t use. Pick a bike that zips along and lets you push harder. You only need a short bit of travel for comfort on those long epic rides.

You’re probably in the middle. But be true to yourself in what you want the bike for and there’s loads of great bikes out there to give you what you want.

Kinda raises the question whether a similar system to ProCore but using a foam could be developed. Perhaps extrude sections that fit nicely into the rim/lower portion of the tyre.

Much simpler, lighter and robust than ProCore.

Any foam manufacturers out there…

I’m 40 next year.

Hopefully this will mean better race results in the Vets category! But I don’t hold out much hope.

I’m giving up nothing. The one thing I really should do is take up Yoga or some other flexibility type practise. This really is the thing I can feel affecting me and what will keep me going.

Other than that, a change in job is the one thing that would make the biggest positive change to my life. But monetary responsibilities make this tricky. Anyone want to give me £50k to make building bikes full time a real possibility. Not investment, just a philanthrotropic £50k to turn it into a proper business!

Thank you.

Got a broken hand, so slightly addled on Codeine!

What about a custom frame?

Starling Cycles Swoop, http://www.starlingcycle.com

I’m in talk with a chap who’s 6’9″ about building a frame.

I’ve recently got some Reynolds 853 custom downtubes made. These are longer as well as thicker and should allow me to build a frame with up to 550mm reach, maybe more.

I should also be able to do a custom build, with Fox suspension tuned to the bike and you requirements for your budget.

Had a similar altercation with a taxi driver.

I was following the car in front in the middle of the road (down hill in a 20mph zone!), he overtook me then forced me into the side of the road. Then started shouting at me telling me I should be in the cycle lane.

I saw red and gave him a load of abuse. I then moved back to following the car (it’s bloody dangerous riding in the cycle lane). And he did it again. More shouting and swearing.

He was being a ****, but I also turned into one as well. It’s really hard to maintain your composure when someone is using their car to bully you.

Don’t use Ryde Trace Enduro rims, the beads are way too thin to sustain any kind of impact.

I’ve just got some DT EX471s.

In summary, it’s a pretty shit design!

If you have a loose cassette tool, i.e. without a handle; I use a wheel QR skewer to hold it in place. This ensures the tool doesn’t slip. You need to loosen of the QR as you undo the cassette.

But what about Trevor, is he not feeling neglected with all this attention on Troy.

My real world experience is that they are made from something similar to cheese. One weeks riding in the Pyrenees (with dual ply tyres!) and they are almost destroyed.

Although the wheels have stayed pretty true, the bead is completely fully of dings. One fractured the bead and the sidewall. In my opinion, the beads are just too thin.

My friends on Stans FLows and even XC rims had no issues.

What’s good for one person may not suit yourself.

Try and get some video of, or mates watching, you riding. Corners, steep sections, rough stuff. Where is your weight? It needs to be well balanced between front and rear.

If your need more weight on the front tyre, use lower bars. To far forward, perhaps the higher bars are what you need?

Just spent a bit of time with Chris Porter from Mojo setting up the suspension on my bike. Aside from getting my suspension sorted first, he also dropped my bars a bit and rolled them forward. With this small change, I was instantly riding way better and in more control.

I suppose we rarely see ourselves riding. But doing so, would allow us to get in the right position. Rather than just copying our peers and the fast boys!

The easiest way to understand the leverage nature of a single pivot is to consider the line from the main pivot to rear end of shock. Then consider a second line along the length of the shock. The angle between these two lines at mid-shock-stroke, is an indicator of leverage ratio.

If the angle is 90°, you’ll have the stroke linear and constant (within small tolerances).

If the angle is greater than 90°, you’ll have a falling shock ratio, i.e. softer at the end of the stroke.

If the angle is less than 90°, than you’ll have an increasing shock ratio, i.e. ‘progressive’ in modern terminology.

You can see this clearly on the picture of the two 224s posted before.

However, air and coil shock have their own spring rate that affects the final behaviour. A coil shock has a relatively constant spring stiffness through it’s curve. Whereas an air spring stiffens up as you get to the end stroke.

So a slightly falling rate on the frame may result in a linear rate when combined with an increasing rate air shock.