The imaginary friend tack is flawed in that perception of reality is a relative experience. If you rely solely on physical input to derive a image of the real then that is subject to all of the errors and tricks the mind and senses are capable of. It could be argued that a perception of god is a trick but by the same token perception of love is also a trick or even of touch, taste and ultimately logical process is merely the same trick – i.e. physical/ electro-magnetic reactions causing a false image in consciousness.

The ‘atheists are moral’ point I was making is that of course atheists can be ‘moral’ but in a hard-materialist structure those morals are utterly relative and, ultimately meaningless. You can have as many morals as you like but they are neither good nor evil, in fact they cease to be morals, they are just fabricated rules to make life more palatable, a comfort blanket like a god or ultimate reason. They may make a society work but only a specific form of society that has been deemed good for whatever reason that group has come up with.

The starving child analogy is a good one. Yes the child perceives the pain but in reductionist terms that pain is merely a series of nervous impulses, if we take this further, the child is a collection of fundamental particles reacting to one another it could be argued that the pain the child feels is the inevitable consequence of the universe existing at all and as to whether it carries any moral weight is neither here nor there – it simply is.

If we assume that there is no ‘other state’ of existence, the spiritual or the transcendent then we are left with a physical only world. If that is the case then morality, goodness or worth are all ultimately fabricated for our own satisfaction. If the starving child dies then nothing has changed, the world is ultimately the same, nothing has left, merely changed state.

Faith could be the perception of something else, outside of the material, or it could be a trick but both situations require us to address the nature of reality – or ignore the issue.

Chapeau to the Op for an honest question into faith and its attendant problems.

I think the issues raised are massive and an open mind and thoughtful approach is warranted. I’ve got an awful lot from reading Kirkegaard, Nietzsche and a few others in the ‘big hitters’ camp, as well as C.S. Lewis from the Christian apologists.

I don’t think the ‘imaginary friend’ angle is particularly helpful as it is neither particularly perceptive or a true reflection of theology nor is the ‘atheists are moral too’ oft quoted line. Neither are robust arguments and since our perception is such a flawed medium it is difficult to establish any fundamental truths about the world outside of our own heads.

Religion and Spirituality are not necessarily the same thing nor are they exclusive, explore them both with humility and an open mind a decide for yourself….

Here endeth the lesson, go in pieces…

Gonadotrophin! That’s hilarious – why hasn’t this been pointed out? 😆

I think the thing ebook reader allow you to do ‘better’ than a book is carry volume. I often dip into weighty texts, philosophy and all that, without necessarily reading the whole text in one stint. I might read a novel in a series of goes but dip into a variety of other stuff over that time period. Example – I’m reading Rabbit Run by John Updike at the mo but also having a look at The Antichrist by Nietzsche and finishing off Crime and Punishment – carry three books into the cafe? Not me! I just kindle and go!

The kindle is great and a much nicer reading proposition than the iPad. If you read a lot then no comparison, backlit screens hurt my eyes after a while, the natural, ‘flat’ appearance of the kindle is just right and there are tons of free books!

I don’t want to be misunderstood, kids do mix with all kinds in state education but they do in life as well. My point was the standard of education is no better in private schools than comps, it’s just that comps deal with society as a whole not just the well off element.

I think there’s a good chance of meeting your fair share of rapists, murderers, tax avoiders, financial wheeler dealers and future MPs in the private system so there’s no guarantee your child will not be in the presence of evil.

It’s a constant irritation in threads like these when state education is referred to as worse than private or poor schools. I teach in a tough Liverpool school and still get A* from kids at GCSE and A2. I also have to teach future rapists, murderers and armed robbers. I’ve taught kids who go to Oxbridge Unis and kids who end up in prison. The education the kids are offered is excellent, the situations they come from can range from supportive and educationally enriching or the down right abusive. If I had classes of 15 with parents bothered enough to pay for their kid’s education then I’d sodding hope my results would be amazing! Instead I’ve got classes of 30 whose parents think school is an inconvenience on the way to their careers in dealing (I’ve experienced first hand the Y11 student walking out of a class ‘cos he can earn more in a day than I can in a week.)

Private school provides a rarified atmosphere and privilege but does not offer a better standard of education to students and families willing to learn.

AND education is not a one way street, it is not a customer/ provider relationship. Students and their parents have a duty to become valuable and contributing members of society as much as school have a duty to deliver that service…

Send your kids to private but don’t kid yourself it’s a better education, it just stops your kids meeting anyone working class.

I think there are certain etiquette and conventions that exist on a bike that don’t in a car. I think she was almost totally in the wrong, you don’t slam on and stop on a trail like that. I imagine the scenario is more akin to riding in a road group rather than driving your car and if you brake erratically or suddenly in a road group they’d certainly let you know whose the fault was! She is an idiot compounding her idiocy with aggression, possibly the worst kind of idiot.

If she’s inexperienced then she’ll learn from her error, if she’s experienced then someone needs a quiet word in her shell-like to not be a total psychopath.

+1 for he’s too nice she’s a horror-bag

Most Merlot =

2nd breakfast? What’s that all about?

On an average day I eat –

B’fast – small bowl of cereal/ semi milk

Lunch – Banana, Apple, Yoghurt, Cereal Bar

Tea (I’m common) – Pasta/ veg and fish/ rice dish + Yoghurt

Black Coffee/ Chai tea throughout the day

An average day will include either 2 hr road ride or 4 – 8 mile run. May have a cereal bar or some toast after exercise and try not to eat after 8pm.

I weigh between 75kg and 80 kg at 6’3″ depending on whether I’ve had a flash meal and or some booze.

Get used to being hungry, it won’t kill you to be a bit peckish for an hour or so and stop eating so much!

Here endeth the lesson …

Pumpkin Pie FTW!

I suppose the question is do you want an espresso machine or an ‘espresso-a-like’? All the Nespresso’s and all that rubbish are…er…rubbish and I don’t have any truck with the ‘well I like it’ argument either. Some people like X-Factor but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a foul pox on the face of music.

A decent machine with a quality pump and metal construction, including heat stable boiler etc is the best way forward; Rancilio, Gaggia etc and a decent burr grinder plus lots of practice.

Do the right thing, get a good machine (or if you want your espresso in about 10 years a hand pump machine that you can learn to use in said 10 years….)

Thanks all!

I’ll give it a go. My fork’s a-c length is about 445mm so should be cool.

I went fell running Sun afternoon over Moel Famau and Moel Arthur and you could see the trails were battered (not having a go, they sort themselves out pretty quickly over there) and v.muddy! Running down the ‘long grassy descent’ was a hoot when my studs clogged and I skated about 10′ on bike tracks and sheep poo!

That's hilarious whether it's your sister or not! And like the post on the Youtube vid said, elite Triathlon = weekend warrior everywhere else!

I kid…. 😉

I've got both skinny and regular – the skinny are like normal jeans and the regular are huge! I'm quite skinny and I've seen fatter legs hanging out of a nest but the regular are baggy, I even have to turn them up!

I was in work (school) and everything stopped while the news filtered through, TV's went on in classrooms, the whole school just fell silent…weird!

Bizarrely, doing some work with some Y10's (14) the other day I mentioned 9/11 and hey didn't know what it was which I thought was very sad and a bit ignorant but then I should have learned not to be surprised by now…

Spongebob – There is a great tradition of interpreting scriptures (of all kinds). Why do you insist you can't pick bits of the bible? Biblical inerrancy and infallibility have been theological hotbeds for hundreds, nay, thousands of years. Why do we suddenly stop thinking about an experience when you say so?

All religions interpret their holy books, that's why there are sects, cults and schisms. You sound more fundamental than most religious people I know! 😀

I hate the way internet conversations keep going while I'm not around!

erm…I think the indignation of a materialistic community and their assertion that spirituality (used in preference to doctrinal religion) is evidence of weak mindedness is unhelpful at best, if I think a self starting universe is rationally unlikely and my perception of reality has room for the divine then this can be intellectually rigorous – some clever people believe in god lots of idiots don't and so on.

A consciousness of a spirituality within humanity is not without its experiential evidence – now this may be delusional, I'm sure a lot of people think it is – but the counter point is the assertion that any kind of reality can be genuinely perceived by a human 'machine'. Your existence at all is difficult to prove and may well be delusional, this conversation may not be happening outside of my own consciousness. Our minds trick us, we know this to be true as far as anything is true. Our senses are unreliable and so we pick an experience that we choose to validate over another, I believe a spiritual experience based on my perception of the universe around me in the same way I choose scientific understanding of other aspects of my world view. The Modernistic 'my way or the highway' of some atheistic and religious dogma is simply not indicative of the human experience or the validity of human perception.

The old morality chestnut is perhaps an example – Morality is possible for an atheist but is purely subjective and concepts of right and wrong are only dependent on the viewer's opinion. e.g. If I leave a man to drown in a river it is deemed morally repugnant by society even if I'm following my evolutionary instinct to preserve my genetic code over another's. In fact leaving the man to die is, surely in a materialistic universe, praiseworthy.

Atheism can have all the morals it wants so long as it owns up to the understanding that it doesn't matter – being nice is the same as not being nice, existentialism, liberalism and nihilism have already been through all this why do we keep looking for absolute authorities like a gang of Modernists? Atheists have their comfort blankets too…

Molgrips – being 'moral' because it makes you feel good is a form of gyroscopic liberalism so good on you for atheistic rigor! Now you just need to get rid of the hang ups about not harming another and all that nonsense and we can crack on!

The fairies/ ghosts/ dragons argument is not a particularly rigorous one in that a commonly understood experience of a reality with a deity in it is shared and reviewed by plenty of peers, whereas fairytale creatures may be the preserve of an individual.

ps.

There is some weight in the argument that science is not a linear understanding of the world, constantly moulding itself to new evidence but rather a series of paradigms defended by the old guard in the face of opposition, just like…er…religion?

I also usually stay out of these things as arguing on the internet is like shouting at a duck, quite satisfying initially but can only end in frustration and embarrassing misunderstanding…

Why do religions differ? Each religious structure may be the cultural exposition of a universal idea, in that all people* experience a god consciousness that is filtered through a cultural understanding of the reality they exist in. Spiritual texts are experiences of god in a context, socially and historically. The Qu'ran may be an experience of the same god as the Bible, indeed most scholars would back this up. Whether the stories are literally true is another issue.

Is faith a suspension of reason? I don't believe so. We experience reality through a filter of consciousness, my truth is not necessarily yours and it is (as yet) impossible to verify the validity of the data we receive. A belief in the divine may be the result of rational analysis of data available – existence demands initial impetus cal it god if you want.

Can atheism offer morality – yes an atheist can be a moral agent but can a godless universe support an empirical morality? I don't think so. I understand the requirements of moral code for societies to function but even hat is a fairly shaky explanation – there are plenty of examples where successful evolution demands a step away from social morality and even if that weren't the case the morality of society is entirely without lasting foundation. I struggle to understand how any materialist atheist is not compelled to become nihilistic or at least a gyroscopic libertarian.

I'd describe myself as an active agnostic with significant theistic tendencies or as John Updike puts it "I just can't seem to shake it"…

*all people refers to the 'people of the earth' rather than you, yes you, the one at the back with no soul…

I've just done this using an mtb tensioner (not pretty but works) and an old 9 spd cassette for spacers etc. I broke down the old Sram cassette and used the sprockets/ spacers from there to sort out the chainline – must admit I did take up a lot of the space using half a Gusset spacer kit I had lying round. All works a treat!

"He (or she) who runs driest runs fastest" – a badly paraphrased quote from Fausto Coppi, out of context and probably wrong but he sounds like he could handle himself in the winning big races and nobbing podium girls stakes so it's advice I personally subscribe to…

Plus carrying water as a runner makes you rubbish

Meant to also say it's very lovely!

That is almost exactly as I plan to build one up! Not keen on the bars but each to their own!

Where did you source the lefty?

No one cares what you think you big spanner!

I like it but…

I'm not sure I'm into the phaser/ chorus on the guitar in the opening bars and it's perhaps a little fizzy for my taste. Singer's holding her own (oo-er!) but the backers could grow a pair!

All in all Noddy would be into it!

As for the album art…

A buff? Really?

I've found 'modern' (had a pair of those grey/ blue/ yellow ones that were great!) salomons to be a bit feeble when trail/ fell running, using Montrail (highlanders?) now for fell and usual Asics for trail and road. I think for anything genuinely off road/ track newtons etc are a bit weedy. If it's not full on fell then something light but tough, (Inov-8's, La Sportiva Crosslites, Walsh's new trail shoes) would be a good choice as their midsoles are a bit thinner than full road shoes but still quite supportive.

Forefoot running doesn't do anything mad to your shoes I don't think, if anything I think people run a bit lighter like this (heel striker and proud!).

I want a pair of the laSportiva Crosslites now….

I really don't understand how schools are held accountable for the delivery of healthy eating advice to children, is there nothing left a parent should teach their child? We have to teach them to be citizens, how society works at its most basic levels, how banks operate, how to eat, how to wipe their arses, how not to get the local bike up the duff…the list goes on and on and on and on and on….

Parents, teach your children how to be people, then schools can get on with delivering the area specific knowledge that might lift them out of the cultural bumhole of x-factor, and the ****' lottery…

and breathe…

I couldn't be bothered reading the whole thread but I'll chuck in a few (non-scientific) observations from the point of view of a teacher (not RE) and an active atheist/agnostic/ theist (depending on the side of the bed I got out of).

1. RE is schools is subject to Ofsted inspection, we just had one, RE got done…

2. Teaching in an inner city comp RE is often the only access to a sense of global conscience or human driven empathy that many students get. Dawkins offers very sensible ideas about the evolution of morality but fails to offer a suitable answer to those who exempt themselves from it and take Materialism to its conclusion – think horrible 'spiritually' bereft 15 yr olds laughing at a starving child or an animal being mutilated – I'm not suggesting religion is the answer to their issues but Materialism has led them to it.

3. Scientific method is all about observation and conclusion but the nature of the observed and its ability to inform 'reality' is not a wholly scientific realm, philosophy and theology have their place.

4. Suggesting 'religion' is one, fundamental, looney, suicide bombing, kid indoctrinating uber force for evil is like suggesting all science and all scientists are swivel eyed crazies with a 'embiggernator' in their cellar and a corpse tied to the slab waiting for a swift bolt of lightning to the neck.

5. Religion in my school has about as much power to indoctrinate as a 'cut your own testicles' off after-school club. However blind self obsession and utter contempt for anyone or anything that does not immediately reward you is a prevalent ethos – for which I blame Dawkins and his lot (this may not be true…)

Here endeth the sermon…go in pieces…

Stove top espresso maker? What's that?

I think it really is down to where you teach. I teach in a tough Liverpool secondary and it is a hard job, very demoralising and grinding BUT there are real up sides and it is a tough job to leave because the holidays are awesome and the pay is pretty good.

I don't want to turn this into a competition of woes but I still can't believe I get paid the same as another teacher working in leafy Surrey with bright, educationally encouraged students. The 'worst' schools often have the best staff because they're the only ones who can cope. I've taught in private and the teachers there were a gang of nobbers who couldn't each their way out of a damp paper bag – my current school is a virtual no-exclusion system which means the academic cream of the locale are taken by the selectives and we teach everyone else.

Remember like a lot of public sector work you meet ALL of society, parents and kids. I've taught the local gangland boss's kids (racist, bigoted, misogynist), a future rapist and murderer (psychotic at 16, mum wouldn't allow intervention), future Oxford graduates and some rare, well balanced happy kids.

This is turning into a weird ramble….I'd better stop….

Oh, and it's fewer perks and fewer pension rights…

Private sector – LOL!

Erm…no, cos if we don't like it we'll go on strike and you'll be screwed

It's an interesting idea to me that books have not shaped a person, since I suppose literature is a means of exploring what it is to be a person. Science etc has held little to no interest to me throughout my life past 5 years old when I though being an inventor would be cool so the arts, and literature in particular, have been the primary influence on, not making my ideas for me, but rather informing the ideas I began to develop through all the usual channels.

With that load of old guff said I suppose:

Brothers Karamazov – Dostoyevsky – Belief is possible within a intelligent construct
The Grapes of wrath – Steinbeck – for the simply mind blowing presentation of humanity weakness
The Catcher in the Rye – Salinger – I was 17, enough said…
The Heart of Darkness – Conrad – It's unflinching look at what humans are
The Naked Lunch – Burroughs – It frightened me and made me feel very grown up understanding that if I can think it someone's probably doing it…

There's loads more but I can't be bothered listing them. The poetry of William Carlos Williams is special too though.

Had the best ride for ages over there last week – check out the ridetheclywds site – we did 'Over the top' then linked to 'Arthur two times' cutting it short by dropping down the byway descent on 'memory lane' cos it was getting dark. Dry, proper dust, singletrack, mental fast descents and hard ups = brilliant!

That is funny! I laughed most at the Bassett hound bit, that dog sounds brilliant!

Formby cycles is great but a good 45 Mins from city centre in a car as is Leisure Lakes in Tarleton. Liverpool itself is a bit short on good bike shops, there is the Giant concept shop but that's a bit rubbish and Quinns on Edge Lane leading out of the city centre but that's mainly roadie stuff and commuter specials.

Erm… I'll keep thinking…

I think the argument concerning private and public sector workers is that, very often, private sector workers are not 'required', they are the icing on the cake whereas public service workers are 'necessary' for society to function. I suppose you could argue that privatized public transport etc are necessary but then we see what an almighty cok and balls the private sector makes of them.

Private sector – in it for the money?

Public sector – in it for the…erm…public?

Oh, and if you cut my pay we'll all strike and society will collapse and you'll have to look after your own kids and perform your own surgery.

And another thing! I don't think here is a private enterprise on the same scale as public services so getting a doctor's appointment in a 'private' kind of way is never going to happen.

I for one am teaching 5% less effectively if my pay is frozen/ cut etc which would be a pretty scary thought as I reckon I'm only functioning on about 20-25% as it is…