So… how many people in this thread actually have a vote?

My wife and I do.

After the comments a few pages back about the extent of abuse received by the Yes campaigners I suppose to go with the tweets re. JK Rowling above we could add this sorry tale.

JK Rowling says No Given she knows a thing or two about writing fantasy fiction, that’s a poor review for the White Paper then.

So Ben, an unnamed US Government source quoted by an unnamed Scottish Government source. Quite a compelling case that.

And Darling clearly qualified the blood and soil comment – not sure how anyone objective could associate its problematic historic connotations with the way it was used in that interview.

I’m afraid that’s a big “so what” from me with added credibility for the nat cause lost by going on about it.

None of that is likely whatnobeer. Scotland can’t even fast track public sector change of its own design when it is in control of every component. Been there, tried to make it go faster, gave up and did something more interesting instead.

It’s currently part of an EU/NATO state.

And it would be voting to leave those arrangements. How many times do we have to go over that? The stated aim of the iS campaign is to negotiate continued membership before independence day – i.e. there’s an acceptance that it needs to be arranged.

The apparent notion that an iS will get everything it has asked for in the White Paper and everyone else is going to have to make all the concessions is optimistic in the extreme.

If you only want 40 miles, one of the problems is 25% or more of that just being about getting to the edge of the city and back.

It might be worth using the cycle paths to get to the bridges which is pretty quick – I used to do that as a commute. You can then head west round the coast on minor roads taking in Blackness Castle then to Linlithgow. You’d get a decent climb south east over towards Broxburn before being able to pick up the cycle path from Broxburn past the airport and then the (surfaced) canal tow path back to the centre – again it used to be my commute and was pretty quick.

They also confuse SNP policies with independence. To be fair, so do the SNP in their white paper, but saying that SNP policies are unaffordable is not the same as saying independence is unaffordable.

Now this is just getting silly. The SNP is in government and so their plans are all we have to go on. There’s little enough in the way of credible financial foundations to the white paper without us having to vote on the basis of what some other government could do, particularly when the other parties which could form a government don’t want independence.

So that’s the unelected House of Lords removing powers from the democratically elected Scottish Parliament

Not quite. That was the House of Lords proposing an amendment which was accepted by debate and vote in the Commons. The Commons could have refused that.

The Lords can propose amendments or delay matters but the Parliament Act stops them from defying the will of the Commons. If you’re going to direct your anger at Westminster, at least get the right bit.

if the people of Shetland want independence and can muster a referendum to say so, fine with me.

And what if Borders / D&G clearly votes No within an overall Yes vote? Is that a referendum to split from Scotland and remain with rUK?

The borders of a country are where everyone agrees the borders are.

The concept of the Islands gaining independence from Scotland has been ridiculed on here. There is no difference between 20,000 islanders deciding they want independence from Scotland and 5M Scots deciding they want independence from the UK.

By your argument, the 62M people of the UK agree what the boundary of the UK is so we shouldn’t fragment that. Because that’s where the borders are now.

Sorry to go back a bit but I had to go and do some work:

Scotland is a country so asking how to divide a country is a different questions all together- no one is suggesting breaking down a country here – its moving the goalposts to get us to discuss a similar but not identical area
We all accept countries have rights that areas within a country dont

It is isn’t moving the goalposts. Scotland as a country is a fairly recent notion. Until 13th Century the Lords of the Isles were effectively independent and their allegience was to Norway. It was only in the 15th Century that they were broken (If my memory serves, that was for trying to get the English to assist them in the overthrow of the Scots King). Is that irony?

Arguably, the country of Scotland within its current boundary existed for less time as a single nation than it has done within the Union.

So the question of how far back or how small you go is valid as we’re rewinding the clock – do we go back to 18th Century boundaries, or 15th Century or 12th Century?

OK i have imagined it now what is your point/scribble?

I thought that was pretty clear – Scotland has differing patterns of voting. Some areas will therefore not get the Government they voted for. How small do you break the a country down before you decide the democracy is local enough?

I’d like some fadge please and maybe some dulse

Yes, but together?

I sincerly hope the no campaign continue the currency issue as their number one card, It’ll drive no voters away the longer it goes on. no-one believes osborne.

With a UK general election in May 2015, there’s no prospect of GO conceding currency union before then as he’d be toast in the Westminster elections were he to do so. The persistent refusal of the Yes campaign to understand he’s no way out of that commitment is remarkable.

Back shortly after Channel 4 started, they did a series of the worst movies ever. A 4th channel was such a novelty that we watched most of them.

List of movies included

Scotsman article Can’t find a poll offhand, but page 1 of google search shows a Scottish newpaper article expressing the concern, so presumably the journalist had a basis for it.

And we don’t live in a democracy, you just think we do.

As I said earlier in the thread, I think there’s less transparency than you think.

I’ve dealt with ineffecitive Ministers who rely so heavily on their civil service team that you negotiate with the civil servant and the Minister rubber stamps it. I can’t find the link at present but I think it was last week there was a debate about the Committee system, which is supposed to be the backbone of Holyrood transparency, being bypassed.

I have to say thm.. I disagree that the union has been so sucessful- for a reasonably small minority its been very sucessful yes, but ask folk up and down the country who have had their benefits cut or rely on the Nhs or are having to rely on foodbanks.. I’m not so sure they would agree.

Well NHS is a devolved issue already so not sure why you consider the Union a negative for it. The notion that Independence is somehow a solution for every ill in the world is somewhat worrying. Oil isn’t the answer.

Trust me, if it goes to yes, its bodies in a room, round a table, doors closed, and no-one can predict the outcome despite the current public pronouncements.

I’m afraid I’m unconvinced. With Westminster elections in May 2015, any U turn is likely to be used by opposition parties for electoral gain. Gov’t won’t be prepared to take that risk so the line publicly and inside negotiations (lest there be a leak) will be the current policy. At least until after May 2015, by which time any Westminster Govt will have had a chance to include in Westminster manifesto what it will / won’t do in iS / rUK negotiations.

Since average speed cameras where installed on the A616 Stockbridge bypass north of sheffield KSI accidents have reduced by 82%. The speed limit has also been reduced to 50mph

How long is that? Perth to Inverness is something like 115 miles.

I don’t know the road but if it’s dual/single/dual all the way maybe these people “unable to overtake” are happy to wait for the next dual section?

Possibly, but it is often miles to the next dual section and it will often be short and used up by one truck trying to pass another.

kcal – In the previous thread I linked to a site which had lots of info about the main risk factors in accidents. I think there’s a mix of more traffic, cars which are more capable of speed comfortably than they were 20 years ago, less training in how to overtake properly and general impatience. All stuck behind trucks that used to do close to the same speed as cars but are now restricted.

If only everyone would make progress

You jest, but there’s an element of truth in that. There’s a large number of people who just don’t seem to be able to overtake at all. Were they able to take the opportunity, there’d be shorter queues and possibly less frustration.

Average speed cameras are all about reducing speed. And in my experience that is exactly what they do.

Which is why they’re not gaining universal support on the A9. It isn’t a road which suffers much from high speed driving. Even those opposed to the cameras agree the problem is poor overtaking and with so many long slow speed convoys ave cameras are likely to make that problem worse. That’s why the effect is unknown – will the overtakers sit in the queue or carry on overtaking? The pilot of alowing HGVs up to 50mph is the sweetener for the objectors.

gogg – Member

Isn’t it more that they’re discounting during term to try and sell some rather than jacking up the cost during the holidays?

It’s economics 101 or making hay while the sun shines…
Both. Not many peak weeks available, so jack up the price until you find the highest price where weeks available = number of people willing to pay the price. Fill up the rest with targeted offers. All discounts are there for marketing purposes, not because there’s a fixed price that something ought to be.

It won’t be. It is perhaps easier to digest if you think of it as a concept which covers the situation where landlord and tenant don’t follow what they’ve agreed in the lease.

I genuinely don’t know – is it?

I used to do the pricing for a holiday company. Crudely, prices were raised as far as they could go when there was more demand and discounted when there was less demand. You’ve got the space there and serviced for the entire season and the only way to make any money is to keep it filled, so the peak visitors subsidise the rest and the holiday company, if they’re lucky, scrape by.

So I’m not allowed to criticise big business because in some way or another I benefit from capitalism?

Of course you’re “allowed” to criticise business. That’s all part of debate, but your quote was not critical. It was dismissive based on the source, not the content. That isn’t debate.

We’ve used Roca[/url] in the last few houses and it seems to be pretty good VFM

This is evidence ? do you not think it may just have an agenda?
This article may or may not be accurate but if AS or Yes had this as the blurb to something they said you would be attacking it

Of course there is an agenda – CBI bills itself as “the UK’s premier business lobbying organisation”. So it is very clear that anything it says relates to the concerns / needs / wants of business.

Business doesn’t get a vote, but as it employs many and pays a chunk of the tax an iScotland needs, it is a voice worth listening to in amongst the rest. You can accept or reject its analysis, but don’t ignore it because of your own bias.

rubbish.

I’m sure you’ve got some thorough analysis and experience behind that succint response. Care to share it?

The CBI strongly criticized devolution before 1997 – using pretty much the same arguments as now

They said the case had not been made for devolution and expressed concerns over the tax raising powers.

With the tax raising powers not having been used, no-one can say if CBI concern was valid or not. I’m not sure if devolution has been good or bad. Whilst some things are good, the time I spent in the public sector led me to conclude Holyrood is less effective and accountable than might be expected.

To dismiss anything new the CBI says is as ridiculous as refusing to listen to Alex Salmond because he used to express admiration for Ireland’s economy.

Today’s CBI criticism of the White Paper[/url] Just to start the day, another publication getting into the economic detail suggesting more problems than benefits of an iScotland.

A point the business leaders themselves have made.

Indeed. I’m CFO in a Scottish business with a strong export trade. I deal in enough currencies that another one isn’t a big deal. Were I sitting in England, I’d probably take the same view.

Because Osborne isn’t really daft enough to cause big problems to rUK businesses to make a point.

As has been covered many times, his point is that the downside risk is worse than any business inconvenience.

but after a Yes vote they don’t need to posture any more, they need to get a good deal for the rUK.

Not really. As I’ve said before, whilst AS might turn up saying he’s got a mandate from 5M people to get x,y,z, rUK turn up saying they don’t have a mandate from the other 55M to deliver x,y,z.

If AS doesn’t get the deal he wants, do you think he’ll sign it in order to get independence or do you think he’ll back off saying the deal isn’t good enough? That’s entirely possible and what happens then?

Osborne is posturing – it’s a pre-referendum negotiating position, not a statement of fact.

And you’re sure of this how, exactly?

You are asking Salmond to campaign for the 2015/6 election there. Why should salmond tbh the currency question isn’t for him to tell us its for us to tell which ever government forms the first Parliament.

Next Scottish Parliament election is due 5 May 2016. Proposed Independence Day in event of a Yes vote is 24 March 2016. Currency will have to be resolved before the next election as it will have to be resolved before Independence goes “live”.

So what you are saying is that hose who agree with you have “thought about it”…confirmation bias somewhat.

Far from it. I’ve asked people why they take the view they do. Those who say no list off a bunch of reasons. Those who say yes just say they think it would be better and when asked how “better” would be achieved have little or nothing beyond saying local decision making is better. I’d have loved them to have more substantive thinking behind their views so we could have had a debate, but there wasn’t much to work with.

imnotverygood +1