Yes, ben, but the Bible itself says we are to keep our eyes fixed upon Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith. If Christians truly did that then we wouldn’t have those sorts of things. The problem is like all humans, some Christians want everyone to think like they think, they want everyone to respect them and when they have power they use force to acheive that.

Philconsequence – to quote the great Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon ‘Defend the Bible?! I’d sooner defend a caged lion. Unleash it and it will defend itself.’

Cougar, chances are that Genesis 1 was written during the Jewish exile in Babylon. This was, for its day, a pretty scientific civilisation. Our 21st Century minds which have been heavily influenced by Greco-Roman ways of thinking are unable to cope with stories that have meaning, but are not ‘true’ in the sense we think of truth. Look back in history at what some of the great Christian writers have said about Genesis 1 and I think you’ll find it’s about a 50/50 on whether it’s meant to be literal or not.

The Christian faith isn’t about control, or at least it’s not supposed to be. Read the four Gospel accounts of the things Jesus said and did, he came to liberate not incarcerate.

To those asking which parts are meant to be true – well you read different genres of literature every single day and you can make up your mind about what you’re reading. You understand that a novel is fiction, you understand that a newspaper or history text book is someone’s version of the truth. You understand that a Haynes manual is simply a book of instructions to follow for a set task.

It’s the same with the Bible. Did the writer of the Genesis creations acounts expect them to be taken literally? I doubt it very much, so what point was he/she trying to make? Did Matthew, Mark and Luke expect their readers to believe they were reading factual accounts? Quite probably. Whereas John is more a spiritual interpretation of the events of Jesus’ life.

Just because a story isn’t ‘true’ doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a true meaning.

bencooper – your ‘Whatever’ proves poltheball’s point, you’re relying on other people’s opinions to form your own. The Bible doesn’t say anywhere when the world was created and if you’d taken the time to read it you’d know that for yourself. The two different creation stories in Genesis are not supposed to be taken literally, if you understand the context in which they were written, and the purpose for which they were written, then reducing them to ancient scientific theories is to seriously devalue them.

gonefishin – The Biblical rules on justice attempt to restrain the human desire for punishment to become revenge. Humans left to themselves strive for revenge, and so punishment becomes over the top. Take the practice of necklacing fas an extreme example, a person accused of a sometimes fairly petty crime has a tyre forced down over them and is then set alight. The book of Exodus is ostensibly about the formation of a new religious community which is supposed to stand apart ethically from it’s pagan neighbours, and so Yahweh insists that punishment is fair and not excessive. I’ve just preached my way through Exodus, so if you want to listen to some of the sermons log onto http://www.sherbornebaptist.co.uk

That’s a little unfair, as with any issue your always going to get differing views among groups of people, but most mainstream denominations believe the same basic things. Bear in mind that in the media you only see the most extreme of any religion. I’d like to think that the people in my church consider love to be the most important thing about following Christ, although some of them do seem to think that I’m a wishy washy liberal!

Meehaja, I think ministers of any denomination would be happy to answer any questions you had. Most would have at least a degree in theology and so would be used to asking tough questions of the Bible and Christianity. And if one did get huffy with you, you could always go to another one! I’ve just been discussing theology over a couple of pints of cider at the pub with a guy who’s new to it all.

Yep, but then I’m a Baptist Minister so it’s kinda my job. You got a question?

2012 Trek Fuel EX5 frame any good? 16.5 actual, 17.5 virtual. Able to handle a 130mm fork.

I remember the anaesthetist saying something like ‘It’s just going in now, count to five and you’ll be asleep.’ And me thinking ‘Yeah ri…’ Next thing I knew I was in the recovery room being woken up by a nurse. A very strange experiance, no memory of that hour at all, no dreams, nothing at all. I was tired for several weeks afterwards, especially when I exercised. Apparently the GA is absorbed into your body fat and when you metabolise the fat the GA gets into your blood stream.

The ragley ones fit a water bottle boss. They used to do single cable ones too, but can’t seem to see them now. I have some triple ones sat in the shed doing nothing. Email me if they’d be any use to you kenadolphe at hotmail dot com

Junkyard, sent you the essay. Peyote, couldn’t see your email address for some reason, mine is kenadolphe AT hotmail DOT com if you want to shoot me a line I’ll send the essay.

In answer to an above question, I spent three years at Theology College and have a degree in theology. What I find fascinating about this thread is that many contributors seem to be telling me what I believe about the Bible, homosexuality and everything else, and not only that but some people have made massive assumptions about how I came to believe what I do. It’s bad enough me banging head against a brick wall every Sunday trying to convince Christians that the Bible is supposed to be an agent for positive change and that understanding it the way we did 100 years ago or even 60 years ago isn’t neccessarily correct.

Up to about 200 years ago the Bible was used to justify slavery, yet today we use it to condemn slavery. As society’s moral and ethical code evolves so does our understanding of faith and scripture. Part of the problem that my denomination (Baptist) faces is that the majority of our members are 65+ and really struggle to hear anything new and fresh about faith. They believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and of the preachers they heard when they were in their twenties and thirties and when young ministers fresh out of Theology College start preaching different concepts they are unable to cope.

Many of the criticisms on this thread about the church are very fair and very valid, and if Christians genuinely looked at Jesus’ example and teaching, churches would be very different organisations indeed.

Can any of the Xtians on here explain why God doesn’t like gayers? I mean is he really that bothered?

emsz, no, He probably isn’t, however the last time I replied on one of these gay/christian threads I offered to send you and anyone else who was interested an essay I wrote about what the Bible says about homosexuality and marriage. I guess though that no one really wants to hear a liberal Christian view about homosexuality for some reason.

Not all Christians are anti-gay or even anti gay marriage, and as a Christian minister I completely agree with much of the criticism of Christianity on this thread. I heartily recommend ‘A new kind of Christianity’ by Brian McLaren for those who want to see what a more liberal and relevant Christian faith might look like. And the offer of reading my little essay is still open!

Cakeface, don’t suppose those Toras have V brake mounts? If so I’ll take them. kenadolphe at hotmail dot com

Well, a lot’s been said already. Firstly Baptists generally believe that the church and state should be seperate, therefore as far as I’m concerned no faith group should be able to dictate to the government how to define marriage. The four Gospels and therefore Jesus make no mention of homosexuality at all. The few times it’s mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament the words are difficult to translate and the context suggests that even if it is referring to homosexual acts it’s not referring to the types of monogomous same-sex relationships we’re talking about today.

Additionally, marriage in the Bible bears little resemblance to what we’d call ‘Christian marriage’ today. Sexuality is part of the created order and Jesus made it clear that in the afterlife we would be ‘like the angels’ and not get married.

Whilst it’s right that Jesus did say sterner things about adultery than the Old Testament, his actions towards those caught in adultery make it clear that even those Christians who do believe that homosexulaity is a sin should treat people kindly, graciously and respectfully.

In light of the above, I’m continually shocked by how much emphasis some Christians put on homosexuality and just how little emphasis they put on issues that the Bible really does bang on and on about like injustice, inequality, unfairness, greed, intolerance, materialism etc etc…

There you go that’s 4000 words condensed to about 400! Like I say, happy to email the full essay.

In light of the fact that both Jesus and the apostle Paul made it clear that their preference was for Christians not to get married or have sexual relationships at all, I wonder why so many Christians get hung up on marriage and sexuality?

If anyone’s interested in theology I’m a Baptist Minister and have just written an essay on homosexuality and marriage, and would happily email it to anyone that wants.

As long as one of you is working more than 16hrs a week you can claim working tax credits. Best bet is to phone the HMRC tax credits hotline. You’ll be on hold for ages, but in my experiance they are pretty knowledgeable and happy to answer stupid questions.