I don’t know how you discuss the truth with someone who is so misinformed.

And his vote counts the same as yours.

Which of course is “right”, but ….

I’m stuck on this, what do we do?

Lots of anger here, and I share it.

Anger does not bode well for our future.

Is that White Cliffs pic a photoshop or did they really do it?

Then the 48% tell them to go and **** themselves when they need help.

When they 52% have the guts to step and say “sorry we made a huge mistake, you were right, let’s not do this, and I absolutely should not have voted to strip you of your rights without your consent”, I’ll be up for a bit of pulling together.

Until then, as you so eloquently put it, they can go **** themselves.

(Not going to happen though).

–angry comment redacted–.

The opportunities for UK will be unlimited if you open your mind up …

This old chestnut.

The UK already trades around the world. Is your car, phone, cooker, clothing and so on British?

And Germany does it a lot more than us. So maybe we could work at doing it as well as they do instead of pretending it’s the EU holding us back.

So May now wants a “deep and special partnership” after Brexit.

She just said that? After her behaviour the last 6 months?

She’s totally lost it hasn’t she.

It’s not about bananas guys! Not for me anyway.

busted.

I’d argue the European Parliament being based on PR is more democratic than the FPTP UK system.

and the whole free-movement of people really just ensuring that companies have a ready supply of cheap labour

I think it has flaws but the reason for it as much about enabling people to move within the community to better their lives, and ultimately iron out the peaks and troughs of inequality.

I’ve used it too – spending several years in France. Bloody loved it and am livid that opportunity is being withdrawn from our kids. No more ski seasons for you lot, go and pick some bloody cabbages, it’ll do you good.

Oh and I have French and Polish friends here in the UK, they all contribute positively, and I’d wager more than the average Brexiteer too.

@TurnerGuy

The youth probably voted more than given credit for. Though it’s hard to be sure.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

A factor with non-voters could be the polls pointing to a remain win. I’ll agree with you they should have voted, but to say non-voters de facto don’t care is invalid.

It’s worth remembering how polls most probably influenced the 2015 GE too.

He said:

no one really has much to say about the EU which is positive

After a year’s campaigning and many thousands of posts here.

He’s not saying he hears but disagrees

He’s not saying there are a range of views and perhaps remain have some points but on balance he’s for leave.

He’s saying what’s happening in front of his eyes is simply not happening. It’s just not there.

You can’t debate with that, I’d move on, better ways to spend one’s time. Let it go.

no one really has much to say about the EU which is positive

Got plenty.

Good grief, after all this time, you say that.

That’s not disagreement, that’s wilful denial.

The Labour heartlands delivered Brexit for the Country.

This is not how I see it. There were so many cohorts, and the margin was so fine, one could say any of them delivered Brexit. One could even say the non-voters delivered Brexit (I read that non voters were 2-1 remain), or the polls that influenced their non-vote delivered it.

The cohorts I think of a lot are the old – broadly leave – vs the young – broadly remain. This matters to me for 2 reasons, firstly those with less skin in the game shafted those whose best years look to be blighted by a vote to return to a golden age that never really existed, and secondly it’s a dynamic that moves measurably as the oldies fall off the end of the conveyor belt and the young join it. That could turn out to be very important.

“It is not possible to overestimate the threat the UK press poses to reaching a deal……….,” said one diplomat.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/28/brexit-uk-backing-away-from-threat-to-leave-with-no-deal-say-eu-diplomats

There, in a few words is our problem. Government by Mail, Express, Star and Telegraph.

you took back control!

It’s good to see Labour starting to move on this. Having waived through A50 unamended – which they couldn’t stop anyway – they now have a clear field to start being a pain in the ass and eventually get this stopped. (I hope this analysis has some validity!).

It’s early days. A lot can happen in 2 years.

If this was WW2, right now would be Dunkirk.

Anyone who can get to one of the events tomorrow, please do your absolute best to do so. This is nowhere near over and we’re on the right side of history.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/24/60-anniversary-european-union-stand-up-be-counted

I think for many older people a leave vote was simple a vote for the rose-tinted nostalgia of youth.

Perhaps they’re right, perhaps it was all better then, but time only goes forwards.

Someone “very close to me” voted on this basis. She did reconsider, a little, when I asked her to think what was best for her young grand-daughter’s future rather than her own past, but she’d already postal voted by then so it was too late.

More pointless EU red tape.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/europe-poised-for-total-ban-on-bee-harming-pesticides

Suck it up, British bees. That’s what winning feels like.

don’t know but I’ve presumed for a while the car factories are moving to Czech Rep., Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania or wherever. that’s one reason those guys will be vetoing the trade deal.

Well according to the leavers its a massive opportunity and wiull be great for the UK so given the bad news is flowing in I would have thought the good news would be as well?

Re the bad news they say “got to expect a little transitional turmoil”.

which are based on the UKL vehicle platform.

Are those the ones (guessing) made in the UK?

The Bobs are an issue, I suspect they don’t usually vote but they did this time and they won so they get what they want. “Simple as. End of” as they would probably say. Whether it’s for right or wrong is probably not material to them, might is right and these aren’t the kind of people to admit to a mistake.

^^ perhaps that was a bit insensitive since people are hurt and we don’t know the full facts yet. Apologies.

Maybe while they’re on lockdown the MPs can engage on some quiet reflection on the mess they’re creating for our kids.

Fair point igm, the vitriol Farage and the leaver-ultras have for Sturgeon is staggering.

Wouldn’t blame you at all for voting to break from the UK.

EU’s behaviour has been entirely reasonable IMO.

But that won’t stop the rabid press stoking up the enmity the next couple of years. They’re sharpening their pencils right now.

We’re not just winding back to 100 years ago when Germany was the enemy, we’re going back 300 when it was everyone.

thecaptain yes, there is no painless way back from where we are but that would be optimal. What I expect though is it to be pushed through, backed by Mail, Sun, Telegraph and Express and bleats of **”we won you lost get over it”, regardless of the consequences. & there’s unlikely to be a trade deal as it required 27 unanimity.

** not to forget “enemies of the people”, and “we’re going global!!!”.

Sure thanks, I realise. For “illustrative purposes”.

Yes I agree completely re FPTP. It creates a binary winner takes all outcome that doesn’t reflect the vote.

The 2015 GE:

Tory 37% vote 51% of seats
Labour 30% of vote 36% of seats
SNP 4.7% of votes 9% of votes
LDs 8% of votes 1% of seats.

Greens and UKIP were both shafted too, should have dozens of MPs each.

Edit: UKIP 13% of vote no seats – would have in the 80s on strict PR, Greens 4% of vote, 1 seat, would be in the mid twenties.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

whilst being prescribed anti-depressants to manage his anxiety from not working and ‘having no worth’.

Thank god he has his world-striding English identity to fall back on.

I think those debating on here are more politically aware than the average STWer or member of the public and its clear that the more informed you are and the less xenophobic you are the more likely you are to oppose leaving the EU

But we all get one vote. Smart or stupid, tolerant or closed, lazy or a grafter. We all get one vote.

Extrapolate it out and “democracy” is broken. When an issue comes up that actually gets the habitual non-voters out of bed and to the polling station, it gets ****ed up.

oldman is this Bob? (3 mins in).

6 kids, social housing, complaining because he can’t get a welding job to cover his costs, it’s all the immigrants fault you see?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07k7m4x/panorama-why-we-voted-to-leave-britain-speaks

In the early days I tried really hard to have empathy with the leave vote, surely I’d got it wrong and had missed something.

But then I watched that doc and it turns out they’re just a bunch of losers. My attitude hardened considerably.

But how come this forum is so misaligned with the supposed “will of the people”? That’s interesting.

Accept that things have changed for at least one or two generations.

That would be the best years of my little girl’s life then?

No. That’s my daughter’s future. They can go **** themselves.

They need to get over us not getting over it.

What is irreversible is that the country is divided and each half thinks the other are ignorant ****. I find myself aligned with the demonstrably smarter, educated, affluent and younger half. (Though I am not most of those things).

From the front page.

1. Britons still have to show passports when travelling to Europe – “free movement” is not there for us anyway.

Forsooth said leaver doth not understand ye olde free movement, confusing it with ye olde Schengen!

Doh!

Remainers know the EU has its flaws. It’s far from perfect.

But I have yet to hear a leaver agree it has any good points, or that Brexit has any drawbacks.

The fundamentalism is on the leave side.

Never trust a fundamentalist.

726 pages, so the last couple not a great sample.

Brexit statistics!