Its her choice, if she wants a more traditional style shoe like the boys are wearing then crack on, they wont refuse to sell her them and the school wouldn’t have an issue.

Except that choice is very limited, and often limited not just by the manufacturers, the shoe shops themselves, the school uniform code, but also the desires of the parents and their peers.

It’s the “death by a thousand cuts approach”, society tells little girls they should behave a certain way, look a certain way and play a certain way. Sure they have a “choice” not to conform, but that choice is limited by everything else. Not sure why that is difficult to appreciate?

Sorry Cougar, I can talk some bollocks but this takes the biscuit. Do you live in the 50’s

Cougar’s right, just have a look in the clothes shops, the magazines, the TV programmes, advertising, toy shops etc. It’s so obvious that the messages are there, and fed to us and our kids on a daily, hourly basis. Sure individually they’re pretty benign*, but add them all up and you get kids with attitudes as displayed in the programme.

*Although thinking about it many of them aren’t. I tried to get school shoes for our kids (boy and girl) recently, nice heavy duty stuff that could cope with running around and climbing trees that kind of thing. Easy enough for son, minimal choice for daughter (everything is open foot, shallow sole, minimal rubber protection). She’s six and being restricted by footwear choices already!

Ignore it, claim it doesn’t represent modern society if you want, but I’m afraid the evidence is everywhere.

that at the moment the fastest person in the world is a man but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman.

In the longer distance races the difference is decreasing quite quickly apparently. Looking forward to mixed professional football* now!

*Actually, that’s rubbish I don’t like football.

Whats wrong with the balance we have now?

I think this is the crux of the matter. Some people don’t see a problem, generally those who benefit. Those who don’t do see a problem and would like to change things so that the benefits and concurrent costs are equal.

Feminism, antiracism (etc.) 101 isn’t it?

I don’t buy it either, but religion is the main reason for our ascendency to the top of the food chain.

It’s more of a food web really, where you start and finish is up to individual perspective.

I’m not really sure we are that successful anyway, viruses/micro-organisms for example kill millions of people, animals, insects and plants. Insect species are vastly more successful than humans in terms of individual numbers and biomass. We’re pretty good at messing things up for one species, only to realise that nature abhors a vacuum and makes up for it by providing shed loads of another species to fill the gap!

I also get very annoyed with politicians who proclaim to be members of a faith, pretending that they have some sort of moral compass while they enact policies which spread misery, conflict and outright injustice

It’s a brilliant, probably the best, excuse for power hungry folks to grab and hold on to power. ‘Twas ever thus.

This leads me to conclude the existence of any gods/supreme beings is highly unlikely.

I’m not sure that conclusion is particularly accurate. I have no problem believing that humans are pretty low down on the “intelligent life spectrum” and there’s likely to be others who are smarter than us in what is a really big universe.

No, my concern, if I was religious, would be whether I’ve got the right one/ones. I mean imagine spending your life worshipping Jehovah (or other god/gods), only to realise after it’s all over that there’s someone else above them? How do they ever know that the supreme being they worship is the one at the top of the pile, i.e. the supreme one?

Turtles all the way down, gods all the way up IMO…

Is there much point in the UK as an entity existing anymore anyway? Would probably be easier just to separate Wales, NI, Scotland and England completely and take it from there…

So Nazis are the Dark Side? They won’t like that.

It’s the better uniform thing all over. The baddies always look cooler.

Ban privately owned motor vehicles. Business use only.

Do you mean the idea that male and female brains are different? If that is the case, and if the idea of that is abhorrent, then I guess the question back would be, well why; why is the idea that there might be small but important differences across large population samples of men and women in terms of their make up be so abhorrent?

Abhorrent? I wouldn’t use that word, too many assumptions behind it. May be uncomfortable. No, I was just under the impression that there was far more variation between individuals than sexes, and that it had minimal impact in terms of capabilities or character traits.

There are after all clear physiological differences and these directly affect men’s’ and women’s’ abilities to perform certain tasks. The fastest male 100m runners are faster than the fastest female 100m runners for instance. No one quibbles about that.

Is that brain differences though? I was again under the impression this was due to muscle mass and bone structure.

When it comes to potential differences in personality and the way that then translates to life experience, why then does that become such a problem? (Let’s for a moment assume that this is irrefutable, i.e. that there are differences and that some (but note NOT all) of the difference in life experiences and outcomes can be attributed to those differences in personality traits. I accept that this is still open to debate on a number of levels but this is a thought question for the moment).

Because there are, I believe, far wider variations across individuals, and my understanding is that any differences between sexes is more due to socialisation than genetics. Besides which, assuming certain classes (be that sex, race, nationality or whatever) of people are better or worse at one role compared to another doesn’t sit comfortably with me.

Why is the idea of MRA also so abhorrent? You do know that ‘MRA types’ by and large don’t want to try and halt or reverse the advancements in women’s right, we just want to have the issues that specifically affect men (for example suicide, failing/low educational attainment, lack of parental leave rights, health care and life expectancy etc) to be recognised and addressed. Why treat that with such disdain and spite? (Note that if I met any MRA Type who was motivated to reverse the equality levels we have reached, I would disown them. I also accept that there are MRA types who are motivated like this.)

Because the only MRA types I have encountered are those you are disowning!

Your grasp of psychology sounds pretty basic. Mine is not much more advanced and it’s true that a lot of psychology is done in a terribly plebeian way. The highest branches of the subject though use very robust methodologies to try and understand human behaviour though it is also true to say that our understanding of how the mind works is incredibly naive.

Thank you for the compliment! My knowledge is basic of the science, but I’m well aware of the discussions within the profession. Hence my assumptions previously re: lack of appreciable differences between the outcomes of men’s and women’s brains.

thats all this is, same shit different century

I’m inclined to agree, to be honest I’m a bit surprised that this Google chap has been taken so seriously. These kind of arguments are routinely put forward by MRA types, and then typically ignored by the more serious scientists.

I was under the impression that the whole evolutionary psychology/pink brain blue brain stuff had been debunked years ago? I suppose that psychology as a science is still in it’s infancy anyway so is a bit of a magnet for folks who like to try and “push boundaries”… …though sometimes they try to push them backwards, rather than forwards.

No

Oh, okay.

I’ve never been much of a film critic!

Enemy at the Gates was pretty good I thought.

We need more airport capacity nationally

What for?

I’ve just texted my girlfriend on the subject and she has no problem with podium girls/paddock girls etc. Member of the labour party, incidentally, has 2 daughters. Views are not what I expected.

It’s interesting, my wife is the same. Yet, my views come from other women who I’ve spoken to who appear to have different (or should that be more radical) views. Listening to the female perspective is something that should be a given.

Bizarrely, (or maybe even ironically) I only really started hearing about the feminist side of things after helping out with the Tour Series in Woking in 2009/2010, back then the podium girls caused a bit of debate too. I was pretty ambivalent about it then.

In a position to judge or on stw?

Both, but mostly the latter!

Of course you are – you’re posting on STW.

Yeah, but I shouldn’t be.

But very true.

Perhaps, I’m in no position to judge.

A lot of the correct behaviour is only performed because folk want to be seen to be doing/saying/writing the right thing.

How do you tell the difference between someone motivated by their conscience and someone wanting to look like they’ve been motivated by their conscience?

Actually, scratch that. That kind of conversation should be had at 2am after 10+ single malts!

People are self-serving, selfish cockwombles who only usually care about equality if affects them immediately – they rarely care unless forced to.

A harsh way of viewing the world!

No, but whilst I’m sure Peyote will (if he chooses) reverse and say he meant society the one of the main concepts of White Privilege is that you, the individual are, whether you know it or not, and actual racist. And unless you undergo racial bias awareness re training in order to make you aware of your own underlying subconscious racism, then you’re probably a racist. Generally.

Nope, I stand by what I wrote. I think it’s the human condition to favour those like themselves. I also think it’s wrong. So while I recognise that my default assumption is prejudiced I try to take that into account the way I live my life. Both society and individuals are racist, sexist, etc.

I don’t think racial bias awareness training is necessary (it focuses purely on one prejudice for a start), I just think people need to empathise a bit more with others who have different experiences than their own (so that covers all -isms). It’s not easy, and I’m not claiming to be whiter than white, but I recognise I’ve been dealt a good hand and many others haven’t.

Point about trams is that these days they are hybrids so they use train infrastructure and hence go much more quickly and directly when they need to, without traffic, but then they can nip onto roads when the rails run out or around the city centre.

Now that makes sense, I didn’t know trams had gone modern like that!

every city needs a tram network I reckon.

Trolley buses, then cyclists wouldn’t get taken out by the rails.

Just out of interest, I’m pretty sure the Sun didn’t ban their page 3 pics. I can’t remember exactly why they decided to get rid of it, but I think it was on the back of public opinion of one form or another. I’m sure there must be other examples where sexism either just wasn’t considered acceptable and faded out or was pressured by public opinion.

Using these routes would mean that OOB concerns as to “where the line is drawn” could be avoided completely. It would likely be an iterative process (or public debate*) and stuff like “attractive person with sporting talent” could be considered by race organiser/PR dept/audience alike. Rather than a more draconian legally binding approach.

* Just like this thread!

If you really think that TdF podium girls suggest that women are just for show …

At the risk of repeating myself (and others), this is still a small part of a wider problem. Looking at it without appreciating the context doesn’t really work.

I think there’s a direct link. He’s posting pictures of women dressed as he feels they should which is pretty much total coverage in baggy-ish clothes except a bit of face. (…and I suspect those pictures are taken somewhere colder than France in mid-summer.)

Meanwhile the blokes are in t-shirts.

Really? You don’t think you’re jumping to conclusions and making some pretty dodgy assumptions there?

I see people dressed in normal clothes celebrating.

edited to add – bin dun

I thought he explained it quite well OOB:

Grown up, people celebrating and no need for some extra totty

No need to bait with Taliban etc. comments surely?

I wasn’t aware that women were second class citizens in France. What rights or privileges are they lacking there?

I don’t know, but if they echo what is happening here in Britain then there’s plenty to Google. Check out the 50:50 campaign for equal representation in parliament for a start. I’d be surprised if there wasn’t equivalents in France, but happy to be corrected.

Yeah, that would be good Mikewsmith!

I tried, what do you want?

What system is that exactly?

The system that allows females to be treated as second class citizens compared to males.

We’re struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.

It’s a difficult one, because on the one hand it impacts on the employees directly, and on the other it’s supporting an unequal system that does require change. So, who cops it? Society, or the individual?

I think I’d err on the side of society if it was that simple.

Applying the same logic to pop videos and Elizabethan actors seems false. I suppose they have the back up that they are using skill/talent in their dancing/singing/acting rather than just being decorative. Quite nuanced though, depending on the performer and on how subjective you want to be.

I thought when you said “Should they be banned? I don’t know.” you were considering advocating banning women from the stage at prize giving as an option. What *were* you considering advocating banning?

I think it should be an option, but I’m not sure if banning it is something I would support. Hence my “I don’t know”. I’m reluctant to ban anything if the truth be told, but recognise that some things are necessary.

Ultimately, I’d like the point of them being there to be removed, i.e. them not to be seen as trophies (and other reasons as previously explained on this thread) in which case banning would be pointless as their raison d’etre would’ve gone.

If you *did* ban women from the stage at sporting events would you also ban women from the stage in theatres/pop videos?

Should we go back to the Elizabethan convention that women’s roles are performed by men?

I’m not sure why you would want to do either of these. If a coherent argument could be put together as to why then I’d be happy to listen to it.

It’s certainly not something that I have read/heard within any feminist circles I’ve been party to. I guess the issues and concerns with these examples are different to those of the podium girls.

Impossible to prove either way though.

I agree!

It’s always going to be a bit of personal choice as to which side of the fence you choose to fall on, and please don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing that there aren’t any differences between men/women and boys/girls either physical or psychological. I do however think these differences are massively magnified by society and often used to create detrimental conditions for females which is essentially what I fundamentally disagree with.

Getting back to the thread title, the podium girls are just another (admittedly small) facet of the greater problem. FWIW I don’t think that the individual girls (well, women) are generally exploited in this example, it’s a step change to prostitution etc. I suppose it’s more the principle that I have a slight issue with. Should they be banned? I don’t know. I feel uncomfortable with there being an expectation for them being there in the first place.

DezB – I’m racially polymorphic. Still racist though!

It sounds quite plausible when attempting to retrofit it to what we are currently living in, and has gained a fair amount of traction over the years. Trouble is, there’s very little evidence to back it up – we don’t really know how cave-folk lived. It may have been a matriarchal society for all we know!

I still believe it is mostly nuture, having a child of each gender I disagree with your assertion about the gender roles from year dot. That isn’t my experience. They are each individuals, and it could just be yours follow societal patterns and mine don’t!

When there’s a charging point in every single lamp post, street sign, etc. and a charging point between every 2 bays in practically every single car park (not just 8 bays next to the disabled parking on the ground floor), then it might be a future.

Or quick chargers in every current fuel station?

Or wireless charging imbedded in the roads you drive on?

Or replaceable battery packs available in fuel stations?

Technology moves on too quick in this area, energy transfer and battery capacity is getting faster and bigger respectively. The EV industry is now recommending that trickle charging be phased out due to it taking 14+ hours to charge a normal EV these days! Interesting times…

Seems to me that the things that interest blokes have a lot of parrallels with male pre-historic role (hunting), and the things that interest women have a lot of parrallels with female prehistoric roles (gathering and nurturing).

Evolutionary psychology? I’m not sure how accepted that is in scientific circles these days.

Oh dear, someone’s still a racist

Well yes, we all are.

Have you received your brainwashing racial awareness training to rid you of any subconscious bias you might be harboring?

Nope, I think the point is that I recognise it and try to avoid it, rather than remove it. Call it, being enlightened to my faults if that helps!

I can’t wait until all differences between genders, races and cultures are completely eradicated and we can surge forward as one amorphous grey blob of asexual blandness.

Wow, that was a leap! From legal and societal equality to physically being the same? Interesting, care to explain the logic here?

<snip> I sat near three women in the pub last night. <snip>

Not really a representative sample I would suggest. Besides, I’m not sure that the majority of feminists would argue that looking atrractive/make up use is intrinsically anti-feminist. Could be wrong though, I’m not a feminist!