Well, tbf my current cranks aren’t that heavy — oldish RF Turbines, 560-570g for the arms and axle

If I was going to bother with something different, I’d want to get close to 400g

It’s for a gravelbike, so they don’t need to be tough, but it needs a 54mm chainline and a big chainring (42t or so)

That’s easy with Race Face, not sure about Sram. Def not possible with newer XTR cranks as the direct mount rings only go up to 38t I think

Do we need a summary list so far to help move away from the internal gears thing (yes yes I’m heavily responsible for that)

So far I’m not sure there are many answers to the question. There are a lot of arguably unnecessary standards, but few that are actually worse

Off the top of my head so far, there’s:

Internal cable routing (if this is actually a ‘standard’)
4-pot brakes
Press fit bb’s
15mm front axles

edit – I’d say make sure you do have a dropper post. Whenever you go downhill / round corners having the dropper lowered gives you way more room to move and place the bike. I’d give up my rear suspension sooner than lose my dropper post. Would possibly give up a suspension fork for rigid as well rather then lose a dropper.

Same, and I’d add my gears to that list (which I did for years)

Absolutely. They are essential for off road use on any budget or skill. In fact, the less skilled a rider the more crucial they become.

I def find droppers almost essential to enjoy a ride, but I’m not so sure about less skilled riders needing them more.

I’m known beginners before say they made no difference, which I realised was essentially as they rode with their body rigid and didn’t know how to use the space a dropper creates. So that needs to be learnt first.

They do that by ensuring you can only weigh the bike without pedals

Yep that’s my worry…

Sram seem to manage to make things that work for the same weight, so think I’ll have to look to them instead

Better still Garbaruk somehow make a 400g aluminium crankset, but again out of my budget when secondhand will be borderline impossible

Unfortunately, the massive load I put through my other leg during the injury and in the R&R period has resulted in arthritis in my other hip. FFS…

The reason I’ve got chronic insertional achilles issues on my right side is because my left ankle was already chronically wreaked…

Damn these fragile bodies

S**t, I’m similar in that I’ve had insertional achilles problems for 10 years.

Haven’t been able to run at all without majorly flaring it up for ages, nor hike anything remotely interesting.

Did so much physio over the years as I was so desperate to get back into the mountains on my feet but no luck.

Biking is fine fortunately, otherwise I don’t know what I’d do — my mental health was pushed to the limit by it as it was.

Really good luck with the recovery — I know it’s a lot of down time, not sure I could hack it myself.

TV, I recently watched Silo and it was really excellent.

Better Call Saul, if you liked Breaking Bad (it’s actually better, somehow).

Breaking Bad if you haven’t seen that.

Edit: Andor is excellent. Totally different vibe to the normal Star Wars stuff, but same universe.

I also just listened to The Expanse audiobook series (free on Galaxy Audio player). Brilliant. The TV show is good, but another thing that was discontinued for seemingly no good reason.

I think the hub gear thing is a red herring – it’s good for a very specific usage case where there are few bumps and the unsprung weight isn’t an issue.

Again though, this depends on the hub gear. My Kindernay is only ~300 grams heavier at the rear axle than Shimano SLX or Sram GX — that’s the same as adding a single Cushcore Pro

A gearbox would def be better for a full susser I’m sure

For a hardtail I’m not sure it’s so clearcut, as a Pinion adds much more to total bike weight than a light gearhub

Hmm, may not be worth it given I typically buy secondhand (£350-400 cranks are beyond me)

Little chance of finding used Era’s yet

The Sixc can be found cheap and are potentially tough, but not really worth it to save ~100g

Looking again, the Next SL or R are really the only ones that’d save a decent amount of weight

If you look second hand, you’ll be swamped with good options going cheap, as it’s a buyers market at the moment

Yea, the £40 dropper I picked up from them in the sale didn’t work either…

@squirrelking, the Rohloff A12 is kind of like a Hope Pro4 single speed hub: the end of the axle is threaded at each side and then each side takes it’s own bolt. Rohloff then need precise measurements of dropout width to make some bespoke frame inserts and/or spacers or something. A bit of a faff and it wouldn’t then fit on another frame without another bespoke refit.

From talking to a Rohloff service person at Ghyllside Cycles, I think this is because there’s not actually space for a 12mm axle to go all the way through, and making the space would require massive redesign.

Changing standards really screwed over Rohloff.

Agreed derailleurs aren’t a perfect solution, neither a rohloff’s, but they’ve both got their place.

This is the answer.

The only reason I come out defending internal gearing so much as because I think it should have a much larger place in mtb, and the main reason it doesn’t is the same reason people don’t insulate their houses when it would be cheaper in the long run, and why pensions are opt-out, and not so much performance as people typically claim.

Not having standards is a good thing. It’s why Rohloffs exist

I don’t think Rohloff would agree at all… They can’t fit a 12mm axle through their internals, that’s why fitting a Rohloff to a 142mm or 148mm rear end is a bespoke job.

Newer internal gearhubs were lucky to be able to design around a 12mm axle, and thus have simple end caps to swap between the different standards (at least, my Kindernay can take different end caps for 135mm, 142mm and 148mm; although they are stupidly expensive)

Yet again, the fact that a Rohloff can be bought second hand for half rrp and sold for the same is being ignored

In fact I would never want to buy a new Rohloff as it takes 1000s of miles to wear them in to peak efficiency — I’d rather let someone else do that

As for derailliers, it’s not just about smashing them, it’s about the lifetime in general (i.e. them developing play such that shifting is shoddy even with new chain and jockey wheels). And it’s that when they do actually smash they can wreck a wheel as well — although that has only happened to me once I think

On touring and utility bikes (and e-bikes), hub gears (and belt drives) make a lot of sense – on MTBs, especially full-sus MTBs, they’re a pain in the arse to deal with the extra lump of weight affecting everything. Gearbox setups like Pinion are better but then you’re tied to a very specific frame design.

The Kindernay 7 I have is only about 300g heavier on the rear axle than SLX or Sram GX AXS. About the same as Shimano Linkglide I think

For the Pinion, that’s why standards are needed I guess

I don’t think my math was far out there — just the simple assumption that a cassette lasts 5,000 miles with three chains, with a Rohloff sprocket and single speed chain lasting the same distance

And I’ve said it already, but my Rohloff was £550, and in a few years, it will still be worth £550

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-got-a-kindernay-internal-gearhub/

I think I’ve broken one derailleur hanger and two derailleurs in 25 years,

Derailleurs certainly never used to last me over 12 years, not sure how you are managing that

Anyway, I didn’t deny that derailleurs can be cheaper. I just pointed out that internal gearing is increasingly competitive with the prices of modern performance drivechains (or to put it another way, the payback period is dropping), to which you quoted the price of a Tourney mech. And I pointed out that mechs are inherently disposalbe systems, and you replied by bringing in car travel as a baseline!

I’ve also not denied that they’re inherently less efficient (although I reckon the differences become quite negligible if your drivechain is dirty and neglected — mine often was)

If anything, having come from many years of single-speeding, the main issue I have with internal gearing for mtb is slow engagement. Not a problem for gravel, but def noticable of techy moorland trails — the kind of terrain where my mech used to take a beating in fact

The people I work with think I’m amazing because I do a 10 km each way commute by bike on nearly flat terrain.

Well, I would suggest they aren’t the target market for a Rohloff or Pinion then.

On top of that, metal is easily recycled so it’s not the case that those old chains and cassettes are just going into landfill.

Assuming the metals actually make it to facilities, recycling and remanufacturing uses a lot of energy — why not just make something that lasts?

If I drove to work every day for a month instead of riding, that would burn more than 20 kg of petrol, so 1 kg of metal per 5,000 miles is pretty environmentally friendly compared to anyone who commutes by car.

I can’t help but think you have a grudge against internal gearing, given you’ve now brought both Tourney mechs and cars into the conversation to dismiss it.

Shimano have gone down this exact route with their Linkglide stuff, haven’t they?

That’s cool, I haven’t followed e-bike stuff at all

I’d say only a small minority of bikes sold reach a tenth of that distance. The reality is most people will never replace one cassette on a bike, let alone 20. You make a great case for long distance tourers, less so for the average.

There’s no reason a single rider has to do that many miles though, nor that the gear system has to go with the rest of the bike.

I’m a chronic bike changer, but I expect my Rohloff will just be moved onto whatever new bike I happen to think will solve all my problems next year. If not, I’ll sell it to someone else who may add a few more thousand miles on to it (it had also done thousands of miles before I bought it). Kind of like a well made steel frame, which can be bouncing around different owners for years/decades.

External gear systems are in contrast built from a collection of disposable parts.

The huge advantage to a different gearing system isn’t factored in to most people’s thinking (and certainly not corporate thinking), that is the massive reduction in material usage to ride a given distance

Those Rohloff’s that have done ~100,000 miles have likely avoided the use of about 20 cassettes, perhaps twice as many chains, and however many mechs would have broken during that time, which could total ~20 kg of metal, so around the same weight as ~8-15 hardtail frames (or there abouts)

So they may appear expensive from a conventional cost calculation when compared to lower-end performace kit like Deore, but that’s largely as resources and environmental damages remain underpriced

I’d love to see durability standards that made this point take more prominance with bike tech, but it’s not going to happen

Yeah, I get that a lot. I’m seriously thinking about giving up on this forum because I can get my points across in person but on here I say something that makes sense to me and everyone goes **** mental.

@BruceWee, fwiw I get your point and I think it’s a good one, even if you got some of the details wrong

Looks like jameso sees what you are getting at too

It does remind me of politics — the constant discourse and promises of change and doing things differently, but then just more of the same, and when something genuinely different comes along (i.e. Corbyn) everyone looses their s**t

I’ve been through tweets from the Nick guy before and found it hard to work out if it was parody

Hard to believe it’s anything else from that particular one

If they thought they could build a better bike profitably, they would be doing it.

And profitability is higher for a system with a greater need for frequent replacement of wear-and-tear parts

This seems relevant here (doesn’t really change the unsprung mass thing though)

https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/Nucleon-16-Landing-EN

@thols2, it was you that said:

I think the main argument against them is how much lighter they make your wallet. Racers won’t use them because they are less efficient.

and now you are quoting the price of a Tourney mech?!

If you want to make that argument, then we can throw £80 Sturmey Archer hubs into the mix

Edit: this is derailing the thread — I’m out of this one

I think the main argument against them is how much lighter they make your wallet.

Upfront costs are high, but cheaper than a lot of derailleur systems over their lifetime. And given that even a GX mech is £400 even the upfront cost differences are rapidly shrinking.

The answer is that the great mountain bike buying public will quite happily buy a bike that has no compatibility with what they have already, so long as it looks like what they have already.

Totally agree, this is the depressing thing

(Even worse when a similar attitude dictates politics)

It’s funny how the arguments against, say, internal gear hubs, include the simply impermissable addition of rear axle weight, yet there seems to be (almost?) no one complaining that Sram electronic mechs have added ~200g over the cable versions (nearly the weight of DT 350 rear hub!)

All this talk of boost being needed for wheel strength and clearance

I still can’t understand why my (142mm) Pipedream Sirius fits a 29 x 2.6″ in the rear with ~435mm chainstays

Nor why a lot of DT Swiss 29er Enduro rims and even Mavic Deemax 29er DH wheels are only 28 spoke

In response to the OP, I don’t think this makes boost worse, just unnecessary (I’m sure it’s marginally better)

@zerocool, I think you need to read the title again :-)

@paulrockliffe, I put a PSA up a few days back that has a few externally routed KS droppers going very cheap at Stif:

PSA: KS droppers at Stif

That Mongoose is pretty bad.

Tbr there’s not much you could do to make that look better. The On One 45650b that I ruined can actually be build to look really nice (this from Pedal Room):

In an ideal world the standard would prescribe mount position and the accompanying rotor standard the rotor position. Instead we have a standard for the mount and nothing for the rotor so the reasons that IS didn’t work great is the same reason PM falls down (albeit it’s easier to adjust PM). Until someone makes a floating caliper this will always be the case.

I think IS mount frames and forks with post mount calipers is a good solution. No ruining lowers with a cross threaded or overly long bolt (not that I’ve ever done that, but I cringe when I hear about people that have). Also made removing the brake from the forks much easier (no need to realign with reinstalling)

Yep, that Shand, and the Fargo and 410, all work very well for me

Its difficult to go wrong when starting with a well sorted steel frame

If I could find some of my older pics, I think I did succeed in making some look truly awful :-) Bash guards, over sized stems, mismatched rims, often one with a rim brake surface. They all worked though, mostly.

But I agree with you — it would def be hard to make my Soma look bad. I think what I’ve realised over the years is that, at least to my eye, simple, subtle, and symmetric is what gets me. Little things like the stem and bars aligning with the top tube.

Downsizing makes less sense with 29er wheels

I used to like small frames when younger (15-16″ seattube), despite being 5′ 10″, as I liked putting my seat super low for descending (probably got this from trials riding as a kid)

Nowadays, my butt will hit my rear wheel first anyway

@stumpy01, that looks perfect, I’ll order now :-)

A reasonable price, I guess £5 a syringe, given the Rohloff oil change syringe I also need to buy looks similar and is £4 (just with a much smaller nozzle)

That looks good @cp, thanks

Thanks @qwerty

Took me far too long to get that…

You can still protest but protest effectively. The alternative to just stop oil and extinction rebellion is not just lobby your MP.

You want to make people think and become motivated. The protest needs to make people think about the problem you want solving not the problem you are creating. Focus on the people who have power.

I agree with this logic, but look what happened when Greenpeace protested at Rishi’s (empty) house? They still received an onslaught of attacks, for different reasons.

Guess how the dutch got their cycle provision – a large part of it was mass protest

Good for them.

Thats not how we do things here though, is it? You can tut and roll your eyes like everybody else

We don’t do things here, that’s the problem